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To be a cynic, people with a fresh degree that are looking for menial jobs are basically the new wave of indentured servants. There's a huge chance that they'll have enormous debt hanging over their heads. If they're applying for a crap job or one not in their field, it's obvious that they're desperate. If they don't already have any marketable experience, then you know they have no leverage to find another job. You can easily make them work 80h no-overtime weeks on salary, work in terrible conditions or with unfit equipment, and basically take advantage of them in every possible way. Even if the person knows how to say "no" and actually stand up for themself, they won't risk doing it to someone above them in the only job they can get
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May 25, 2016 15:40
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oWk9gYSfME slowbeef did a video riffing on that automated restaurant thing from a few pages ago
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May 25, 2016 15:50
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On the other hand they don't have much to lose
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May 25, 2016 15:53
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KozmoNaut posted:Why the hell would they require a bachelor's degree? In the US, graduating high school used to mean that you were sufficiently competent at written English to communicate with others, good enough at math to pay your bills and balance a checkbook, and could get along well enough with others that you went 12 years without being imprisoned or dropping out. And hence were presumably employable. Since none of that poo poo is true anymore, the bachelor's degree is the new high school degree. Pretty soon, it'll be replaced with the master's degree.
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May 25, 2016 15:57
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Who put the ingredients in the little containers? Wouldn't it have been faster to just put them directly into the basket?
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May 25, 2016 16:06
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SLOSifl posted:Who put the ingredients in the little containers? God.
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May 25, 2016 16:18
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Phanatic posted:In the US, graduating high school used to mean that you were sufficiently competent at written English to communicate with others, good enough at math to pay your bills and balance a checkbook, and could get along well enough with others that you went 12 years without being imprisoned or dropping out. And hence were presumably employable. I love when people trot out "balance a checkbook" as if there should be a loving class in high school called "Balancing a Checkbook 1: Basic Foundations" and the lack of said class is a major indictment of the American school system. It involves subtraction and takes 5 minutes a month if you actually give a gently caress. "Good enough at math to pay your bills"... you mean you get the bill, look at the value, write a check for that value, and mail it in? If the value seems off, you call them. Maybe we need to offer a "how to wipe your own rear end" class too.
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May 25, 2016 16:22
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Pham Nuwen posted:I love when people trot out "balance a checkbook" as if there should be a loving class in high school called "Balancing a Checkbook 1: Basic Foundations" and the lack of said class is a major indictment of the American school system. "Balance a checkbook" Is shorthand for "competence at basic math," so if you like you can make that mental substitution whenever you read that phrase. It's sort of important if you want to do everyday adult tasks like keeping track of your own finances so you don't wind up buried in overdraft fees. Plenty of *college* students can't manage that. Eighty-two percent of high school seniors graduated on time in 2014, but the 2015 test results suggest that just 37 percent of seniors are academically prepared for college coursework in math and reading — meaning many seniors would have to take remedial classes if going on to college...In 2015, average math performance among seniors slipped two points, to 152 on a 300-point scale. The lack of math skills is a pretty major loving indictment of the American school system. Obviously there are plenty of good high schools, but since they're funded primarily by property taxes, they're pretty much all in wealthy suburban areas and the ones in poorer areas are in a cycle of you're-all-hosed from the get-go. That said, public school in the US is probably an obsolete technology anyway, since it's a system originally intended to keep kids off the streets until they're old enough to go get factory jobs. Now we've dropped all the useful vocational training they used to do, but still retain the absurd practice of grouping students by age instead of by capability and how much help they need.
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May 25, 2016 16:33
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Pham Nuwen posted:I love when people trot out "balance a checkbook" as if there should be a loving class in high school called "Balancing a Checkbook 1: Basic Foundations" and the lack of said class is a major indictment of the American school system. Because what do you do when you only have enough money this week to pay two out of the three bills? Oh poo poo suddenly you need new tires for your car too, what do you do? But remember you still need enough money for food and gas too! Yes, Budgeting/Finance management classes in late high-school should be a thing. Not just apart of Maths but an actual subject on how to plan/balance/manage money and issues, debt management is a BIG problem. It's not a year-long subject but it's still something that should be taught. A lot of people don't know you can call up and possibly get extensions on your bills for example.
