Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
savinhill
Mar 28, 2010
With how well they translated Punisher and Elektra to the screen, my hopes are high that they can make an awesome Bullseye in the next season.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
I think the flipside to the Punisher as a power fantasy is that the series also makes no bones about the fact that Frank Castle is a broken, miserable man whose ability to have anything resembling a home, family, career, or otherwise a normal life has been destroyed. You might admire the Punisher from a safe distance, if you don't trip his hair-trigger temper. You might think that ultimately he's a good thing for the city. But Jesus Christ you do not want to be the Punisher.

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005

Cythereal posted:

I think the flipside to the Punisher as a power fantasy is that the series also makes no bones about the fact that Frank Castle is a broken, miserable man whose ability to have anything resembling a home, family, career, or otherwise a normal life has been destroyed. You might admire the Punisher from a safe distance, if you don't trip his hair-trigger temper. You might think that ultimately he's a good thing for the city. But Jesus Christ you do not want to be the Punisher.

No see, Frank has this magical ability to divine who deserves to die and who doesn't. And if you don't deserve to die, you won't die, even if you are directly in the line of fire.

I overall thought the Punisher story was much better than the Hand but that whole conversation of Frank not intending to hit Karen and so she wouldn't have been hurt was just loving dumb. Its almost like halfway through the season they got wind that the Punisher might get his own series so they decided no one could ever get caught in the crossfire.

LegalPad
Oct 23, 2013

Vigilantism is a big theme in DD, but it's funny because the negatives are presented wholly as being philosophical rather than practical. For all the morality tension at play, the show seems to show us nothing but 100% black/white scenarios where vigilantism is a-okay and our violent heroes remain heroes. It would be interesting if the Punisher accidentally kills innocent people and than sees the parallel to what he's done with how his family died in crossfire.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




The Punisher's accuracy switches between Stormtrooper and aimbot depending on how guilty you are.

If you've lived a life free of sin then the bullets will aim around you after you step off the wall so there's a person shaped outline of bullet holes where you were standing.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

RareAcumen posted:

The Punisher's accuracy switches between Stormtrooper and aimbot depending on how guilty you are.

If you've lived a life free of sin then the bullets will aim around you after you step off the wall so there's a person shaped outline of bullet holes where you were standing.

That or a life of such sin that the Punisher is just loving with you for his own personal entertainment before making the kill shot.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

The Hand ninjas didn't bother me. I totally agree that they were faceless proxies for DD to punch but so were the Russians in S1. DD had only a handful of fights of true consequence in S1 while most of the rest were just him running a gauntlet of beating up random nobodies as he fought against exhaustion or time or being caught or some other outside factor.

Which is why the simplicity of the Hand plot didn't bother me because it felt like just a setting for the bigger stuff DD was dealing with as he struggled with his "vigilante vs person" dilemma, and trying to keep his father figure and his quasi "soul mate" from killing each other and wrestling with all the moral stuff Frank, Elektra, and Stick were throwing at him while Foggy and Karen were piling on. The Hand were just there to push DD to his physical limits while he dealt with all this stuff and push him into tough places with all these people he cares for.

I totally get why someone might not have liked it but for me it played very similarly to the Russians and Madame Gao in S1 who were kind of just there to be obstacles. I guess the big difference is that S1 ultimately had a main villain in Fisk that DD was fighting past those obstacles to get to while in S2 he's just fighting past the Hand to try and get some stability to his life. But I was ok with that change because Matt's kind of a crazy person and spending a season really dealing with him trying to deal with the consequences of that was cool with me.

I think I would have been less satisfied if S2 just had another Fisk type storyline that just felt like a repeat.

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001

When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

While I'd be completely down for a Banshee-style nonstop torrent of violent madness, I'd also like to see the Punisher series explore the consequences, both internal and external to Frank, of him loving up and accidentally murdering someone who's unequivocally innocent.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

STAC Goat posted:

Which is why the simplicity of the Hand plot didn't bother me because it felt like just a setting for the bigger stuff DD was dealing with as he struggled with his "vigilante vs person" dilemma, and trying to keep his father figure and his quasi "soul mate" from killing each other and wrestling with all the moral stuff Frank, Elektra, and Stick were throwing at him while Foggy and Karen were piling on. The Hand were just there to push DD to his physical limits while he dealt with all this stuff and push him into tough places with all these people he cares for.

Yeah, I agree completely. I think a lot of the problems arise when you try to compare them 1:1 to other villains, or even Fisk. Fisk was the conflict in season one, the conflict in season 2 part 2 isn't "fighting ninjas" it's dealing with internal poo poo and Elektra.

The ninjas were more of an implacable force to be overcome rather than a complex villain. That function was fulfilled by Elektra.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

savinhill posted:

With how well they translated Punisher and Elektra to the screen, my hopes are high that they can make an awesome Bullseye in the next season.

