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Defy fate atop a mountain of corpses. 
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May 15, 2016 20:26
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Panzer Skank posted:Hi! Quoting for new page!! Also some notes about the last few episodes: - Recording the nightmare section was fuckin the worst ever lmao. It's one continuous 45 minute segment with no load points, so i had to play and record the entire section 3 separate times to get all the footage - If you're wondering how I knew what the combination was in the Two Whales bathroom, it's the only number on the wall that is reflected in the mirror. I probably should have commented on it, but by that point I wasn't sure what kind of commentary these scenes needed. -I'm going to go into this IN GREAT LENGTH in my bonus video but neither ending is Evil despite appearances at first glance -What th e gently caress why do so many people kis s waRREN
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May 15, 2016 20:31
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We did it! We reached the end. It's time for the 
FINAL VIDEO 
I am working on a bonus video about the endings, expect to see that sometime next week!
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Panzer Skank posted:-What th e gently caress why do so many people kis s waRREN I'm officially like 75% pissed at the makers of this game because they clearly put more effort into the Bury your Gays ending. I mean come on, Max and Chloe don't even put a little effort into digging through the rubble for survivors?
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May 15, 2016 20:39
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Did not expect the surprise cameo at the end. Larry David! :V 
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May 15, 2016 20:41
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Ah, this ending. My least favorite thing about LIS. Option 1: Let Arcadia Bay get destroyed and get no epilogue, invalidating all your choices throughout the game. Option 2: Go back in time and undo everything, killing Chloe and invalidating all your choices throughout the game. In the end, nothing you did mattered except for the last choice, and the game just billed a big chunk of its appeal on the presence of a gay romance option only to force you to murder thousands to bring it home.
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May 15, 2016 20:42
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Panzer Skank posted:-What th e gently caress why do so many people kis s waRREN Statistical evidence that you just can't trust most people to make good choices
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May 15, 2016 20:42
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ZiegeDame posted:I'm officially like 75% pissed at the makers of this game because they clearly put more effort into the Bury your Gays ending. I mean come on, Max and Chloe don't even put a little effort into digging through the rubble for survivors? It's a resources problem. My understanding is they wanted to have that ending be as in depth as the other one but they ran out of time and money.
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May 15, 2016 20:46
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Awesome LP Panzer! I got to make the choice instead of being out voted for once, I'm free to make the worst choices! Though both feel pretty bad.... Panzer Skank posted:-What th e gently caress why do so many people kis s waRREN Yeah I know! I make bad choices but not that bad, come on people! ZiegeDame posted:I'm officially like 75% pissed at the makers of this game because they clearly put more effort into the Bury your Gays ending. I mean come on, Max and Chloe don't even put a little effort into digging through the rubble for survivors? Yeah it feels like they expected more people to choose to let Chloe die. I feel bad about Chloe but I don't even know how many people were lost in the other ending. I mean would David be okay seeing as he was in the bunker? And like ProfessorProf said it feels like nothing we did changed anything. Would have killed them to just show people we've saved via our choices searching the rubble? Kaubocks posted:It's a resources problem. My understanding is they wanted to have that ending be as in depth as the other one but they ran out of time and money. evilspacehopper fucked around with this message at 20:50 on May 15, 2016 |
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May 15, 2016 20:48
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So, that, uh, was an ending. I'll need a bit to compose my thoughs but one thing is for sure - holy poo poo did the game take a plummet in episode 5. It really feels like it took all the shortcuts it could in order to wrap up; I guess it's a necessary evil with episodic games and there was the economy factor but still, that's not just rushed, that's lazy.
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May 15, 2016 21:11
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I'd be interested to see how people's reactions to Episode 5 in general were affected by how they experienced it (episodically, straight after the other episodes, or through the LP), so I made a poll.
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May 15, 2016 21:23
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I wasn't even the one playing and making the decisions and I just cried all my gay tears. Christ.
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May 15, 2016 21:52
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I dont have a lot of energy to spend a whole lot of time ranting about this even though I could, but the end of episode 5 had me so infuriated because it just ties into the incredibly old, tired, and outdated trope of lesbian stories always ending in tragedy because lesbians can never have a happy ending.
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May 15, 2016 21:58
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This was a good game. Thank you for LPing it, Panzer. I think the ending choice is interesting in that it fits with an overall theme in the majority of the choices we make. Anything that is good for Arcadia Bay is bad for Chloe. Anything good for Chloe is bad for Arcadia Bay. I noticed this all the way back in episodes 2 and 3 where it was really obvious, as the choices then which advantaged Chloe and her opinion of us came at the direct expense of at least one other character. So the final choice makes some degree of sense to me, at least. I guess the only issue is there really isn't a "good" ending option for those who managed to hedge their bets on a 50/50 split between the two of them, as we sort of did in this playthrough. That's what we get for being indecisive, ar?