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May 25, 2016 16:39
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Bring back home economics. Teach kids how to manage money, cook some basic meals, sew a button, change a tire, etc—basically, all the stuff that's been relegated to "how to adult" infographics.
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May 25, 2016 16:48
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all that stuff is a waste of time because it's not STEM
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May 25, 2016 16:59
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Toast Museum posted:Bring back home economics. Teach kids how to manage money, cook some basic meals, sew a button, change a tire, etc—basically, all the stuff that's been relegated to "how to adult" infographics. Did it leave? I took cooking in high school back in 2004, and could have taken sewing if I wanted. Wouldn't hurt to make it mandatory, though; IIRC we were only required to take one home-ec type class. It's a nice break to bake bread between physics and math classes. Wish I'd taken the auto class and metals. I had fun in two semesters of drafting, though (designed a whole house in the second one) and in "Home Maintenance", where we learned how to pour concrete and such.
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May 25, 2016 17:03
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Pham Nuwen posted:Did it leave? I took cooking in high school back in 2004, and could have taken sewing if I wanted. It wasn't offered in my high school at that time, and my possibly mistaken impression is that it's been fading out. Some quick googling says that about one in three high schoolers in the US takes something adjacent to home ec each year, which is frankly more than I would have guessed. I'm not sure what the trend is, though.
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May 25, 2016 17:19
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To me the problem with education is they don't teach you reasoning, they teach you little tricks. Especially a math course, they teach you little gotchas/tricks to pass some standardized test but they don't really hammer into the foundation or the reasoning of the trick. It's why kids go around asking "when are we going to ever use this??" regarding algebra or calculus, and no one ever gives the right answer; it's so you can have a strategy of solving abstract problems. A lot of times educators gloss over the strategy part and go "find the derivative of F(X)": 1: ??? 2: chain rule 3: profit You need the robust foundation before the tricks can even work and if the foundation is just flimsily built up of tricks then welp. darkhand has a new favorite as of 18:20 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 18:04
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Pham Nuwen posted:I love when people trot out "balance a checkbook" as if there should be a loving class in high school called "Balancing a Checkbook 1: Basic Foundations" and the lack of said class is a major indictment of the American school system. Paying bills and balancing a budget requires elementary school math, yes. But public school typically does absolutely nothing to teach kids how to actually do most of the poo poo they'll have to do as adults. There's no mandatory classes that teach you how to open a bank account or file your taxes, or how to get insurance. The classes and lessons that do exist are unlikely to teach you how to avoid getting scammed or cheated, too. Unless you take optional classes in the home economics category (which are dwindling from schools), there's a really good chance that you'll just kinda get thrust into adulthood knowing formulas for differential calculus and having written essays on F. Scott Fitzgerald but not knowing what a W-9 is or how it's different from a W-4. Just to give an anecdote, my high school was a well-funded A-grade public school with a diverse economic and racial makeup. Alumni made the news, programs were lauded across the state, one of our physics teachers did a charity stationary bike ride that taught the physics of cycling, etc. In general, a really nice school to put your kids through if you didn't want to pay for private. Throughout my 4 years there (2006 to 2010), I took only two classes that were directly related to learning how to adult. One of them (I think it was called Life Studies or something) taught extremely basic knowledge about things like sex and pregnancy (with a healthy dose of abstinence pushing) and escape routes for a fire, and I can't remember a drat thing from it. The other was called something like Food Safety and was basically a cooking class combined with a general food safety class, so you learned about stuff like the "danger zone" of temperature for storage in between trying to cook basic recipes. The actual knowledge of cooking that was taught was pretty limited, to the point where only the people who already had experience cooking at home were reliably able to make good meals for projects. I did take an economics class, but it was focused entirely on macroeconomics like bull vs. bear market. You sure as hell learned how the overarching national economy functioned, but nothing about your own personal finances. Everything about that, I had to learn myself through Internet research after graduating.
