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If you're a boxer with actual potential you won't fight anyone who had even the remotest chance of beating you until you're liken 20 something and 0. Then when you get to the big time you can just start ducking anyone who could beat you because boxing has no shame.
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Apr 27, 2016 20:18
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He expended too much energy and got tired
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Sharzak posted:I'm an mma fan who has been watching some boxing lately. There seem to be a few boxers on insane win streaks--I think GGG, chocaltito and Mayweather all have 20+ wins and I could be unaware of some others. How come boxing has win streaks like this as opposed to mma where any double digit win streak is insane? Not really expecting a definitive answer but wouldn't mind people in the know articulating on it a little bit Let's look at Jon Jones. He was 7-0 when he got his first 'name' opponent in Bonnar. In boxing, he would have been given way more cans first. There also aren't any really dumb ways to get DQ'ed like in his "loss" to Hamill. So in a boxing context, Jones would be more like 36-0 (with ~13 extra can wins and a win over Hamill) rather than the 22-1 he is now. GSP's first UFC title fight came when he was 7-0, which would never happen in boxing. Meanwhile, Jones and GSP are both sitting on double-digit win streaks against reasonably high-level competition, which compares favorably with boxing greats.
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Apr 27, 2016 20:21
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This is a big hypothetical situation, but given what's been discussed for the last page or so, I am now curious. If MMA fighters could maintain the pace of competition that boxers can and frequently do, do you think you'd see more record-padding and can crushing in the higher organizations? Outside of the very highest levels where boxers start to make names for themselves and booking their fights get more involved/complicated, it feels like boxers tend to fight anywhere from every two to four months. Aside from uncommon examples like Cerrone or Magny, most people tend to have fights a little less frequently in MMA, like every four to six months. Jones fought at a very boxing-level pace in the z leagues but outside of his early title streak, he had a more reasonable amount of time between bouts. Undeniable young talent in more shallow divisions like Jones tend to be fast-tracked more often than not in the UFC, but if Dana and Co. felt they could get close to twice as many fights out of Jones and still have him end up being the record-setting youngest champion, do you think he might have fought a lot more André Gusmãos before getting other contenders like Bader?
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Apr 27, 2016 20:33
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How many boxers fight super frequently once they reach the top, though? Frankly I don't see the utility of extended record-padding in MMA. Nobody cares that Conor lost two of his first six fights. Nobody cared how many times Chael had been triangled heading into the rematch with Silva.
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Apr 27, 2016 22:01
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GGG has kind of an opposite effect as most, as he fights lower ranked competition because the best refuse to fight him, but they fight each other and lose. So his record looks good because everyone who stands a chance at beating him is ducking him, rather than the usual
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Apr 27, 2016 23:17
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Seltzer posted:Records get padded out heavily for promotional reasons. As to how and when it got to that point I don't know, but it's been the case for a long time now. To start with there's the fact that most prospects fight tons of amateur fights before they turn pro (which they might lose in) that doesn't go on their record. Most MMA fighters leap to pro fights very quickly regardless if they take place on a gambling boat in front of 20 people or not. Even after prospects have shown they are capable enough to be a top talent they still get fed a ton of cans when they turn pro and also during their peak in between actual challenging fights. It's just the nature of the business. People have become so conditioned into thinking 30-6 looks like a poo poo record in boxing that boxers and their promotional teams really pad them out. Most boxers don't actually start taking challenging fights until they've become a name/draw and are secure in taking a loss. They get to choose their own fights, they aren't matched up with someone at their skill level instantly by a central organization like the UFC. To aid in the padding of records and promotion it's worth noting that boxing is ridiculously corrupt to it's core. Judges and refs frequently favor prospects regardless of in ring action and this trickles down to the lowest levels. I watched a prospect fight a journeyman kid from philly in atlantic city about a month ago and I'm not kidding you when I say the dude from Philly won all but maybe one round and then lost on the cards as the entire arena booed. I don't even remember if this was a televised event or not. One of the things you can be glad about while watching the UFC is knowing that the bad decisions happen just because of sheer incompetence on behalf of the judges based on the number of times poo poo judging has derailed the UFCs business interests. A few of the many advantages the UFC has over boxing when it comes to promotion are that they are their own massive promotional machine, they can force the best to fight the best, and that the fans understand a 15-9 record doesn't mean someone is poo poo. For example, before her fight with Ronda, I was convinced Holly Holm was a glorified can crusher because of the stink of boxing corruption. She retired from boxing at 38-2-3, having only fought outside of Albuquerque, NM three times in her career. In front of hometown judges, the only way to win was to brutally knock her out. In this video, the referee helps her to her feet after a clear knockdown, calling it a slip; then later he untangles a clearly knocked out Holm from the ropes for an additional thirty seconds of defenseless blunt force trauma.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLZVauGJsAo  I would bet dollars to donuts those judges' cards still had her ahead. Texas Judges: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcvkUoTTU_Y
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Apr 28, 2016 00:15
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red19fire posted:For example, before her fight with Ronda, I was convinced Holly Holm was a glorified can crusher because of the stink of boxing corruption. She retired from boxing at 38-2-3, having only fought outside of Albuquerque, NM three times in her career. The Texas Athletic Commission is notably egregiously corrupt even by the standards of boxing.