Now you're talking.

For he record, I didn't HATE the Hand stuff in S2, it was just the weakest part. I've always found the ninja stuff the weakest parts of the comics too so maybe I just like ninjas much.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

notthegoatseguy posted:

No see, Frank has this magical ability to divine who deserves to die and who doesn't. And if you don't deserve to die, you won't die, even if you are directly in the line of fire.

I overall thought the Punisher story was much better than the Hand but that whole conversation of Frank not intending to hit Karen and so she wouldn't have been hurt was just loving dumb. Its almost like halfway through the season they got wind that the Punisher might get his own series so they decided no one could ever get caught in the crossfire.

How loving hard do you think it is to shoot a gun? It's not like he's balancing a machine gun against his erection and just wildly spraying it about as it thumps against him. He's a man that fundamentally does not care if he lives or dies that had some pretty high level training in using the things, he can take the time to aim. 90% of the time he jumps groups of criminals in their club houses or in the middle of nowhere, it's not like he just runs up to them in broad daylight and starts ejaculating bullets. I don't know why people expect he'd be dropping innocent bodies all over the place, he's not some scared and possibly racist homeowner jumping out on their porch and mag dumping into a car because it was playing loud rap music.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Boogaleeboo posted:

How loving hard do you think it is to shoot a gun? It's not like he's balancing a machine gun against his erection and just wildly spraying it about as it thumps against him. He's a man that fundamentally does not care if he lives or dies that had some pretty high level training in using the things, he can take the time to aim. 90% of the time he jumps groups of criminals in their club houses or in the middle of nowhere, it's not like he just runs up to them in broad daylight and starts ejaculating bullets. I don't know why people expect he'd be dropping innocent bodies all over the place, he's not some scared and possibly racist homeowner jumping out on their porch and mag dumping into a car because it was playing loud rap music.

Source your quotes

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK
Now that I think about it, is it too much to ask that we get at least one instance of Colleen Wing sighing as she draws her katana?

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

Source your quotes

The real Second Amendment, that lives in your heart.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Gyges posted:

Now that I think about it, is it too much to ask that we get at least one instance of Colleen Wing sighing as she draws her katana?

She's going to be in Iron Fist so you'll probably get your wish.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




howe_sam posted:

She's going to be in Iron Fist so you'll probably get your wish.

I hope that there'll be tons of cherry blossoms.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007

Cythereal posted:

I think the show was trying to keep the ninjas mysterious, present without anyone figuring out what they were up to outside of Stick and friends - an outside context villain, or maybe a villain that belongs in a context that Murdock actively avoids, and Foggy and Karin and Frank are completely ignorant of.

Yeah, pretty much. Stick makes it clear that there's a war coming, and it will happen whether Matt accepts it and fights in it or not. That's why the blood draining tanks were important as symbolism: it wasn't explained what they were for, Matt tried to disrupt them in his own ignorant street vigilante way, seemingly "rescued" the "victims", but then was completely surprised when the "victims" ran back to their "captors." That was the writers' way of saying "this thing is much bigger than Matt."

quote:

Which in turn leads to the execution problem: Nobu was more mysterious and threatening in one episode in season 1 than every ninja combined over the entire season in 2.

I think the execution problem was simpler than that: the first half of the season was too grounded in reality and provided an explanation and hard evidence for everything involving Frank, and so the second half just felt... off.

Dilbert Fanclub President
Oct 21, 2015

by Reene
I think the easiest solution to dd s2 would be to reverse the hand and punisher storylines. Spend the first half of the season with the Elektra backstory and ninjas, suddenly during a huge ninja fight, someone starts picking off the ninjas, setting up the Frank Castle stuff in the second half. Last scene of the season should have been Frank walking out of prison.

Eggplant Squire
Aug 14, 2003


This is a minor issue I guess but I wish getting Frank out of prison was more complicated. If all it takes to bust incredibly violent and public criminals out of maximum security is to bribe the guards who just let you leave there's a severe problem that Daredevil isn't prepared to deal with, especially with his idea that the system works at all.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Well that's the point. Its the entire debate Matt has with Frank and Elektra. The basis of Fisk's threat. The entire system is broken. He says "Everything I accomplish with the law gets undone." Remember, he ends the season with Nelson and Murdock broken up and Matt all but abandoning the law. He might have run off with Elektra if she hadn't died. Hell, he was all but teaming up with The Punisher by the end. Matt's whole world view has fallen apart even without factoring in the realization that there's magic ninja cults that bring people back from the dead.

Eggplant Squire
Aug 14, 2003


Yeah I guess. I don't quite think they intended to portray the system as absolutely useless as it was, just that it wasn't perfect. I hope the next season makes it a little less one sided on that debate since I don't want it to turn into Batman where he's the only thing keeping the city from turning into a hell-scape run by super criminals.