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May 25, 2016 18:43
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Phanatic posted:In the US, graduating high school used to mean that you were sufficiently competent at written English to communicate with others, good enough at math to pay your bills and balance a checkbook, and could get along well enough with others that you went 12 years without being imprisoned or dropping out. And hence were presumably employable. Yes, there are behavior problems today, but in the Good Old Days teachers were expected to beat unruly students. Yes, there are indifferent parents and drug abuse today, but there were indifferent parents and drunks then. Yes, there are teen pregnancies, but in the Good Old Days pregnant students weren't allowed even to attend high school. In my high school in 1977, you were expected to drop out once the pregnancy started showing. We are turning out a lot fewer educated students, but we have a different student base than we did in the past, there are no factory jobs for high-school dropouts, and on and on.
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May 25, 2016 18:49
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Pham Nuwen posted:cooking jfc was your school district personally funded by Carlos Slim Helú
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May 25, 2016 18:53
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Schools don't teach how to balance checkbooks, basic finance, and other things because those are literally the things children should be learning from their parents. And yes, baby boomer did a terrible loving job at that. That doesn't necessarily mean schools should teach those things. I'm all for practical application of knowledge, and math should include lessons on compounding interest and debt. But parents are still responsible for their own kids. I'd like to believe generation X and Y, having been hosed over by the Me generation are doing a better job of teaching their kids how to be adults. If not then my kid will at least have a leg up on her competition.
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May 25, 2016 18:59
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I guess the kids with no parents or single parents working off shifts can get hosed then. gently caress you anyway. Good you care about your kid but drat dude, a lot of students would benefit very much by practical life skills as much as they would by learning other things. I graduated from an at risk school and the biggest reason a lot of my classmates failed to launch as adults is that they did not even know the simplest poo poo about how the adult American world functioned, either because they were children of immigrants, taught bad habits by adults, or thought they didn't qualify for things that were completely in their power alone to control.
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May 25, 2016 19:41
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Wasabi the J posted:I guess the kids with no parents or single parents working off shifts can get hosed then. gently caress you anyway. Single parents can't teach their kids stuff? I'm not talking about vocational knowledge or sex education, since all those things can be lumped into academics or job training. But adding too much 'how to adult' learning into an already overstuffed curriculum makes it easier for parents to ignore it. I'm not saying avoid practical tie-in's - like discussing what 27% interest does to a credit card balance. But it's a slippery slope for schools. We wouldn't want parents become an obsolete technology. boom, avoided a derail
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May 25, 2016 20:02
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GOTTA STAY FAI posted:jfc was your school district personally funded by Carlos Slim Helú Small town school district in rural eastern Washington, in a town of about 2,000 people, 75% Hispanic. It really was a drat good school and I'm only coming to realize that later.
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May 25, 2016 20:34
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You learn how to open a bank account by going into a bank and telling them you want to open an account.
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May 25, 2016 20:42
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Krispy Kareem posted:an already overstuffed curriculum Tangential, but I never really understood this criticism. Moved to the States at the start of 10th grade (  ) and absolutely breezed through the most advanced classes my high school had to offer. I finished 5 separate math courses that year, taking them concurrently, as the school didn't know where to place me. This isn't on account of me being some genius. I'm perfectly average, but I had already studied the bulk of my NY school's curriculum in the old country. Behold, my 9th grade, year-round: Math, physics, chemistry, biology, history, English, Russian, Serbian, Latin (lol), music, art, phys ed, computer science (let's talk about obsolete tech!)... possibly geography? This was 20+ years ago, memory's starting to fade. But it was 5 days per week + every other Saturday morning for computer lab, 8am to ~3/4pm, with normal summer and winter breaks. By comparison, my semester in NY had 5-6 subjects. I know this is a lot of "back in my day/old country" poo poo, but it's why I don't get the "overstuffed curriculum" or "kids are overworked" arguments. Is it the focus on athletics or other clubs/extracurriculars that are at fault? I can get that -- in 9th grade I played guitar and basketball, but took lessons on my own and never had to go practice in a formal setting. I feel like there's absolutely time to add the more useful life skills, increase focus (i.e. funding) on arts, or bring back vocational training. If we could do that in the shitshow of former Yugoslavia, it can be done here.
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May 25, 2016 20:43
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Trabant posted:Tangential, but I never really understood this criticism. Moved to the States at the start of 10th grade ( I always found it amusing that a year spent as an exchange student in an American high school did not count for jack poo poo in gymnasium. But I bet it was a cool experience and who gives a poo poo if you graduated a year late 
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May 25, 2016 20:49
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I feel like the most effective thing would be to add classes about like how to do critical thinking and research and stuff. Stuff that prepares you for being unprepared, basically.