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May 15, 2016 22:02
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Captain Swiss posted:I dont have a lot of energy to spend a whole lot of time ranting about this even though I could, but the end of episode 5 had me so infuriated because it just ties into the incredibly old, tired, and outdated trope of lesbian stories always ending in tragedy because lesbians can never have a happy ending. This is kind of a dumb opinion to have. On the phone so I can't get into detail but both of LiS's endings, while not perfect, still make plenty of sense within the story the game is trying to tell, and that story has little to nothing to do with the fact that it contains an underwhelming romance between two girls.
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May 15, 2016 22:03
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If this isn't documentary proof that gay romance causes natural disasters, I don't know what is.
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May 15, 2016 22:08
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Oxxidation posted:This is kind of a dumb opinion to have. 'It makes sense because story reasons' isnt a valid argument the same way that 'This sexualized fictional woman character is ok because the sexualized fictional woman character is empowered in her choice to wear what she wants' isnt a valid argument.
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May 15, 2016 22:14
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Captain Swiss posted:'It makes sense because story reasons' isnt a valid argument the same way that 'This sexualized fictional woman character is ok because the sexualized fictional woman character is empowered in her choice to wear what she wants' isnt a valid argument. You're going to have to run that by me again because it didn't parse at all.
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May 15, 2016 22:15
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On the one hand it's cute there's a literal butterfly effect, but they do slap it a bit in your face as if yelling "look, we're being clever and subtle." I agree that both endings invalidating all player choices until now kinda sucks, but on the other hand a point throughout the game has been that the choices form the characters (see: Max trying to leave the realities she leaves as nice as possible even though she won't be in them and they might not even exist after she jumps away). With that said, I like that there's no obviously good or bad ending. I like the Chloe ending more because, as they also make explicit, it really seems Chloe is destined to die and gently caress fate.
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May 15, 2016 22:25
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I don't understand why saving Chloe caused a cyclone. And let's face it. We're missing out on an opportunity. For example, if we rewind time and take Chloe to a different city and save her there, would that city get destroyed instead of Arcadia Bay? Would it work on a landlocked city like Topeka? Can we weaponize Chloe? I feel like these are important questions that the game fails to address.
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May 15, 2016 22:27
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Kaubocks posted:It's a resources problem. My understanding is they wanted to have that ending be as in depth as the other one but they ran out of time and money. It doesn't seem like that, to be honest. It looks like they wrote the story with "Sacrifice Chloe" ending in mind - the alternate universe with paraplegic Chloe foreshadows what's going to happen. Max tries to fix the past, unforseen consequences make everything even worse and force her to accept the tragedy to make things right. Everything since Chapter 2 seems to suggest in retrospect that it's not Jefferson that causes the problem, it's just the reality begging for mercy and finally flipping out in rage. The ending isn't that great, but at least seems complete - Jefferson and Nathan get their punishment, the storm never happens, Max seems to get some semblance of closure, the blue butterfly visits Chloe's funeral approvingly. I disagree strongly with the message, I feel the old "don't resist the destiny" trope is overused - but this seems to be the proper ending of the game for me, as it closes the story. What you get if you decide Chloe is pretty bad, because it doesn't really tell anything. Was the entire town wiped out or were there any survivors? Do Max and Chloe feel guilty or feel it was worth it? Is the latter even safe or is her continuing existence going to lead to other, worse tragedies? I don't know after watching the ending and I don't feel the writers know that either. Even if this is a guilt trip, it's incredibly weak - a bunch of destroyed houses and an unrecognizable body are unlikely to make the player care. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 22:41 on May 15, 2016 |
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May 15, 2016 22:33
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The Save Arcadia Bay ending is the bad ending because it tricked me into thinking Foals was a good band.
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May 15, 2016 22:45
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I thought it was interesting that all of the moments picked between max and chloe were their more positive moments. There were plenty of times where Chloe treated max like poo poo throughout the game.