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Apr 28, 2016 00:52
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david carmichael posted:GGG has kind of an opposite effect as most, as he fights lower ranked competition because the best refuse to fight him, but they fight each other and lose. So his record looks good because everyone who stands a chance at beating him is ducking him, rather than the usual it's sort of how you judge boxing rankings though. like how billy joe saunders (#3) and chris eubank (#7) are talking at a press conference and billy joe says, in front of the press, that 'golovkin would knock me and you out on the same night', that speaks more to golvkin's ability than all of his wins put together hopefully boxing starts moving more in a mma direction now. accomplished amateur vasyl lomachenko fought for a world title in his second pro fight, and his record stands at 5-1
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Apr 28, 2016 01:01
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Although record padding is a problem, a lot of coaches would tell you that getting a guy to 20-0 is an important part of developing a boxer as an athlete. They need a win in a fight that's well attended, a win against a power puncher (who gasses), a win against a guy who sucks but is going to cheat a lot, a win against a southpaw. Good managers try to give young boxers a lot of different looks as they come up and keep them away from someone who is going to ruin their confidence and give them a loss that could haunt them for years. Also, a lot of boxers have pretty extensive amateur records with loses and have been dropped in a few smokers (unsanctioned matches) so their records can be deceiving.
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Apr 28, 2016 01:08
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I guess my point is that it's a different system Also, I just realized you name dropped three of the most impressive boxers in the world today in your post. All of them earned their streaks and are generational talents.
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Apr 28, 2016 01:10
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Marching Powder posted:it's sort of how you judge boxing rankings though. like how billy joe saunders (#3) and chris eubank (#7) are talking at a press conference and billy joe says, in front of the press, that 'golovkin would knock me and you out on the same night', that speaks more to golvkin's ability than all of his wins put together I don't know if that's the best example of the system changing. Lomanchenko is like 400-1 as an amateur and has two olympic gold medals
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Apr 28, 2016 01:13
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vainman posted:I don't know if that's the best example of the system changing. Lomanchenko is like 400-1 as an amateur and has two olympic gold medals i was never asserting that that would become the norm. it's boxing.
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Apr 28, 2016 01:20
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I'm curious now, are smokers common in MMA gyms? Like is Jackson bringing in no-namers to go 100% on Saturdays? That seems like something that would have carried over from boxing and kickboxing
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Apr 28, 2016 01:25
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vainman posted:I'm curious now, are smokers common in MMA gyms? Like is Jackson bringing in no-namers to go 100% on Saturdays? That seems like something that would have carried over from boxing and kickboxing Ruke dufus is big fan
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Apr 28, 2016 02:26
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david carmichael posted:Ruke dufus is big fan lol
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Apr 28, 2016 02:38
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Speaking of vasyl lomanchenko if any if you guys haven't seen him fight you should. Super slick southpaw who's just been destroying people. He broke his left (power) hand in one fight and then still won all of the rounds with his lead hand only.
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Apr 28, 2016 07:08
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Dangersim posted:Speaking of vasyl lomanchenko if any if you guys haven't seen him fight you should. Super slick southpaw who's just been destroying people. He broke his left (power) hand in one fight and then still won all of the rounds with his lead hand only. agreed. i loved his loss against solido though. that was a perfect example of 'welcome to the pros'.