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May 25, 2016 21:02
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May 25, 2016 21:06
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Jerry Cotton posted:I always found it amusing that a year spent as an exchange student in an American high school did not count for jack poo poo in gymnasium. But I bet it was a cool experience and who gives a poo poo if you graduated a year late That's because the educational content of that year is highly questionable. I did a one-year stint as exchange student in the US and then went back to grades 11 and 12 at a German Gymnasium. I realize I am comparing two single school districts in different countries, but: what was taught at the US high school was piddly child's play bullshit. Material covered during the first couple years of an undergraduate engineering degree was mostly already covered in my last two Gymnasium years. The curriculum in US schools certainly doesn't seem stuffed, quite the opposite. There does seem to be an obsession with state and federal testing and preparing for it. It helps that in Germany, students are split into three paths mostly by ability and interest, in grades 5-7 (depends on the state) - some will choose to go to Hauptschule which ends after grade 9. Some will go to Realschule, terminating after 10th grade. Gymnasium means 12-13 grades (again, depending on state). That split makes it a lot easier to teach more advanced material to advanced students. Here, there's an insistence to teach everyone the same thing at the same slow pace. Because after all, EVERYONE has to go to college to be successful! There's my worthless opinion. TotalLossBrain has a new favorite as of 21:11 on May 25, 2016 |
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May 25, 2016 21:08
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I mean yeah I suppose you could get into "my kid is outsmarting me, this sucks" territory but...gently caress you guys, worth it.
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May 25, 2016 21:09
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Trabant posted:Tangential, but I never really understood this criticism. Moved to the States at the start of 10th grade ( The overstuffed curriculum is linked to standardized testing. For example, the first high stakes testing in Elementary School didn't focus on all subjects right away. Stuff like Science and Social Studies were phased in over several years. This meant all the attention was on Math and Reading. So what happened? Social Studies, more or less ceased to exist as a separate course. You still taught history, but you had to integrate it with Lit or Reading. Or in a pinch Math. There was a list of standards you had to successfully complete and a good lesson plan hit two or three subjects so you could justify your time in the classroom. And the standards you couldn't cram in there? Homework. I'm not as familiar with High School, but they don't have the same standardized testing that went on in Elementary (which is thankfully being toned down). So yeah, that's what I meant by overstuffed. You are literally planning your day down to the minute in order to cover all the material. And sure, you probably wouldn't teach finance 101 in 3rd grade - but adding more institutional responsibility at one level just rolls down the others eventually. At this point there's no more room in the day unless you want to scrap Arts and Physical Education.
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May 25, 2016 21:26
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TotalLossBrain posted:That's because the educational content of that year is highly questionable. I did a one-year stint as exchange student in the US and then went back to grades 11 and 12 at a German Gymnasium. I realize I am comparing two single school districts in different countries, but: what was taught at the US high school was piddly child's play bullshit. American public schooling is heavily focused on passing standardized tests of questionable value to adult life. Every class except for the ones that absolutely can't justify it (like Acting/Drama or dance classes) has multiple standardized tests throughout the semester(s), plus major state and federal exams like the PSAT, SAT, and in Florida for a long time the FCAT (replaced by the Florida Standards Assessment). The FCAT was the most ridiculous at its height, as they wanted everyone to take it from 3rd to 11th grade. Huge portions of my elementary school life got spent doing nothing but FCAT practice. Since it's a multiple choice exam (as many of these standardized tests are for the most part), it was mostly rote memorization. I know some people who struggled with this when they reached college. They did excellently in public school because it simply took rote memorization of textbooks and quiz answers to pass everything major. Then they hit college and have to actually demonstrate thorough understanding of the material and be capable of creative or three-dimensional thinking, and they smash right into a brick wall. Combine that with the extreme focus on STEM fields as the only fields that are worthwhile to get into if you want to be successful, and you've got a lot of stressed-out teens and twenty-somethings getting pushed into classes they haven't been adequately prepared for and going deeply into debt over it. And honestly, even 6 or 7 classes is a bit overstuffed for the amount of time available. In a 5-day school week, you only get about 45-60 minutes per day on a subject before running to the next class. My school tried to counter this by having one day a week only have 6 periods instead of 7 and having one of them last 90 minutes instead of 45, but that only helps you in one very specific class.
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May 25, 2016 21:30
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Really, a lot of the problem with education in the US is that we push every single student into a college preparatory program, even those who would not benefit from doing so, and then have to slow down the pace of education so that the slowest learners can keep up, and test the poo poo out of students to make sure the slowest learners are learning stuff they don't need. All because college is the One True Way™. We would do so much better by letting our students choose to take a vocational or college prep path somewhere around the freshman year. Don't neglect basic education, and let students change paths if the other catches their interest, or at least let the voc-ed students take college prep courses if they want to. But let the kids who need them to go on to college have the faster-paced STEM courses that expect you to want and enjoy learning the material. Let the other kids benefit by being able to come out of school as an apprentice electrician, or plumber, or welder, or mechanic, or whatever. Of course, this tied back into the fact that Americans look down on skilled blue-collar jobs because college is the One True Way™, ignoring the fact that we need a hell of a lot more plumbers than we need engineering students.
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May 25, 2016 23:36
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rndmnmbr posted:Really, a lot of the problem with education in the US is that we push every single student into a college preparatory program, even those who would not benefit from doing so, and then have to slow down the pace of education so that the slowest learners can keep up, and test the poo poo out of students to make sure the slowest learners are learning stuff they don't need. All because college is the One True Way™. My wife and I both went to a local technical/vocational college for different programs. After she graduated, she went back to work for the college for a couple years. They had changed most of their programs and advertisements to promote being a path to 4 year university. While I do think taking a 2 year community college or accredited college Associates track is a valid way to work towards a 4 year degree while saving money, this school has been doing so at the expense of their other programs that have a lot of value. I don't know if this is a trend with other schools, or just this local one.
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May 25, 2016 23:41
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Apprentice? That sounds like union talk, we can't have none of that! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_VL4gqrCHc
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May 25, 2016 23:44
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Trabant posted:... but it's why I don't get the "overstuffed curriculum" or "kids are overworked" arguments. Is it the focus on athletics or other clubs/extracurriculars that are at fault? That is probably a component, sure. My oldest kid is only in school from 7:30 - 2:45, but she also has her academic competitions, school orchestra, youth city council, a youth group where she mentors, and her after-school job. A lot of these things are only once or twice a week but they tend to stack up and she has very little free time and she spends (or is supposed to spend) a lot of that doing homework.
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May 25, 2016 23:50
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titties posted:That is probably a component, sure. My oldest kid is only in school from 7:30 - 2:45, but she also has her academic competitions, school orchestra, youth city council, a youth group where she mentors, and her after-school job. A lot of these things are only once or twice a week but they tend to stack up and she has very little free time and she spends (or is supposed to spend) a lot of that doing homework. Most of the things you listed there just aren't strong components of the German school system (from what I remember 20 years ago mind you and what I see with my nephews currently). Sports? Tough, if you want team sports other than what's covered in 3 hours PE, do it on your own time. The type of HS athletics that happen here are unheard of (at least in the state I grew up in). Orchestra? Okay, that's one hour of instruction per week. No more. After-school job? Not likely when you're <18. It's really a combination of under-filled and over-tested curriculum and boat loads of what should be extra-curricular activities crammed into a regular school day. Plus, what another poster above me said: for some reason, EVERYONE is encouraged to go to college and to prepare for it. I have never seen a strong focus on vocational programs here and I don't understand why. I have quite a few blue collar friends and they tend to make as much, if not more money than I do as an engineer. They work a lot of overtime, but their hourly rates are comparable.
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May 26, 2016 00:19
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The extracurricular activities aren't usually part of the school day. The school day is 7 to 8 hours, but activities like band rehearsals, Color Guard, theatre, and sports are held afterward. It's also expected for any students with cars to take up a job to pay for their own gas, and poor students often have to work to help their family. It's just that you don't get a lot of focus on anything important when you get forced into calculus and advanced chemistry that you have no plans to study in college.