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May 15, 2016 22:48
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Captain Swiss posted:I dont have a lot of energy to spend a whole lot of time ranting about this even though I could, but the end of episode 5 had me so infuriated because it just ties into the incredibly old, tired, and outdated trope of lesbian stories always ending in tragedy because lesbians can never have a happy ending. I can definitely have a lot of sympathy for that viewpoint - it's part of the reason that I enjoyed Love is Strange so much. I also understand that as a straight white cis-male my opinion of LGBT matters is not hugely important. But I think it's harsh to blame Life is Strange based on the sins of other works, primarily in other media. Saying that lesbian characters in video games can only have happy endings would be just as restrictive as the "Bury Your Gays" trope. What we really need is more games about more diverse subjects so there can be happy endings and sad endings, and everything in between. (I would suggest looking at "Gone Home" for a story with a happier ending). Life is Strange was set up to be a tragedy from the start - or at least from when the weather weirdness was linked to Max's powers. Let's face is, most "serious" time-travel stories do not end well. The potential romance between Max and Chloe was just caught up in that. Would you have preferred it if one of them was male? Say if Max was a boy? I think it was fairly clear that one out of Max or Chloe was going to have to die to prevent the storm, though I will admit that when I was going through the "Max and Chloe memory lane" section I was kinda hoping for a cop-out Deus Ex Machina happy ending. If the game did have a happy ending, then that would have to be the only ending, because having the choices be "Sacrifice Chloe", "Sacrifice Arcadia Bay" and "Happy Ending - everybody lives, yay!" kinda invalidates the other two endings. Maybe it would work if in that ending Jefferson got away, so you'd be setting Max and Chloe's happiness over the possible future victims? I dunno.
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May 15, 2016 23:03
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sixc posted:I don't understand why saving Chloe caused a cyclone. My personal take on it is that every time Max makes a change, she distorts the timeline - stretching and twisting it like an elastic band. Just saving Chloe may not have done too much damage, but it leads to Max discovering her powers, which then inevitably leads to her using them a lot throughout the game, each occasion twisting the timeline a little more, storing more and more energy into it, until it finally snaps and releases all the energy at once, as the storm. Going back and letting Chloe get shot stops Max from discovering her powers, so zero changes get made to the timeline. Of course, when "our" Max's consciousness flashes back to the present, she'll still remember her powers, but hopefully won't use them again.
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May 15, 2016 23:10
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Both endings are good, because either way Max gets out of that awkward drive-in movie date with Warren. 
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May 15, 2016 23:38
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I said earlier that Life is Strange is by-the-numbers magical realism - the whole game is a psychodrama centered around Max Caulfield and her reluctance to advance her life in any meaningful way. She's hesitant to submit her photographs for the contest, she doesn't open up to people at her new school, she procrastinates seeing her childhood friend for a straight month despite moving back into her old hometown and everything. Her powers only kick in when Chloe dies and she sees the real, unavoidable consequences of her foot-dragging. Magical realism tends to have inexplicable, supernatural happenings as externalizations of a character's inner emotions or conflict. In Max's case, her time-travel powers are literally borne out her desire to go back and fix her mistakes. The game afterward pretty much consists of the world at large rolling up its sleeves and teaching her, in increasingly harsh ways, why you can't do that. None of Max's solutions ever work. Her rewinds only put off the inevitable, at best, and as the use of her powers become more intense, the backlash just gets worse to match it (like alt-Chloe and her paraplegia). It's noteworthy that the one unambiguously good act you can pull in this game, saving Kate, comes about when Max's rewind power breaks down completely - all she can do is hold time still long enough to confront Kate with information she's learned in normal, mundane ways. Her power is just an extension of her regret and neurosis, and feeds those regrets as it keeps being used. That culminates in Episode 5, where she drives herself half-crazy trying to rewind her way out of Jefferson's trap from every possible angle, and just ends up right back where she started in the end. The game's not shy about its Catcher in the Rye references (Max calls a deerstalker cap in the principal's office "something a phony would wear," for God's sake). Max's issues aren't too far removed from those of Holden Caulfield, in some ways. Holden also suffered from a serious case of arrested development, in that he spends most of the book refusing to grow up mentally and condemns the world around him for not indulging his bad habits. He lets most of his issues slip in the passage that name-drops the book's title: quote:I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody's around — nobody big, I mean — except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff — I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. Except that the "catcher in the rye" line is based off a misquoted line from a Robert Burns poem, something that his little sister, of all people, calls him