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Apr 28, 2016 07:32
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vainman posted:I'm curious now, are smokers common in MMA gyms? Like is Jackson bringing in no-namers to go 100% on Saturdays? That seems like something that would have carried over from boxing and kickboxing i did several when i trained at Duke Roufus. also when i was at smaller gyms too. the big variation is really in how hard smokers go. some gyms they still use like full headgear and shin guards and stuff but you can strike with full force, crank subs if they don't tap, etc. at duke's it was like "put your gloves on and get in there" and they basically treated it as a real fight with waaaayy worse reffing.
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Apr 28, 2016 15:42
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Marching Powder posted:agreed. i loved his loss against solido though. that was a perfect example of 'welcome to the pros'. Yeah solido roughed him up, and was cheating alot but in a way that they'll let you get away with in the pros. Still was close though and I think he probably takes a rematch without to much trouble. He seems to have learned from it, because since then when somebody fouls him he fouls them right back lol.
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Apr 28, 2016 15:59
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Smokers are a lot more important in mma than they are in boxing because most states don't have a well developed (or, often, existent) amateur system for mma.
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Apr 28, 2016 16:56
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fatherdog posted:Smokers are a lot more important in mma than they are in boxing because most states don't have a well developed (or, often, existent) amateur system for mma. this is also true. one of the gyms i trained at sent people to these goofy pankration tournaments where you weren't allowed to strike the head at all because it was one of the only places to get competition experience in an mma-ish environment.
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Apr 28, 2016 18:26
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UFC records are typically the opposite of padded because they have an up and out policy where typically winners match up with winners and every fight is against someone higher ranked until you get to the tile. Meanwhile,quote:Following Saúl Álvarez's victory against Miguel Cotto, talks began between the Golovkin and Alvarez camps over the future WBC title defense. In the end, an agreement was ultimately reached to allow interim bouts before the fight to, in the words of WBC president Mauricio Sulaiman, "maximize the interest in their highly anticipated showdown."[30] That kind of stuff doesn't happen in MMA/UFC, mostly. The "ok let's go off for a year and fight some cans to build up some interest before doing the real fight" isn't something that the UFC is interested in (or most fans, for the matter).
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Apr 28, 2016 21:41
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Dangersim posted:Speaking of vasyl lomanchenko if any if you guys haven't seen him fight you should. Super slick southpaw who's just been destroying people. He broke his left (power) hand in one fight and then still won all of the rounds with his lead hand only. Oh yeah, I don't watch much boxing but I remember that guy because he had a cool undercard fight before Mayweather/Pac.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:44
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So why the hell do boxing fans put up with long can-crushing runs to build up a superfight?
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Apr 28, 2016 22:37
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:this is also true. one of the gyms i trained at sent people to these goofy pankration tournaments where you weren't allowed to strike the head at all because it was one of the only places to get competition experience in an mma-ish environment. I went to one of those once and saw my MT instructor throw about 30 leg kicks into this dudes leg from the jump and folded the guy inside about 10 seconds. It looked like something out of a bad movie. Just walked out, saw the dude was like 0 danger on the feet, threw a hard one, dropped his leg into a lead position and just torqued a whole bunch more into him.
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Apr 29, 2016 00:11
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Ditch posted:So why the hell do boxing fans put up with long can-crushing runs to build up a superfight? The wait is invigorating
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Apr 29, 2016 00:21
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Ditch posted:So why the hell do boxing fans put up with long can-crushing runs to build up a superfight? Conditioning. Also people still watch Barcelona vs Getafe or the Warriors vs the Lakers etc. A lot of people enjoy watching their fighter/team blowout the competition even if it's a foregone conclusion. I'd rather boxers be fighting others at their level like in the ufc but I've still definitely tuned in to watch GGG dismantle a no name before. Seltzer fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 00:26
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Ditch posted:So why the hell do boxing fans put up with long can-crushing runs to build up a superfight? just in my super limited experience it's much more fun to watch a really good boxer beat the poo poo out of a pretty good boxer than it is to watch a really good fighter beat the poo poo out of a pretty good fighter. a one sided mma fight can be pretty boring but a one sided boxing match is kind of amazing
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Apr 29, 2016 03:31
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It's sad how boxing used to be a bunch of fun to watch twenty years ago and now it's just junk. Klitschko is so God damned boring it's hard to comprehend and he only just lost to a giant British retarded person. In nineteen Klitscko fights I really can't think of a "Holy poo poo!" moment. Boxing is so very watered down and has too many weight classes that it's very hard to give a gently caress. I'll watch old videos from the 80's or even ancient stuff like Willie Pep and really enjoy it. I wonder what the sport needs to be truly rejuvenated.
