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Radio! posted:Apparently the writers put Bucky back in cryo to "punish him", which is just...ugh. He's not guilty though. Like, the guy was so loving scrambled he couldn't recognize his best friend or his own name. That's crazy. The writers don't understand how "guilt" works.
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May 9, 2016 21:09
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Radio! posted:Apparently the writers put Bucky back in cryo to "punish him", which is just...ugh. What the gently caress
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May 9, 2016 21:09
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It's almost like being tortured and brainwashed for 70 years while having to remember every horrible thing you did would be punishment enough.
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May 9, 2016 21:15
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So brave of Marvel. Finally a dramatic movie that ends with punishing the mentally unstable.
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May 9, 2016 21:15
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MacheteZombie posted:So brave of Marvel. Finally a dramatic movie that ends with punishing the mentally unstable. Well to be fair it doesn't feel like punishment. It just feels like they are writing him out in a lazy way.
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May 9, 2016 21:24
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Speaking as a mentally ill person, I don't know how I feel about that.
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May 9, 2016 21:27
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Bucky made the choice to be put on ice, Steve felt he was overdoing it. Isn't that a big difference from forced incarceration?TFRazorsaw posted:Speaking as a mentally ill person, I don't know how I feel about that. It's not uncommon for me to feel like I am a burden to people and to limit or stop doing certain things in order to consider the feelings of other people. To me, Bucky's decision make sense even if it's not a healthy or normal way for him to look at his situation. To me everything is a constant conflict and is uncertain, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Bucky to have a moment of clarity and realize that he is absolved of any and all wrong doing. That would be just as offensive to those with mental illness. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 21:37 on May 9, 2016 |
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May 9, 2016 21:30
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Yeah but Bucky's not actually making a decision because he's not a real person, he's a character. If punishment is the reason the writers put him back into cryo, that's the reason, regardless of how it could be rationalized from Bucky's perspective.
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May 9, 2016 21:40
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On the one hand, I see what other people are saying. On the other hand, the "that's not me" defense is actually super offensive to most people who mental disorders when people use it to say it's not our fault when it leads to poor behavior. On the other, other hand, I can't really judge what victims of brainwashing experience. So again. I don't know how to feel about it, or about the writers and the decisions they made.
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May 9, 2016 21:42
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Radio! posted:Yeah but Bucky's not actually making a decision because he's not a real person, he's a character. If punishment is the reason the writers put him back into cryo, that's the reason, regardless of how it could be rationalized from Bucky's perspective. This is why the Phantom Zone and things like it are and always have been bullshit. It's putting the genie back in the bottle.
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May 9, 2016 21:42
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OK so now I'm going to write a bunch about Civil War. Haha, Batman vs. Superman was better by far. OK, now that that is out of the way... I saw it in IMAX with my 11 year-old nephew and the same group I saw BvS with. All of these people are pretty hardcore Marvel fans and they were stoked. Admittedly, so was I, as the Captain America movies have been the best and most interesting films in the MCU. I'll remember that grenade scene from First Avenger basically forever, and the freeway fight from Winter Soldier is IMO the best action Marvel has put to film. So I was expecting this to be pretty good. I saw it at 9:30 AM (!) on Sunday and the theater was ~80% full. This is a good sign for Marvel for sure. My one-line review: Eh, it was okay. I genuinely enjoyed a lot of the parts of the movie, but the overall movie itself I just found sort of... uninteresting? Jumbled, kind of? It seemed like a re-hash of one of the problems with BvS, which was two movies trying to fit into one. One movie was a dark, emotional thriller where Cap was trying to protect and clear his friend of bogus charges, and that movie was pretty good. The other movie was an Avengers-esque theme park ride that, much like a theme park ride, is hugely entertaining while you're on it and ceases to matter to anyone in any way the second the ride stops. This is the second superhero movie this year that's supposed to be about an ideological conflict that seems to try and just hurry up all that "why" and get to the punching. At least in BvS it makes a little sense because the Bat is crazy and murderous and not really interested in talking with the spaceman but poo poo, these guys in the Avengers are supposed to be buds! They hang out and get drunk and haze each other with Thor's hammer! It just seemed they went to the mattresses a little too quick for combat buds who've saved each others' lives a hundred times each. All the characters are great. Has any Marvel movie won any awards for casting? Because they've knocked it out of the park with every actor in every role in every movie they've made for almost a decade now. Marvel's choice to do all of these individual movies setting these guys up has, in retrospect, proven to be the right choice. We've all been with Cap and Iron Man and the others through a lot of poo poo, and we've watched them win and lose and so they really matter to us. It was hard to watch Iron Man and Cap trying to murder each other in the same way it was hard to watch Batman getting ready to kill Superman, but with BvS it was because holy loving poo poo this is Batman and Superman! In Civil War it's just different, somehow. It's like the difference between watching strangers trying to kill each other and seeing your good friends trying to kill each other. With one you're videoing it on your phone hoping for some Best of Youtube-type poo poo and with the other you're  stop stop please stop you guys are friends oh God he's hitting him with the shield stop already Spider-man is loving fantastic, Tom Holland nailed it, this is the best Peter Parker and the best Spider-man that's ever been put to film. I can't wait to see more. That said, the way Spider-man came into this movie was laughably bad. "Hey kid who's never been mentioned before ever even once, here's some Youtube vids, this is you right, welcome to the Avengers, Spider-man." My favorite line in the movie was Spidey saying to Cap, "You know, that shield doesn't really seem to obey the laws of physics at all." More like that, please. Black Panther was a bad-rear end and I'll be there opening night, Marvel. DON'T YOU gently caress THIS UP MARVEL. DON'T YOU DARE. I'll cut you. I thought he also had by far the best character moment in the movie. "I will no longer let it consume me." You tell 'em, T'Challa. There are some genuinely funny parts where the whole audience was laughing and chuckling and some genuinely "holy gently caress that's AWESOME" parts. Several people audibly marked out when Ant-man went gigasized and Captain America pulling the helicopter back to the pad was hot poo poo for sure (and man Chris Evans is jacked). The theater was dead silent during the three-way fight at the end and concerned tension was in the air. Honorable mention to Captain America kicking a loving truck at the beginning hard enough to knock someone out. That three-way fight at the end was a thing of beauty. "He didn't do it! It's not his fault!" "I don't care. He killed my mom." THAT is the kind of "oh poo poo" moment that "YOU'RE LETTING THEM KILL... MARTHA!" was going for and whiffed on IMO. In BvS I went, wait, what the gently caress, who calls their mom by her first name? In Civil War I went oh... poo poo, well I guess that is a pretty good reason to kill him after all. Speaking of Tony Stark at the end, I just wanted to give him a hug. The road to Hell, Tony, the road to Hell. Check out its pavement. I did find it pretty strange that all through the movie Tony is pretty obviously suffering tremendously but none of his Avenger friends gives a gently caress about his emotional state or well-being at all, but I guess caring about your friends gets in the way of fighting them. I'm not a Marvel vs. DC partisan, but it's inevitable that these two movies are going to get compared to each other, especially since I understand from reading on the Internet that BvS was literally the worst movie ever, induced miscarriages in pregnant women who saw it, and lost so much money that Hollywood is shutting down permanently. Well, I was being facetious at the beginning when I said BvS was "better," but man I like BvS a lot more than this movie. I've thought about BvS pretty much every day since I saw it in some way, and not just the action setpieces. I don't think I'll be doing that with Civil War. That said I was thoroughly entertained, it was worth every penny of my $10, and I'll probably go watch it again this weekend at the $5 showing after having 6-8 beers. You should go see it. poo poo, Captain America's biceps are probably worth the price of admission. Oh, and please, if you haven't seen it yet, don't bother with sitting through all the credits to see the Spider-man scene at the end, that poo poo was movie-making malpractice. I know it's STDH.txt but when "Spider-man will return" popped up on screen, my friend and I turned to each other laughing and both said "NO poo poo!" at the same time and the people around us all cracked up. A character whose movies regularly make hundreds of millions of dollars even if they are lukewarm ham like ASM 2 is going to get more movies? Holy poo poo alert the media, this is big news! Later over margaritas and cheese dip we discussed an alternate history where at the end it instead said, "Spider-man will not return... in fact we're even cancelling all the comic books. We hope you enjoyed seeing him this one last time because after the events of this movie he choked to death on an unchewed hot dog. RIP." Bonus "NO poo poo SHERLOCK" nephew story: So my nephew and I have played a lot of Marvel Heroes 2016 together and one of our hero duos is Black Panther (me) and Thor (him) as well as the Hulk (me) and Black Panther (him). So my nephew knows the following things about Black Panther: 1.He's black. 2.His name is T'challa. 3.He is the king of Wakanda. 4.He has an African accent. After the scene where a tall, muscular black man with an African accent introduces himself to Black Widow and basically says, "I am T'challa, prince of Wakanda, who will become king of Wakanda if my father tragically dies here in just a minute, that's T'challa, of Wakanda, black guy with African accent, okay see you later!" my nephew tugged at my sleeve and said, "Hey, JS... I think that guy might be Black Panther!"
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May 9, 2016 21:44
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Radio! posted:Yeah but Bucky's not actually making a decision because he's not a real person, he's a character. If punishment is the reason the writers put him back into cryo, that's the reason, regardless of how it could be rationalized from Bucky's perspective. Ooh right, yeah that detail is extremely hard to overlook and makes the whole thing really wrong, I agree. I missed that part the first time.
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May 9, 2016 21:44
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I said come in! posted:Bucky made the choice to be put on ice, Steve felt he was overdoing it. Isn't that a big difference from forced incarceration? You usually don't let mentally ill people prescribe themselves.
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May 9, 2016 21:45
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There was never a problem anyone had with Bucky being locked up and, Bucky's mental illness isn't something that can be easily fixed. What they are doing is putting the super hero version of a straight jacket on him until he can be fixed. And not harm himself or others.
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May 9, 2016 21:50
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JonathonSpectre posted:After the scene where a tall, muscular black man with an African accent introduces himself to Black Widow and basically says, "I am T'challa, prince of Wakanda, who will become king of Wakanda if my father tragically dies here in just a minute, that's T'challa, of Wakanda, black guy with African accent, okay see you later!" my nephew tugged at my sleeve and said, "Hey, JS... I think that guy might be Black Panther!" Well, to be fair he says himself that he's Black Panther about five minutes later. I don't think his identity was supposed to be a secret to the audience. 
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May 9, 2016 21:52
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MacheteZombie posted:You usually don't let mentally ill people prescribe themselves. I don't think I would appreciate a scene where Steve Rogers starts playing doctor on Bucky. He is stuck in a situation where he needs to make his own choices at that moment. Often times in reality the mentally ill are stuck with just themselves and that means making a lot of questionable choices.
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May 9, 2016 21:54
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Cavelcade posted:My problem with it is twofold: Well, other than a very, very angry Captain America, his half of the Avengers, and the might of Wakanda gunning for whoever steals the Buckycicle. Also probably Tony's half of the Avengers. quote:2) We literally have psychologists who specialise in deprogramming people in existence right now. Why not at least try, why just immediately capitulate? Bucky is Sci-Fi programed though. You can't actually say a string of phrases to a person and force them to do things against their will. It's a literary/cinematic exaggeration held over from the cold war and all the sleeper agent stories. You could probably brainwash Bucky into believing in Hydra and working for them, but he wouldn't be Sgt. James "Bucky" Barnes, BFF of Steve Rogers and super cool native of Brooklyn, at the same time just watching in horror.
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May 9, 2016 21:54
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I said come in! posted:I don't think I would appreciate a scene where Steve Rogers starts playing doctor on Bucky. He is stuck in a situation where he needs to make his own choices at that moment. Often times in reality the mentally ill are stuck with just themselves and that means making a lot of questionable choices. It's a good thing they were in a Super Science Laboratory when they had the conversation with Bucky about what's next for him. The conversation couldn't have been about being in isolation being treated by specialists in brainwashing or anything, nope.
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May 9, 2016 21:56
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Bucky asked to be put on ice because he's a walking timebomb who can potentially turn into a loving nightmare of a killing machine at a drop of a hat. It's not just about guilt. But the guilt is completely reasonable. He murdered 100's of people and remembers every second. Logic has nothing to do with it. And this is a bit late, but Cap directly asked Bucky what Zemo wanted from him. He knew Bucky was responsible.
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May 9, 2016 21:57
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Gyges posted:Bucky is Sci-Fi programed though. You can't actually say a string of phrases to a person and force them to do things against their will. It's a literary/cinematic exaggeration held over from the cold war and all the sleeper agent stories. And they could use Sci-Fi Medicine to treat him like another character in the movie was getting.
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May 9, 2016 21:57
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MacheteZombie posted:It's a good thing they were in a Super Science Laboratory when they had the conversation with Bucky about what's next for him. The conversation couldn't have been about being in isolation being treated by specialists in brainwashing or anything, nope. Right, I thought about that as I was writing that post and figured we have to give some leeway here because it's still a movie and logic is always going to go out the window at points.
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May 9, 2016 21:58
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MacheteZombie posted:You usually don't let mentally ill people prescribe themselves. The fact that the mentally ill don't have any control over their own treatment is actually a serious issue in the community.
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May 9, 2016 21:59
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TFRazorsaw posted:The fact that the mentally ill don't have any control over their own treatment is actually a serious issue in the community. Fair enough, I apologize if that comment was inappropriate.
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May 9, 2016 22:00
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MacheteZombie posted:And they could use Sci-Fi Medicine to treat him like another character in the movie was getting. And which he might very well be getting. In the meantime, Bucky feels it's safest for everyone if he's not up and walking around. He made it pretty clear that it's his personal choice that he's too dangerous and should go under until such time as his programming can be removed.
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May 9, 2016 22:05
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MacheteZombie posted:And they could use Sci-Fi Medicine to treat him like another character in the movie was getting. Oh, I agree. Especially since he's still down a robot arm and is in a very safe place with his buddy Steve looking out for him. Plus a psychiatrist/psychologist to the super human community would be an interesting addition to the Marvel Movie rosters. I was just pointing out that, no, you can't just throw a standard deprogramming expert at him.
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May 9, 2016 22:07
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Cythereal posted:And which he might very well be getting. In the meantime, Bucky feels it's safest for everyone if he's not up and walking around. He made it pretty clear that it's his personal choice that he's too dangerous and should go under until such time as his programming can be removed. This is a point I struggle a lot with when it comes to writing characters. How do you distinguish between the characters actions and what the writer decides to do? To me it seems like there is an actual difference because the viewer doesn't start to point at the writer until there is something problematic about the writing, until that point the characters are perfect examples of writing. Black Widow calling herself a monster for not being able to carry children wasn't a character trait, it was the writer being sexist. Bucky choosing to go into cryo sleep wasn't a character choice, it was the writer being problematic. That seems like a flimsy argument to use against any scene we choice to not like.
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May 9, 2016 22:10
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Mental disorders aren't super rare, the usual stats are that 25% of the adult population in the US will experience a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year, with almost half of those meeting the criteria for two or more disorders. If the characters in these movies were actual people rather than wacky cliched two dimensional characters I'm pretty sure that almost all the supervillains that got killed/sucked into cosmic cubes/imprisoned in the MCU movies would probably have been found to have some sort of psychiatric disorder if they'd ever undergone a professional examination and diagnosis, and most likely a bunch of the heroes as well. Stark actually tried to reach out to Banner and talk about his problems which is the point where Banner should have referred him to an actual psychiatrist rather than pretending to listen and falling asleep. The same goes for the DC movies - Batman sure as hell was having all sorts of trouble coping with his PTSD in BvS and goddamn Alfred was enabling the gently caress out of him, helping him build anti-Superman armored suits and poo poo like that. But of course if those characters tried to treat their issues via diagnosis and counselling and perhaps medication then that would have been a lot more boring that sweaty shaky cam fights in concrete bunkers.
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May 9, 2016 22:10
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Gyges posted:You can't actually say a string of phrases to a person and force them to do things against their will. Buddy, I get people to respond to my silly posts all the time. It's really not that hard. 
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May 9, 2016 22:10
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Gyges posted:Oh, I agree. Especially since he's still down a robot arm and is in a very safe place with his buddy Steve looking out for him. Plus a psychiatrist/psychologist to the super human community would be an interesting addition to the Marvel Movie rosters. I was just pointing out that, no, you can't just throw a standard deprogramming expert at him. Oh gotcha! Cythereal posted:And which he might very well be getting. In the meantime, Bucky feels it's safest for everyone if he's not up and walking around. He made it pretty clear that it's his personal choice that he's too dangerous and should go under until such time as his programming can be removed. But when the writers come out and say they wrote it that way to punish the Bucky character for bad deeds it murkies the water on what their intended message is with that scene. TFR's post does cause me to pause on the subject though because this: TFRazorsaw posted:The fact that the mentally ill don't have any control over their own treatment is actually a serious issue in the community. could be what they are trying to get across with the specific action, but the movie is so non-committal with it's own themes, it's hard for me to read some statement about advancing the prescriptive rights of the mentally impaired into the scene especially when combined with the "punishment" comment.
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May 9, 2016 22:11
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Gyges posted:Plus a psychiatrist/psychologist to the super human community would be an interesting addition to the Marvel Movie rosters. Or it could be loving horrible in the wrong hands. Rob Liefeld actually had a wacky strip called Shrink! about a ex-superhero turned psychiatrist to the superhero world which was about as awful as you'd expect. It's all puns and dick jokes. Back in 2002 it was announced that Columbia had optioned the movie rights to the strip and attached Jennifer Lopez to star in it which obviously never went anywhere.
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May 9, 2016 22:16
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I'm gonna be honest. This conversation happening after I got shouted down and patronized over my issues with BvS's portrayal of Lex Luthor isn't just frustrating, it's kind of hurtful. I don't want to be egocentric, but it feels like there's something askew here.
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May 9, 2016 22:21
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Or it could be loving horrible in the wrong hands. Rob Liefeld actually had a wacky strip called Shrink! about a ex-superhero turned psychiatrist to the superhero world which was about as awful as you'd expect. It's all puns and dick jokes. Back in 2002 it was announced that Columbia had optioned the movie rights to the strip and attached Jennifer Lopez to star in it which obviously never went anywhere. They have been very good about keeping Liefeldien demons from their work so far. Also, Jesus Christ, those loving faces. Liefeld gets a lot of poo poo for his musculature and lack of feet, but has he ever even seen another human being's face? The picture of the lady and the tiny man with the giant ballsack is terrifying for so, so many reasons.
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May 9, 2016 22:23
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Or it could be loving horrible in the wrong hands. Rob Liefeld actually had a wacky strip called Shrink! about a ex-superhero turned psychiatrist to the superhero world which was about as awful as you'd expect. It's all puns and dick jokes. Back in 2002 it was announced that Columbia had optioned the movie rights to the strip and attached Jennifer Lopez to star in it which obviously never went anywhere. People in charge looked at this artwork and thought it was good enough to publish... 
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May 9, 2016 22:26
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JonathonSpectre posted:OK so now I'm going to write a bunch about Civil War. While I disagree that BvS was the better of the two films, I just wanted to say that your long-form review was hilarious and a joy to read.
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May 9, 2016 22:30
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MacheteZombie posted:
Yeah, this. It sounds like the writers went "we have to put him back into cryo as punishment" and then wrote to fit that outcome, not what might necessarily make the most sense given the character's background/experiences. So the scene ends up confused because it's trying to act like it's Bucky's choice when really the "choice" was written after the result was decided on, if that makes sense? TFRazorsaw posted:I'm gonna be honest. This conversation happening after I got shouted down and patronized over my issues with BvS's portrayal of Lex Luthor isn't just frustrating, it's kind of hurtful. I haven't seen BvS or read the thread, but sorry if anything I said made you feel that way.
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May 9, 2016 22:31
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Gyges posted:Bucky is Sci-Fi programed though. You can't actually say a string of phrases to a person and force them to do things against their will. I said come in! posted:I don't think I would appreciate a scene where Steve Rogers starts playing doctor on Bucky. JonathonSpectre posted:It just seemed they went to the mattresses a little too quick
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May 9, 2016 22:35
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TFRazorsaw posted:I'm gonna be honest. This conversation happening after I got shouted down and patronized over my issues with BvS's portrayal of Lex Luthor isn't just frustrating, it's kind of hurtful. The vibe I get from the Beevis thread is that supporters of that film have to deal with so many trolls and low-content posters proclaiming the film to be utter dogshit that some of them immediately go into "this is why op is dumb" mode when a new criticism is levied. Not to imply everyone is that way in the thread, my posts were more on the anti side and I still feel like I got a lot of good discussion out of it.
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May 9, 2016 22:40
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I'm fine with Bucky choosing to punish himself because it makes total sense that the guy dealing with decades of guilt over the course of one prior movie would be fine with isolating and restraining himself until he is certain that he will never be 'reprogrammed'. It's essentially a successful variant of the scene where the Wolfman attempts to bind himself with chains and fails. Other worthwhile comparisons are to Captain at the end of First Avenger, and Penance from the comic version of Civil War. In First Avenger Steve willingly sacrifices himself to protect others (calling back to the scene where he jumps on the dummy grenade), and through his own arc the Winter Soldier has been influenced by Steve enough to make the same sacrifice (even if the citizens in question are only potentially endangered). Within the comics Penance (who played Winter Soldier's role in sparking the conflict) also punishes himself, by encasing himself in a costume with spikes on the inside (because the Civil War comics were terrible and Penance was still a terrible character before he became Penance). It's also additionally effective on Steve because he's essentially being disagreed with; that WS (a superhero) is indeed a threat, and must be contained and regulated until he is no longer a threat.
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May 9, 2016 22:48
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My verdict: Zemo's plan (and really the entire plot) seemed way overwrought The only visually distinctive thing I remember were the place name overlays, that was a cool font Scarlet Witch's 'screwup' was kind of a cop out so, Bucky isn't getting his own movie any time soon?
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May 9, 2016 22:50
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Gyges posted:Oh, I agree. Especially since he's still down a robot arm and is in a very safe place with his buddy Steve looking out for him. Plus a psychiatrist/psychologist to the super human community would be an interesting addition to the Marvel Movie rosters. I was just pointing out that, no, you can't just throw a standard deprogramming expert at him. That's fine. But as you've agreed, if you can have Movie-programming, there's no reason you can't have Movie-deprogramming. I think I should make clear that I don't think Bucky, as a character, is necessary in the franchise anymore. I don't want him or any super-psychologist showing up again, unless he's meeting Cap for coffee and talking about how he's having trouble coming to terms with all the innocent people he killed and it's loving him up. Radio! posted:Apparently the writers put Bucky back in cryo to "punish him", which is just...ugh. Ugh. That just puts a bad taste in my mouth. JonathonSpectre posted:OK so now I'm going to write a bunch about Civil War. 
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May 9, 2016 22:53
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