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He dies in the comic version of Civil War. That comic was bad and best ignored though. The only parts I enjoyed was the X - Men telling Tony to eat poo poo, Punisher joining Cap and IMMEDIATELY murdering people on their own side and promptly getting his rear end kicked by Cap, and J Jonah Jameson suing Peter Parker for every photo he has sold to the newspaper. Renoistic fucked around with this message at 16:59 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 16:55
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MacheteZombie posted:Or was forced to ignore Tony's orders because a group of people aren't just going to ignore the guy hanging out shooting webs at people. That could have happened had Pete stayed put, but the first thing he does after the fight breaks out and Tony reminds him of his instructions is drop-kicking Winter Soldier through the window, putting himself square in the middle of the action. I believe Tony thought of Pajama-man's web shooters when Widow asked how they were going to stop Cap's team. They were the first thing he asked about after getting Parker alone. He saw in Spider-Man a way to tip the scales in his favor without escalating to more lethal force, and he just didn't fully think through the consequences because, well... he's Tony Stark.
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May 9, 2016 16:55
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Bottom Liner posted:This is a rambling mess of words, but " a young Spider Man works because Tony is at least trying to deal with his mortality and responsibility for the future" is especially stupid since it shows his willingness to bring in a literal child soldier to win a battle because his ego can't stand to lose or be wrong. I didn't say he was good at it. Like, I could easily see his relationship with a surrogate child being ruined by Tony seeing them as an extention of himself at this point. I'll cop to it being a rambling mess of words though.
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May 9, 2016 17:01
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Renoistic posted:He dies in the comic version of Civil War. That comic was bad and best ignored though. How in the gently caress did Thor beating the ever living poo poo out of Tony after Tony Cloned him not make the list. 
Dexo fucked around with this message at 17:06 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 17:01
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Dexo posted:How in the gently caress did Thor beating the ever living poo poo out of Tony after Tony Cloned him not make the list. It was a long time since I read it. I thought that was after Civil War ended? Another good one is Invisible Woman leaving Reed Richards for Namor 
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May 9, 2016 17:05
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Toilet Mouth posted:I haven't seen this, but I hear Captain America is still alive. Isn't he supposed to die at some point? A good many of these characters should be extremely dead, simply because they've exhausted their utility. There's no good reason to have, like, five versions of Captain America running around along with six Iron Mans(?).
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May 9, 2016 17:06
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Renoistic posted:He dies in the comic version of Civil War. That comic was bad and best ignored though. He doesn't die in Civil War. The end of Civil War is him surrendering because of the destruction being caused by the war. It's a pretty good comic with some jank bits.
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May 9, 2016 17:08
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Dexo posted:How in the gently caress did Thor beating the ever living poo poo out of Tony after Tony Cloned him not make the list. This is another one of those things that Millar is good at that the movies skirt around. His version of Vision is the Clone Thor, a total perversity of The Avengers but right in line with Tony thinks he should be able to do.
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May 9, 2016 17:08
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Dexo posted:How in the gently caress did Thor beating the ever living poo poo out of Tony after Tony Cloned him not make the list.
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May 9, 2016 17:09
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Jenny Angel posted:Something I really appreciated about that scene is that when Spider-Man presents his motivations for being a superhero, they're way more in line with what Cap's been saying - if you have these abilities and you don't act, you're guilty by negligence, etc. This is Tony Stark's motivation for being Iron Man. He put on the armor in IM1 because people were dying and he had the power to stop it - so he did. In IM3, he puts on the armor again because people are furious that he's not doing anything about the initial Mandarin attacks. Everything in Age of Ultron is about Tony's sense of responsibility - the part of Wanda's vision that drove Tony completely over the edge wasn't simply that the Avengers failed, but that they failed because Tony personally didn't do enough. Cap is just a man who can't stop fighting even when fighting isn't the right thing to do. Remember that the deepest fear in his psyche, shown by Wanda, is victory: being a supersoldier without a war to fight. Spiderman, in Tony's eyes, is a young man much like him - without the scars and the weight of the world on his shoulders, who can be taught to be a hero without making the mistakes Tony has.
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May 9, 2016 17:10
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FutonForensic posted:The only thing this movie did well was shots of people falling. There are like six "dude from Titanic hitting the propeller" moments in this movie. To the point where I kept expecting it to happen more often even.