out on. Like everywhere else in the book, Holden's little mission statement above is just another example of his warped, self-centered perspective - he doesn't want to grow up or move on, and feels the urge to protect or "catch" little kids because he doesn't want them to do the same. The closest thing he comes to realizing this for himself and choking back his own problems is when he finally allows his sister to go out and ride a carousel without his supervision, and he notes how happy and relieved she looks before telling the reader how he's allowed himself to be institutionalized. Max's dilemma follows the same lines. Every character and event in the game, Chloe included, is just a glorified prop for her own internal drama, and this comes to a head when she has her mental breakdown in Episode 5 where everyone she's met just keeps banging on and on about her impotence and selfishness. Her need to "save" Chloe is also selfish, because it stems from her disgust with herself and her inability to take initiative and accept her mistakes; she thinks that if she'd just gotten a move on and spoken to Chloe earlier, that incident in the bathroom never would have happened. But it did, and it can't be taken back without appropriate consequences, and the world around Arcadia Bay becomes more and more unstable until she receives a cosmic ultimatum in the form of the hurricane - pick the future you want and live with it, and all the consequences that follow. I don't think either of the ending choices are inherently "wrong," though sacrificing Chloe is the one closer to Holden's choice. Chloe accepts that she needs to die to save the town (a far removal from the first episode, where she bitterly wishes the whole place would just disappear), and Max lets her go over the cliff, so to speak, and resolves to get on with her life. I wasn't hugely invested in LiS overall, since I played it really late and wasn't that hooked by any of the characters. But at the same time I think that's why the ending didn't bother me much - since I didn't care a whole lot about the cast, I was cool with them being little more than a rotating series of extras in Max's own little personal world. The romance between her and Chloe was likewise the dullest part of the game for me, so I don't agree with people condemning the ending because it upholds some weird cliche about lesbian relationships or whatever. That's not the story the game was trying to tell. As a side note, I like how most of the bumper songs in all five episodes have something to do with consequences and fleeting time, especially "Mt. Washington" from Episode 2. That metronomic drumbeat and the plaintive, slightly desperate refrain of "I don't have to see you right now" captures Max's procrastination and regret really well. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 01:08 on May 16, 2016 |
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May 15, 2016 23:43
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paragon1 posted:Both endings are good, because either way Max gets out of that awkward drive-in movie date with Warren. FINALLY someone cuts to the heart of the matter.
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May 15, 2016 23:51
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Surprise Pizza posted:But I think it's harsh to blame Life is Strange based on the sins of other works, primarily in other media. Saying that lesbian characters in video games can only have happy endings would be just as restrictive as the "Bury Your Gays" trope. It's not that no media can have a lesbian romance end in tragedy. It's that no media can have the only lesbian romance in it end in tragedy. Just look at how many straight relationships there are in LiS. For every Joyce and William, or Frank and Rachel, there's at least half a dozen straight teen couples hooking up. So it's ok to have a world where some straight relationships end in tragedy, because not ALL of them end in tragedy. Meanwhile, 100% of queer relationships in LiS end in tragedy.
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May 16, 2016 00:24
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Why was Jefferson arrested? After the time-rewind ends, Max wouldn't remember anything that future-Max knew. Unless she wrote "JEFFERSON IS CREEPY SRSLY" on her arm, how would she know to warn anyone about him?
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May 16, 2016 00:43
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thorf posted:Why was Jefferson arrested? Nathan was arrested and probably gave him up. That is why he spazzed so much on Chloe for telling him what to do. He was sick of Jefferson manipulating him.
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May 16, 2016 00:46
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May 16, 2016 01:04
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ZiegeDame posted:It's not that no media can have a lesbian romance end in tragedy. It's that no media can have the only lesbian romance in it end in tragedy. Hmmm. Point. Though, again, the answer to that is "more lesbians". Although, now that I think about relationships in LiS: Joyce & William - He dies Joyce & David - He (potentially) gets kicked out of the house Rachel & Frank - They split up, she goes missing Rachel & Mr. Jefferson? - Erm... Dana & Logan - He knocks her up, they split up Dana & Trevor - They seem pretty happy together Juliet & Zach - He sexts with Victoria, they split up, she flirts with Logan, but they hook back up at the party. Not exactly a romance for the ages here. Though most of them don't end in death, it does seem that the straights aren't doing a whole lot better than the gays on the whole happy ending thing here. I guess maybe Dontnod are guilty of perceiving a lesbian relationship as a "cool" thing to feature in the game, rather than just a normal part of life that could be part of background characters too. Edit - Great post by Oxxidation back there, btw. Bravo!