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Apr 29, 2016 04:07
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Captain Log posted:It's sad how boxing used to be a bunch of fun to watch twenty years ago and now it's just junk. Klitschko is so God damned boring it's hard to comprehend and he only just lost to a giant British retarded person. In nineteen Klitscko fights I really can't think of a "Holy poo poo!" moment. Boxing is so very watered down and has too many weight classes that it's very hard to give a gently caress. I'll watch old videos from the 80's or even ancient stuff like Willie Pep and really enjoy it. I wonder what the sport needs to be truly rejuvenated. I dunno. He had that one a few back where the guy caught him clean and he stepped out, scowled at the guy, and just knocked him out with his next attack as if he had been free to put the guy down at any moment in the entire fight and just decided to end it there. It was amazing in a vacuum but the more I think about it I get angry that he only did it that one time instead of in every fight.
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Apr 29, 2016 04:14
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there needs to be a perfect storm of watchable killers actually fighting a string of competent people deluded enough to think they could win. look what's happening in middleweight at the moment. the people ggg fights look like they're en route to an execution and the one guy who could make him a superstar is a welterweight with no conceivable reason to fight him.
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Apr 29, 2016 04:19
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Actually the answer is unlike MMA where you kinda keep your finger on the pulse year round, in Boxing you literally don't give a poo poo about anything other than the 2 or 3 big fights in a year, and maybe watch replays of a good fight or three.
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Apr 29, 2016 04:30
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The big thing is that UFC is a monopoly whereas boxing is a free market. UFC does poorly they lose market share and viewers, and possibly allows rivals to compete. Boxing does poorly they don't care they get purses and payments on guarantees. McGregor thought he was Floyd Mayweather and look how that turned out.
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May 2, 2016 08:57
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Sometimes I'll go on hour long binges watching old boxing on Youtube and just think, "Jesus, what the gently caress happened?" It's shocking how lovely it is.
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May 6, 2016 04:28
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i don't know where to put this, so it's going here. sensei steven seagal is doing an AMA over at reddit. they asked him alright, but he's not really answering. "What kind of pants were you wearing when Gene LeBell choked you unconscious and caused you to poo poo your pants? " "Hey there! I went to the same jr. high school as you in Fullerton, CA (many years later). Heard some stories. The one I would like to ask you about is when your social studies teacher caught you stealing lunch money from a kid in a wheel chair. True? (I didn't make this up)" "I live in Vancouver and know a ton of people who have worked on films with you. Is it true you insist on blocking many scenes so you can be sitting the whole time because you're too lazy to stand up? Is it true you insist that productions hire someone to hold a card to properly shadow your horrific neck fat? Is it true you're an unbearable dick who bullies everyone on set and acts like you're an A-list star, even though you're starring in a lovely C-list movie? " "Hey Steve, what exactly happened to you during your kidnapping by the Gambino family in 2001?" "Any regrets about driving that loving tank into a guys house and killing his dog? http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/03/23/134803230/arizona-sheriff-uses-a-tank-to-arrest-cockfighting-suspect " "Do you feel remorse for physically assaulting your ex-wife? Does it conflict with your current job as a police officer? " and many, many more. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4i0jso/i_am_actor_steven_seagal_live_from_thailand_ama/
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May 6, 2016 04:46
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Captain Log posted:Sometimes I'll go on hour long binges watching old boxing on Youtube and just think, "Jesus, what the gently caress happened?" I'm not going to tell you how to enjoy sports but I feel like every year I see a fight and like a goldfish go 'that's the best fight I've ever seen'. What do you think the 80s had that today doesn't?
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May 6, 2016 14:43
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Old boxing is loving great what the hell
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May 6, 2016 17:54
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Well yeah, because you're generally cherry picking the best fights from a 50 year televised history. Great fights happen all the time
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May 6, 2016 18:13
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Yeah but who watches old bad fights
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May 6, 2016 18:37
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Dangersim posted:Yeah but who watches old bad fights 
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May 6, 2016 18:39
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