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May 9, 2016 17:18
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I'm surprised that more people aren't picking up on the point that the Accords would actually have made The Avengers more powerful, by being legitimized, not less. As long as people like Tony are around to weasel around the legalese involved, there's no significant problem caused by them at all. Captain America's stance is as pointlessly rebellious as people who legitimately want Texas to secede. edit: And I suppose if I gave the writers more credit, intentionally making Steve Rogers essentially an international redneck is pretty clever precision fucked around with this message at 17:25 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 17:22
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The Accord doesn't really solve the actual issue, that the powers of superheroes is so vast and overwhelming that they can't avoid causing causalities and destroying entire cities. The problem was never that they operated with no oversight, going where they wanted without permission and ignoring international law. Most of the problem wasn't really the Avengers at all but the bad guys throughout the movies.
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May 9, 2016 17:27
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Civilian casualties happen in war and law enforcement. Even the destruction of entire cities for the wrong reasons. For a group of private citizens employed by an energy company to just decide to go fight these battles is definitely a problem in and of itself.
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May 9, 2016 17:46
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:This is another one of those things that Millar is good at that the movies skirt around. His version of Vision is the Clone Thor, a total perversity of The Avengers but right in line with Tony thinks he should be able to do. That was written by Straczynski, who is much better than Millar. Probably a side effect of the year long, crossover format of Civil War, but a lot of the "iconic" things people remember about it (specifically Cap dying and Thor beating the stuffing out of Iron Man) didn't even happen during the time frame of the actual mini-series. Even more of those moments were in crossover comics and not the central "Civil War" title. (oh just realized you might be talking about Millar's Clone Thor being a good representation of what Tony thinks he has a right to do, which is a really good observation)
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May 9, 2016 17:52
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Yeah, that's the real Thor.
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May 9, 2016 17:56
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What percent of these movies have a threat that would not have happened if none of the avengers had ever been born?
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May 9, 2016 18:06
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The MCU hasn't really offered any politicians or decision-makers that seem suited to being in charge. They're all secret hydras or schemers. Everyone is a villain. The Avengers are bad guys. The bad guys are bad guys. The politicians are bad guys. The perfect robot that was created to do a better job was a bad guy. No one seems qualified to decide when to act - I can understand Captain America not wanting to put the Avengers decision making in the hands of people who chose to nuke NYC about 14 minutes after some lizards killed 78 people or whatever. Imagine what they'd want Vision to do. Maybe Vision becomes president in Avengers 6.
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May 9, 2016 18:08
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Maybe Cap runs for president.
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May 9, 2016 18:09
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They'd have a hard time getting a movie plot out of Vision because that poor guy gets dealt such a crappy hand over and over again. His teammates tend to denigrate his humanity without even thinking about it, then his wife goes totally bonkers.
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May 9, 2016 18:12
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:What percent of these movies have a threat that would not have happened if none of the avengers had ever been born? Avengers 1 would still have happened so the world would have been destroyed either way.
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May 9, 2016 18:13
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I said come in! posted:Avengers 1 would still have happened so the world would have been destroyed either way. Would it though? If Thor hadn't have been born, would Loki have been raised with more love and not become a total sleazebag?
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May 9, 2016 18:16
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I said come in! posted:Avengers 1 would still have happened so the world would have been destroyed either way. Loki's whole emo life is based on being mad thor was born. Without thor he'd be content poorly ruling asgard.
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May 9, 2016 18:20
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I said come in! posted:Avengers 1 would still have happened so the world would have been destroyed either way. Loki didn't want to destroy the world. He wanted to rule it and walk around in his fancy hat while everyone bows to him, or something like that. However without the Avengers, Thanos would presumably end all life some time in 2019.
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May 9, 2016 18:22
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MacheteZombie posted:Would it though? If Thor hadn't have been born, would Loki have been raised with more love and not become a total sleazebag? Whoops, yeah I saw the flaw in that after the fact. Would Thanos have just found someone else then? Or would earth even be on his radar if it wasn't for super heroes? What about Hydra and their plans for world domination?
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May 9, 2016 18:22
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I said come in! posted:Avengers 1 would still have happened so the world would have been destroyed either way.
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May 9, 2016 18:23
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MacheteZombie posted:Would it though? If Thor hadn't have been born, would Loki have been raised with more love and not become a total sleazebag? Doesn't that have more to do with Odin being a lovely dad and not raising both sons with equal love and care? Also Thanos still exists and as long as earth has at least one infinity stone (like the Tesseract?) then earth was boned anyway. Also we'd currently be living under the iron heel of the Red Skull if Steve Rogers was never born.
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May 9, 2016 18:24
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:What percent of these movies have a threat that would not have happened if none of the avengers had ever been born? I'd say: Threat exists regardless (5): Hulk, Cap 1, Ant-Man, GotG, Thor 2 Threat created by hero (4): IM1+2, Avengers 2, Cap 3 Uncertain (4): IM3 - stark created villain by refusing to fund his work - if there's no Tony who knows how that plays out. Thor/Avengers 1 - same deal, if Thor isn't there presumably Loki becomes the benevolent leader of Asgard without the jealousy? but maybe he's still a dick. Cap 2 - do super people accelerate plans of Rob Redford, or does that happen regardless? Or does Red Skull just run the country without Cap being around to kill him? Hard to say. e: beaten on most of these.