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May 16, 2016 01:07
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sixc posted:I don't understand why saving Chloe caused a cyclone. Its because the game's themes and its actual narrative are in conflict. Thematically LiS is all about magical realism and how trying to live in the past is destructive to you and the people around you. It's why Max is a photographer (capturing moments in time), the reoccurring snow globe imagery and why nearly everything good Max does could have been just as easily done without her powers. Max can't save Chloe because she failed to act to do so right at the beginning but her powers allow her to become a better person, help Chloe deal with her issues and accept her death and even gives the two of them a final adventure and a sweet romance before they both have to go their separate ways. (see Oxidation's post for more depth on this issue) However if we just look at what actually happened in the narrative itself a far uglier picture emerges. There's no particular reason that Chloe's life or death should cause a massive tornado beyond some vague variant of "gods plan". Nor is there any good reason that Max has powers to begin with. Unlike most time travel is bad stories Max never engages in any conscious act of hubris or transgression to get her powers she just suddenly has them, nor does she use her powers in a particularly selfish or thoughtless way. The major uses of her power never work out but always for rather arbitrary reasons, few if any of which are actually foreseeable. The only reason that she can't get a mega happy ending is because the universe refuses to allow it not because her actions has unexpected consequences. Even worse the ending has you stealing Chloe's character growth, leaving her dying at the very lowest moment of her life and forces Max to actively take a part in her death and live with that knowledge.and resultant guilt as well as having the power to alter time but being prevented from ever using it. The only real conclusion to draw from this is that the world of LiS is controlled by a cruel god which likes to maximize suffering and who seems to hate Max on a pretty personal level. I get what the producers were going for but I can't get over the dissonance with the actual narrative which is why I think the ending bugs me so much. Captian Nuke fucked around with this message at 01:23 on May 16, 2016 |
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May 16, 2016 01:21
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Captian Nuke posted:The only real conclusion to draw from this is that the world of LiS is controlled by a cruel god which likes to maximize suffering and who seems to hate Max on a pretty personal level. Not really. Inscrutable and intractable cosmic justice is also a big part of magical realist stories. Max's problems don't hold a candle to the poo poo that the protagonists of "The Satanic Verses" go through, for one example.
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May 16, 2016 01:26
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I enjoyed this game a bunch, and I still have no idea how they play to do a sequel.
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May 16, 2016 02:42
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thorf posted:Why was Jefferson arrested? While I do feel like this Jefferson got caught cause Nathan as previously covered, I also think it's possible that this Max retained some if not all of her memories. Judging by the pictures we have to build the "Bay" Universe, I was left assuming that this Max actually retained the memories of the previous universe past the borders of the photo she jumped. Consoling Joyce and Frank, giving Joyce a box of mementos, and going specifically to the light house on the day the storm was supposed to hit / the eve of Chloe's funeral where her memories eventually catch up with themselves. I could be totally wrong in assuming that, but maybe when Chloe said "Don't forget me." It broke some part of the ~Time magic ruley stuff~ that makes Max forget and she was able to retain her memories and feeling for Chloe. That's what I like to believe. THE POWER OF LOVE and whatnot. It's plausible that Non-Chloe-lovin' Max would still comfort Joyce and David out of the goodness of her heart even though she hadn't seen Joyce and Chloe in so long, but I like to think that a memory retaining Max would be able to offer her much more genuine solace than a Max with out the memories that were recently developed.
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May 16, 2016 03:29
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The final choice upset me so much. I've seen SOOO many situations where using time-travel power to change something minor causes huge environmental effects in the future, and none of it comes across well to me. There's no direct relation to Chloe and the tornado, other than that Max discovered both at the same time. It's about the only time-travel story I've ever seen and it's so loving tiring. I can't stand it. To me, that's probably the main reason why I saved Chloe. I didn't want to follow that stupid story. I wanted to break through and follow a new story. I was also tired of Arcadia Bay with all the poo poo that happened there and wanted to see it burn.
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May 16, 2016 03:51
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The one thing that really irked me about the linkage of Max's power to the tornado was that the first vision of the tornado had already happened before she discovered and first used her power, right? It feels like it's portended regardless of her choices, because at that point she hasn't made any yet (at least not in her capacity as protagonist of LiS). Also nth-ing that the "save Chloe" ending seemed super lazy. The first thing I thought when I watched it was: wait, they're just going to gently caress off to somewhere? Everyone's going to think they died in the storm--that's a horrible thing to do to Max's parents.
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May 16, 2016 03:56
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Captian Nuke posted:Its because the game's themes and its actual narrative are in conflict. See also: why did Max have the dream of the hurricane destroying Arcadia Bay at the start of the game? If in the end she chooses to do nothing, the hurricane never happens, but the events of her photography class up until Chloe gets killed would be the same. Technically nothing goes wrong with time up until Max saves Chloe, and we already got the hurricane vision at the end of Monday, so why the dream during class?
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May 16, 2016 04:34
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Akratic Method posted:The one thing that really irked me about the linkage of Max's power to the tornado was that the first vision of the tornado had already happened before she discovered and first used her power, right? It feels like it's portended regardless of her choices, because at that point she hasn't made any yet (at least not in her capacity as protagonist of LiS). It gets worse. It also directly lead to her stumbling onto Chloe the first time. The vision caused itself.
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May 16, 2016 04:34
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