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!
Well, given the way S2 ended, I figure S3 is going to revolve around Fisk outing Murdock as Daredevil in a nice parallel to Murdock and crew outing Fisk in S1.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Well I wonder how it all ends up coming together in Defenders. I think we'll probably get a better sense of that when Luke Cage comes out, since then we'll see what kind of bad guys he's fighting and how it connects back to DD and Jessica Jones. It's possible that the series will end up connecting in the general corruption and problems of Hell's Kitchen/NY. Maybe not, since JJ just mostly dealt with a stand alone super villain so Defenders could just go that way too. But we're really only half way into the bigger picture so could see it being a bigger problem the Defenders deal with.

Or it could just be DD's mess as a lawyer and to that end I don't feel like all is hopeless. Murdock is a notably unfunded lawyer fighting a notably powerful force in Fisk. It's a bad run. Just based on the principles of the character eventually he'll come back to the law and manage to make some differences. And really, stopping Fisk last season cleaned up a lot of messes that Matt just wasn't seeing because his world was falling apart. You have Brett being promoted in a cleaner NYPD and presumably a bunch of a people and businesses not being torn down by Fisk. But from Matt's perspective all he can see is Fisk still wielding power and Frank getting loose and Nobu still being alive and Gao still being in the city. But it's basically DD's character to be ridden with Catholic guilt over his failures and not be able to see his successes.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Radish posted:

I don't quite think they intended to portray the system as absolutely useless as it was...

Sure they did. It's been part of the larger theme of both seasons and the catalyst for Matt's conflicts about the boundaries of vigilantism.

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001

When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

I don't know anything about these IPs, does Luke Cage have any interesting villains that can carry his season like Fisk or Kilgrave?

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.

Wheeee posted:

I don't know anything about these IPs, does Luke Cage have any interesting villains that can carry his season like Fisk or Kilgrave?

Yes. Racism.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Also pimps and dealers on his streets.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry
Tobias Whale

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

Glass Ceilings

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK
I believe his first foes were the prison industrial complex and corrupt officials. Luckily he was able to take advantage of illegal human medical experimentation being done on prisoners to overcome the odds.

I'm kind of worried that I'm starting to expect too much out of Netflix Marvel's Luke Cage though.

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!
I know Alfre Woodard was cast as Black Mariah, still my favorite punny villain name, and I want to say Diamondback was cast too. Though I don't know if he's his original villain self or not.

ShakeZula
Jun 17, 2003

Nobody move and nobody gets hurt.

Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

I know Alfre Woodard was cast as Black Mariah, still my favorite punny villain name, and I want to say Diamondback was cast too. Though I don't know if he's his original villain self or not.

As a sign of how little the movie division cares about the TV division, Woodard was also in Civil War as a different character. Nothing huge, basically just a cameo, but they went out and got her for a job a lesser actress could pull off.

Unless Black Mariah also secretly works at the State Department.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.
That's a good question. Cage doesn't. really have a rogues gallery. I used to read Heroes for Hire/Power Man and Iron Fist and can't remember one villain.

I do remember really liking Kerry Gammill's art as a 14 or 15 year old.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.

kingcom posted:

Glass Ceilings

No, they're using him for Jessica Jones season 2.

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!

ShakeZula posted:

As a sign of how little the movie division cares about the TV division, Woodard was also in Civil War as a different character. Nothing huge, basically just a cameo, but they went out and got her for a job a lesser actress could pull off.

Unless Black Mariah also secretly works at the State Department.

Given the plot of the movie, I wouldn't put it past Zemo to have paid Black Mariah to pretend to be a state department employee to push Stark closer to the registration side.

Four Score
Feb 27, 2014

by zen death robot
Lipstick Apathy
I will watch this show forever if zombie/child soldier ninjas who can ressurect the dead causes Matt to abandon his stupid Catholic bent

hollylolly
Jun 5, 2009

Do you like superheroes? Check out my CYOA Mutants: Uprising

How about weird historical fiction? Try Vampires of the Caribbean

People with supernatural abilities who are also deeply religious are actually really fascinating to me. Faith is ...just faith.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




I just want to remind people that Fisk smashing Matts face into the table was a reallllllllllly good.

Four Score
Feb 27, 2014

by zen death robot
Lipstick Apathy
Jesus can't even actually turn the wine into his blood and the bread into his body, but some rear end in a top hat gimp surgeon just says "By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggarth!" and bam magic, I know who I'm worshipping

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Zythrst
May 31, 2011

Time to join a revolution son, its going to be yooge!

Wheeee posted:

I don't know anything about these IPs, does Luke Cage have any interesting villains that can carry his season like Fisk or Kilgrave?

Mr. Fish

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply