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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It was touch football to the point where they established an "end zone". Also, the "end zone" is an airplane that can be quickly and easily destroyed by a single moment's attention from Iron Man, War Machine, or Vision, who golly gee just don't remember that they have powerful projectile weapons! Vision literally uses his laser to cut down an entire gigantic control tower to block the entrance to the hangar that the airplane is clearly visible in instead of just shooting the plane. Who wrote THAT poo poo?
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May 10, 2016 05:16
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I said come in! posted:I am hoping Bucky becomes the next Captain America to be honest. The thing is that that was already the obvious conclusion to this film. The Steve Rogers character is done - he's reached the limit of his characterization, and has two followers ready to go. It's so blatant that everyone is has been counting the days until the inevitable noble sacrifice. Tony Stark also has no reason to exist anymore. When they teased like "in this episode, one Avenger will die!" for the Ultron movie, I'd predicted Stark would bite it - just because that's the only interesting thing you can do with the character at this point. Instead, they resurrected the transparently-villainous character from the Hulk 2 ending. You can all but see the script guy leafing through the binder of discarded plotlines.
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May 10, 2016 05:20
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I don't feel like we've seen the limits of any of the characters in the MCU so far. I suppose that's the benefit of having decades of history to draw on, there's lots of stories that could be told and situations they could be put into. We're presumably going to see Stark as a proper mentor in Homecoming, which we haven't seen him do for more than like a minute at a time while still keeping his ego at the forefront. We saw Cap as a vigilante/hunted man in Winter Soldier, but that was for like a week and done by the bad guys, how does he react when the legit secretary of state and U.S. government is out to get him and his friends? It also gets me more interested in Ant Man and the Wasp, assuming Lang is properly on the lamb when that movie begins. I do think that either Cap or Iron Man dying during Infinity War is sensible to raise the stakes and draw an emotional reaction from the rest of the cast, though when both Evans and RDJ just keep absolutely bringing it I don't want to see it end. Of course, art in all forms is full of characters and performances you love and don't want to end, and then seeing them end in tragic ways. Game of Thrones, for instance, is built on that happening again and again.
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May 10, 2016 05:38
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JonathonSpectre posted:Also, the "end zone" is an airplane that can be quickly and easily destroyed by a single moment's attention from Iron Man, War Machine, or Vision, who golly gee just don't remember that they have powerful projectile weapons! To be fair most people wouldn't instinctively try to destroy their own airplane.
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May 10, 2016 05:44
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MisterBibs posted:I can't understand why people are so upset about the Bucky/Punishment thing. If we take it on faith that the setting doesn't have anything to take out his Hydra Stuff immediately, he either has to be frozen until such time as he can be. Because Bucky is a victim, and there's an easy comparison to someone who is mentally ill. Punishing an innocent, mentally ill person is gross, wrong, and sends a lot of bad signals. But that said, I don't think that intent carried over to the film, which I'm glad of. In the film, it's treated more as Bucky choosing his own treatment until he can be made well again. And the film hints that while he's being put under, they will also be working on a way to get all the Hydra programming out of his head. So I don't see it as a punishment in the film. It's weird to see the writers say that, since they're very good to Bucky throughout the film, and make sure that the audience sympathizes with him. Including the lines saying that he doesn't know if he's worth it, and that he remembers everything, really make you like him and want him to stick around and get better.
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May 10, 2016 05:45
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NowonSA posted:I don't feel like we've seen the limits of any of the characters in the MCU so far. I suppose that's the benefit of having decades of history to draw on, there's lots of stories that could be told and situations they could be put into. They've reached their limits in terms of characters with a sense of continuity about them (which is what the MCU is ostensibly about). You can only tell the story of "Tony Stark fights an evil mirror of himself" or "Aliens blow up New York" or whatever so many times before it gets silly. Characters in long running comic books only really work if you ignore most of their previous endeavors, which is how Crying_911_villains.jpg exists.
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May 10, 2016 05:46
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Cythereal posted:One of the Marvel executives said each Infinity War movie would focus on a distinctly different cast of heroes. Nope: quote:But according to the filmmakers behind the upcoming blockbusters, keeping the roster officially separated between films won’t be part of the equation. http://screenrant.com/infinity-war-avengers-teams/
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May 10, 2016 05:53
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Codependent Poster posted:Because Bucky is a victim, and there's an easy comparison to someone who is mentally ill. Punishing an innocent, mentally ill person is gross, wrong, and sends a lot of bad signals.... It's weird to see the writers say that, since they're very good to Bucky throughout the film, and make sure that the audience sympathizes with him. Including the lines saying that he doesn't know if he's worth it, and that he remembers everything, really make you like him and want him to stick around and get better. See, that's where we differ. Even if the dude isn't guilty of the last few things, the dude is the first to admit that he's done a ton of terrible poo poo over the course of however-many years, and a "well, he was brainwashed so it doesn't matter" through line reads as equally gross and dismissive. Cap is inherently dismissive of every victim of Bucky; he cares more about his feelings over anyone else's. I'm cool with that stuff in Blizzard games, but I can't readily accept it in this universe. I get it, it's a comic book universe, so I should, but I have more sympathy for Mama and Papa Stark than Bucky, to say nothing of the hundreds/thousands of his other victims. Even if he's purged of Hydra Stuff, he's still the dude who murdered Tony's parents. That deserves to be answered for.
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May 10, 2016 06:02
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Saw it tonight, really good movie. The final fight between Cap/Bucky and Ironman was really brutal. I'm really surprised Bucky and/or Warmachine didn't die though(which means they'll probably be killed by Thanos in Infinity War Part 1). Also I find it really funny that Crossbones dies 30 minutes into the movie but was still put into several videogames already.
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May 10, 2016 06:06
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Hawkeye was brainwashed in Avengers and killed/got people killed. Nobody is trying to punish him. It should be the same with Bucky.
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May 10, 2016 06:18
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Codependent Poster posted:Hawkeye was brainwashed in Avengers and killed/got people killed. Nobody is trying to punish him. It should be the same with Bucky. I guess it's easier to accept magic brainwashing vs science brainwashing.
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May 10, 2016 06:20
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The more I think about it, the more that Spider-Man being swayed against Captain America makes sense. Not just because...y'know...Tony totes manipulated him, but also because he's been hearing the same kind of news that everyone else has been hearing, and watching the same footage get played over and over, wherein Captain America's irresponsibility got a bunch of people killed. And not just that, but he's part of the exact same MCU that's been witnessing all the previous events of the General Ross highlight reel. Hell, he was in New York during the Chitauri invasion. That perspective of "You're wrong, but you think you're right" makes a bit more sense if we see Peter as, y'know, just another citizen in the same world that called for the Accords in the first place. He just hasn't exactly put it together that he'd probably do the same thing in Steve's shoes. Also...the more I think about it, the more I appreciate Hawkeye's motivation in this film. It doesn't gloss over his Avengers or AoU characterization, but just takes them to an interesting place. The whole quip he makes about not missing any golf shots, ever, was actually pretty telling; if you're a guy who's preternaturally-skilled at one superhuman, extraordinary, intense skillset, of course you're gonna feel bored and unfulfilled if you never get to exercise that skill in challenging ways. Of course Clint's going stir-crazy living a slow-paced life. It's really not so different from Tony needing to build things all the time. "Hawkeye" not only needs to have his skills constantly challenged, but he'll actually go to dangerous, self-destructive lengths in order to feel excited and fulfilled. This kinda retroactively explains why he was so keen to join the Avengers and run with gods-slash-monsters in the first place. There's really a ton going on in this film, character-wise. Codependent Poster posted:Hawkeye was brainwashed in Avengers and killed/got people killed. Nobody is trying to punish him. It should be the same with Bucky. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 06:26 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 06:22
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I was really expecting Tony's anti-trauma glasses to reappear at the end to cure Bucky of the programming, though I suppose that'd be kind of a wet fart ending.
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May 10, 2016 06:23
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BrianWilly posted:There's really a ton going on in this film, character-wise. They could drop the secret word thing within the MCU and no one from the audience would blink or care. There's even a built in explanation, HYDRA is completely destroyed and the only book with that info was destroyed after Cap and Bucky beat Tony. Instead it's to the cryo with him! Also, I just thought about this, every time he completed a mission he'd be put into cryo until the next one, seems like a reinforcement of that concept since they will totally wheel him out when the MCU needs him again.
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May 10, 2016 06:28
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^^^ Speaking of that, did they ever explain how Zemo found out about the 1991 mission in the first place? Was he just looking through all Hydra's stuff to find some dirt on the Avengers? So Pepper was strangely absent this movie. Were they trying to avoid bloating the budget even more or was it a contract issue?
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May 10, 2016 06:28
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RatHat posted:So Pepper was strangely absent this movie. Were they trying to avoid bloating the budget even more or was it a contract issue? Tony is explicitly asked about this and says they are on a "break" because he couldn't stop being building suits and being Iron Man. e: Zemo found out about it from Winter Soldier when Widow released the documents on SHIELD publicly. It took him until the movie to decrypt the data and find something useful. MacheteZombie fucked around with this message at 06:32 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 06:29
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While it's true Bucky was under mind control for all those murders, rather than give himself in peacefully and explain the situation he goes on the run and fights his way through a bunch of cops wrecking more stuff in the process.
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May 10, 2016 06:32
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Avalerion posted:While it's true Bucky was under mind control for all those murders, rather than give himself in peacefully and explain the situation he goes on the run and fights his way through a bunch of cops wrecking more stuff in the process. Except they weren't there to arrest him, Cap says they're on their way to kill him.
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May 10, 2016 06:34
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MacheteZombie posted:They could drop the secret word thing within the MCU and no one from the audience would blink or care. There's even a built in explanation, HYDRA is completely destroyed and the only book with that info was destroyed after Cap and Bucky beat Tony. Too many things could go wrong with Bucky walking about. Considering that a big idea of the film is "Hey maybe we shouldn't be so blase about things going wrong," I'm surprised there's any debate about this at all. And it's not like they're just putting him in a time capsule and forgetting about him; the Wakandans are actively trying to cure him. e: Actually, how do we even know the book was destroyed? Did we see it happen? For all we know Zemo made twenty copies at Fedex and sent them to the Daily Bugle. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 06:40 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 06:35
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Avalerion posted:While it's true Bucky was under mind control for all those murders, rather than give himself in peacefully and explain the situation he goes on the run and fights his way through a bunch of cops wrecking more stuff in the process. The cops had explicit orders to shoot to kill. I guess he could have turned himself in before it came to that but we all know what happened when he was caught..
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May 10, 2016 06:37
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You could look at it as Bucky punishing himself. If there's one person besides Tony who can be forgiven for blaming him irrationally for what he's done, it's himself.
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May 10, 2016 06:45
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Renoistic posted:The cops had explicit orders to shoot to kill. I guess he could have turned himself in before it came to that but we all know what happened when he was caught.. Dunno how this works but I assumed shoot to kill means "if they put up resistance do everything to take them down" not literally "go and put a bullet in his head no matter what", this is kind of reinforced by the fact that they do just arrest him in the end anyway. Also yea they totally should have taken his murder arm off as soon as he was under lock though.
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May 10, 2016 06:57
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Know something that bugged me in Civil War? The giant font in the middle of the screen whenever they changed location. Just putting it on a corner of the screen would've worked guys.
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May 10, 2016 08:13
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Avalerion posted:While it's true Bucky was under mind control for all those murders, rather than give himself in peacefully and explain the situation he goes on the run and fights his way through a bunch of cops wrecking more stuff in the process.
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May 10, 2016 08:35
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There's some thematic resonance there, where Bucky is willing to do what Tony isn't: stop and work on his own internal issues for the sake of their consequences for others, even if they aren't his own fault. Punishment is a stupid way to see it, but the point is that you're responsible for the consequences of your actions even if you aren't responsible for their source. Bucky and Tony are both dealing with trauma that is in no way their fault, but Tony constantly tries to fix the world instead of admitting that he, personally, is the problem. This looks like personal responsibility bullshit, but a) Tony represents privilege and capitalism, and b) the responsibility that is being argued for isn't actually about being punished, it's about the self-awareness, healing, and growth necessary for ethical leadership. Also, I may be giving the film more credit than it merits 
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May 10, 2016 09:59
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Vision has become a problem character for me with this film. That iconic airport scene where it's 6 on 6 and they're all running at each other? Vision flies straight into battle, then disappears and literally isn't in a single shot of the fight until he shows back up to float through Ant Man at the tail end. That's the problem with him being powered by an Infinity Stone and having limitless power: He's basically a god now. If he doesn't typically engage people in fights because he doesn't want to hurt anyone, fine, but even if that's the case he either shouldn't be there at all or he should be the automatically I Win button. I don't really see an in-between with a character like that. They made a point that Wanda could disable him, but then that didn't come into play at all in the airport fight at all and instead they cut him from it. It took me out of the scene a bit, which is unfortunate because it's otherwise a great action sequence.