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May 9, 2016 18:24
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm pretty sure if Steve Rogers hadn't been born, the world would have been a super-Nazi dictatorship (or more likely a smoking ruin) by that point. Yeah, that is what I was just thinking of in my last post. It seems like there are enough events that are not related to the existence of super heroes that would have ruined the world or galaxy. Ronan would have also gone on a super genocidal crusade without the Guardians of the Galaxy.
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May 9, 2016 18:26
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I said come in! posted:Whoops, yeah I saw the flaw in that after the fact. Would Thanos have just found someone else then? Or would earth even be on his radar if it wasn't for super heroes? What about Hydra and their plans for world domination? The Tesseract would still be on Earth and Thanos would be hunting it. (Cap 1 plot) Halloween Jack posted:I'm pretty sure if Steve Rogers hadn't been born, the world would have been a super-Nazi dictatorship (or more likely a smoking ruin) by that point. This is a good point. Red Skull's plan would have succeeded and we'd be a hell hole planet. Thanos would still come for the Tesseract though, probably sooner than modern day. e: I had forgotten the Tesseract was part of Cap 1's plot, was thinking it was from Thor 1.
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May 9, 2016 18:27
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I never bothered to dig into the political/philosophical underpinnings of Iron Man 3, but holding Tony Stark responsible for creating Extremis by not being a venture capitalist funding a tech startup is a pretty nasty Catch-22 to put him in, non?Bob Quixote posted:Also Thanos still exists and as long as earth has at least one infinity stone (like the Tesseract?) then earth was boned anyway.
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May 9, 2016 18:28
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MacheteZombie posted:The Tesseract would still be on Earth and Thanos would be hunting it. (Cap 1 plot) Hydra would no doubt fight Thanos but I assume they would lose horribly.
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May 9, 2016 18:29
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I said come in! posted:Hydra would no doubt fight Thanos but I assume they would lose horribly. Well yeah, they couldn't even beat some kid from Brooklyn.
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May 9, 2016 18:31
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Loki never would have ruled Asgard, Thor or no Thor. Odin would never suffer a jotun to sit the throne.
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May 9, 2016 18:33
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I said come in! posted:Hydra would no doubt fight Thanos but I assume they would lose horribly.
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May 9, 2016 18:40
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Really enjoyed this movie. Sad that all the build-up in WS of Oh poo poo Brock Rumlow Is Still Alive turned out to be Crossbones getting chumped in the opening scene I liked the very end bit with Tony sitting defeated and broken on the ground, and yelling that the shield doesn't belong to Cap My favorite Marvel movies are the ones without a big stupid antagonist that gets to show how Dastardly they are in every other scene.
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May 9, 2016 18:42
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It's because heroes and villains are more interesting if they have some connection and having the same source lets people fight a mirror match of good vs evil versions of a power but it really is a universe where almost every villain is created in some way by the heroes or by the heroes parents (or antman and his science dad). Captain America seems like the only thing in the whole MCU that is fixing problems that don't stem directly from himself somehow.
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May 9, 2016 18:42
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I said come in! posted:Hydra would no doubt fight Thanos but I assume they would lose horribly. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Captain America seems like the only thing in the whole MCU that is fixing problems that don't stem directly from himself somehow. Red Skull only got his powers when one of his henchmen stole the Super Soldier Serum, if there was no Captain America then there probably wasn't any super soldier program so there probably wouldn't be any Red Skull and without him there wouldn't have been any Hydra.
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May 9, 2016 18:46
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The aftermath of the Civil War arc was worse. There was this Fifty States Initiative where the government literally press ganged superhumans into a superhero training camp. They press ganged this juvenile girl who wasn't involved in any crime or vigilantism and turned her into a sniper assassin. That was just the weirdest poo poo. Civil War asked a good question but came up with a stupid answer. Thank God the writers of this movie saw sense and lowered the stakes to something more believable. In this movie, Cap isn't really fighting an ideological battle, he just decides he that he has to go rogue this one time in order to save the world.
Kurzon fucked around with this message at 18:51 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 18:46
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Red Skull only got his powers when one of his henchmen stole the Super Soldier Serum, if there was no Captain America then there probably wasn't any super soldier program so there probably wouldn't be any Red Skull and without him there wouldn't have been any Hydra. I don't think that's right. Erksine made the first formula while in Germany, and then fled the country.
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May 9, 2016 18:48
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