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May 10, 2016 10:16
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Boogaleeboo posted:They aren't America. America doesn't matter anymore. You *never* mattered, but now even the institutions built in your name don't matter. Each one of the Avengers is, geopolitically, a super-power. They have total reach and authority to do whatever they want. Human civilization is over. The myth that you matter is over. The world belongs to them now. If Thor decided to wipe out the Earth, the end. Tony nearly did wipe out the Earth, and he walked away from it. The entire point of this movie is that Tony built a world threatening robot that killed a man's family and then the Avengers just went home. And when the world proposed the Accords, nobody in the Avengers seriously followed them. Tony hosed off to deal with Cap and Bucky on his own, and when he was told about the break out in progress he just put Ross on hold. They have no oversight, because they choose not to accept oversight and nobody can force them to have it. Protip: <- Not American. <- Still don't matter, in the same way that no-one including the Avengers matter (or, do matter, in the same way that everyone including the Avengers matter). They do think the political discussion matters. Tony does because he wants to gain more power, and subverting regulations is kind of the capitalist thing to do. Cap does, and believes in the ideal of the conversation and is ready to retire and go have fun until he realises Wanda is under house arrest. He clearly has no problem with the principle of the discussion. Hodgepodge posted:There's some thematic resonance there, where Bucky is willing to do what Tony isn't: stop and work on his own internal issues for the sake of their consequences for others, even if they aren't his own fault. I agree he should be doing that, and staying Wakanda where he's 'armless is a good place to do it. I disagree that freezing himself is working towards taking responsibility or growing, it's actually him stopping entirely. It feels like both a lazy way to write the character out and an ugly way of punishing him. The Hawkeye/Bucky comparison is a good one and I guess I don't distinguish between Science-Magic and just plain ol' Magic. Cavelcade fucked around with this message at 10:30 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 10:28
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I didn't notice Vision's absence at all, and I don't really mind it. I was just about to post about how everyone got to do something super cool at some point in the movie, and most of them got their spot in that airport fight. I can imagine that he wants to stay on the sidelines since he really doesn't want to overdo it and really hurt anybody, I mean for all we know this is his second real fight ever and he may not know how to pull his punches in the heat of a major battle, and not just slapping a chokehold on Hawkeye. Distraction aside, you see that a bit when Tony asks him to take out a tiny thruster on a jetpack and he fires a death beam. I mean, if this were Superman in his second big fight ever, or one of his first few fights, and the Justice League was fighting each other I imagine he'd mostly try to stay on the sidelines too, only using his heat vision as a threat and to indirectly hit stuff. If the Russos just give Thanos a sick squad of bad guys on his side and do a bunch of fights that are very similar to the airport fight I'll be quite content.
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May 10, 2016 10:32
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sticklefifer posted:Vision has become a problem character for me with this film. That iconic airport scene where it's 6 on 6 and they're all running at each other? Vision flies straight into battle, then disappears and literally isn't in a single shot of the fight until he shows back up to float through Ant Man at the tail end. That's the problem with him being powered by an Infinity Stone and having limitless power: He's basically a god now. If he doesn't typically engage people in fights because he doesn't want to hurt anyone, fine, but even if that's the case he either shouldn't be there at all or he should be the automatically I Win button. I don't really see an in-between with a character like that. They made a point that Wanda could disable him, but then that didn't come into play at all in the airport fight at all and instead they cut him from it. It took me out of the scene a bit, which is unfortunate because it's otherwise a great action sequence. At one point he slams into ant-man causing him to fall on an airliner. But yeah, he spends most of the fight apparently just hovering off-screen until he flies through Ant-Man to laser a control tower.
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May 10, 2016 10:55
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sticklefifer posted:Vision has become a problem character for me with this film. That iconic airport scene where it's 6 on 6 and they're all running at each other? Vision flies straight into battle, then disappears and literally isn't in a single shot of the fight until he shows back up to float through Ant Man at the tail end. That's the problem with him being powered by an Infinity Stone and having limitless power: He's basically a god now. If he doesn't typically engage people in fights because he doesn't want to hurt anyone, fine, but even if that's the case he either shouldn't be there at all or he should be the automatically I Win button. I don't really see an in-between with a character like that. They made a point that Wanda could disable him, but then that didn't come into play at all in the airport fight at all and instead they cut him from it. It took me out of the scene a bit, which is unfortunate because it's otherwise a great action sequence. Wanda also disappears for most of the fight. I mean, it could be that they're both too powerful for anyone else to be able to do much. Personally I prefer to think that they were just making out behind a hanger. They do both show back up at pretty much the same time after all. Vison takes out the tower, Wanda holds it up.
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May 10, 2016 12:53
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Codependent Poster posted:Hawkeye was brainwashed in Avengers and killed/got people killed. Nobody is trying to punish him. It should be the same with Bucky. Ditto Natasha, The Hulk, and so on.
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May 10, 2016 13:18
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Wasn't there specifically a moment where Tony says they need to take the kid gloves off and tells the Vision to jump into the fight?HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Ditto Natasha, The Hulk, and so on. Hell, they only briefly hinted at it but Natasha and Bucky worked together when they were both being controlled. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 13:21 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 13:18
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Guys, you are overthinking the Bucky freezing scene. Wakanda is very technically advanced, they have the subliminal technology from Demolition Man, freezing Bucky is part of the treatment. Also, it was nice to give Bucky that tea cozy to put on his metal arm nub. I always looked at it as his decision, Steve felt it was overdoing it, but in the end it was Bucky's decision. My initial read was never that this was punishment; it's a shame the writers felt that way. Wonder if Black Pather's movie will deal with the fallout of holding Bucky while researching treatment.
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May 10, 2016 14:58
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PassTheRemote posted:Guys, you are overthinking the Bucky freezing scene. Wakanda is very technically advanced, they have the subliminal technology from Demolition Man, freezing Bucky is part of the treatment. Also, it was nice to give Bucky that tea cozy to put on his metal arm nub. The Claw lead invasion of Wakanda from years ago could probably be repurposed for that if they wanted. They can probably get some of the voiceover cast from the horrible BET motion comic adaptation to play some parts. I watched that last night and the Obama ending sounded like a middle aged white guy writting hip and urban dialog.
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May 10, 2016 15:03
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RatHat posted:^^^ Speaking of that, did they ever explain how Zemo found out about the 1991 mission in the first place? Was he just looking through all Hydra's stuff to find some dirt on the Avengers? Gwyneth Paltrow has said she took the role because she can go home at night and be with her kids. I don't think she's ever left California when filming Pepper, so she must have a nice contract that doesn't require anything major of her.
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May 10, 2016 15:34
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duz posted:Gwyneth Paltrow has said she took the role because she can go home at night and be with her kids. I don't think she's ever left California when filming Pepper, so she must have a nice contract that doesn't require anything major of her. And also that she's iffy at best about reprising the character. She doesn't want to play Pepper as just a supporting love interest, and has said if she's going to play Pepper again she'll expect Pepper to be in a more action-oriented role.
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May 10, 2016 16:12
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RatHat posted:^^^ Speaking of that, did they ever explain how Zemo found out about the 1991 mission in the first place? Was he just looking through all Hydra's stuff to find some dirt on the Avengers?
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May 10, 2016 16:16
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I just can't believe how good of a job they did in modernizing Falcon, up to even adding in his little falcon sidekick as a drone along with making the wings act like shields to deflect bullets.
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May 10, 2016 16:18
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Kurzon posted:It's not explained As said above, it's explained: Black Widow released a ton of SHIELD/Hydra files to the public.
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May 10, 2016 16:31
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RatHat posted:Know something that bugged me in Civil War? The giant font in the middle of the screen whenever they changed location. Just putting it on a corner of the screen would've worked guys. Man, why do you want to take away the one visually distinct motif in the entire movie
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May 10, 2016 16:34
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