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May 26, 2016 01:14
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TotalLossBrain posted:Plus, what another poster above me said: for some reason, EVERYONE is encouraged to go to college and to prepare for it. I have never seen a strong focus on vocational programs here and I don't understand why. I have quite a few blue collar friends and they tend to make as much, if not more money than I do as an engineer. They work a lot of overtime, but their hourly rates are comparable. There are three big reasons I can think of: 1) Unemployment rates are unambiguously worse for those without higher education:  Obviously, this doesn't take into account that a professional plumber or welder may make tons of money without a BS while you may be jobless with a degree in dance, but it's the kind of chart that drives fear into the hearts of parents. Recessions hit people without college degrees harder, so the fear is not entirely unfounded. 2) Options, or lack thereof. A degree lets you adjust, change tracks. It's a stamp of approval by an institution, dammit. My wife is an English major who went from commercial PR to govt communications to startup to freelancer. I'm overeducated, but it let me switch tracks a few times as well. But if you're a master plumber and burn out (which happened to me in engineering), I don't know that there are many other options for you. And, almost as importantly, you take your degree with you wherever you go -- a small business owner or one-man-shop proprietor doesn't quite have that mobility. 3) Frankly, opening minds to both what you want to do and the world around you (which sounds too optimistic but I'd like to think it does happen). If you start apprenticing at 17 or 18, you're closer to locking yourself into a very specific career vs someone who takes a college path. Closely related to point #2, but more of a "figure poo poo out" view from the onset. I don't think there are too many high school seniors who really know what they want to do. You could easily argue that enrolling in a major at that age isn't much better though. As for the crippling debt that comes with college... It's the American way 
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May 26, 2016 01:26
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darkhand posted:To me the problem with education is they don't teach you reasoning, they teach you little tricks. Especially a math course, they teach you little gotchas/tricks to pass some standardized test but they don't really hammer into the foundation or the reasoning of the trick. As a newly-minted high school physics teacher this as been the most frustrating part of my first year. If I ask my students a question that requires then to infer something about reality based on math they are baffled and annoyed by what they perceive as a nonsensical and wholly alien type of question. (Example: You're pushing a box along the floor. Given that force = mass x acceleration, if the mass is constant what happens to the acceleration when the force is decreased? [Yeah, really. They think it's just a math question and don't bring their basic logic to bear.]) It's easy to lay the blame on their previous math teachers, but I suspect that they're required to teach and reinforce so many basic mechanical aspects of math that they aren't able to spend the time to get into mathematical reasoning. But even with that, a decent percentage of the kids I've been teaching are still unable to rearrange three-variable equations like F=ma to solve for acceleration after a full year of practicing it. (Forget trying to solve F=Gm1m2/r2 for radius, though some kids can work it out, and quickly, too.) A heartening percentage have been able to find the acceleration when given the force and mass on the final, but it's ridiculous that they're learning this skill in their eleventh year of school. I'm not a math teacher, but I'm probably going to spend a week or so at the start of the next semester teaching "tricks", or rather, rules, to rearrange equations because that's a basic skill that is needed to pass (and understand) my course. I suspect the elementary and middle school math teachers are in the same boat that I'm in. BTW, keep in mind that I also teach AP (advanced placement) courses, which are much smaller. The kids in those courses are quickly able to infer things about reality based on equations, and they understand what happens to acceleration when force is lessened. Several of my students would make excellent scientists if that's what they pursued. We also have cooking, auto mechanic, and health services classes. I'm in Texas, by the way.
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May 26, 2016 02:48
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TotalLossBrain posted:Most of the things you listed there just aren't strong components of the German school system (from what I remember 20 years ago mind you and what I see with my nephews currently). Most of the stuff I mentioned is extra-curricular. Some of it uses the school buildings after-hours but a lot of it is not related to school at all. I went to the same school she does, and my school days were a full hour longer than hers, and I assume some of that is in response to the "kids are overworked thing". She is busier than I ever was, even though I worked more hours after school and went to school longer. I assume it also helps the school by reducing their operating hours and therefor costs. As an aside, it is not uncommon in America for kids to get a job at the age of 15 or so. These days they are often competing with 40-year-olds for the same minimum wage jobs and a lot of local places prefer hiring the teenagers because they can treat them like poo poo and the kids don't know any better. E: I should add that none of her activities are required, but she wants to go to a real school instead of community college like I did and it is a lot easier to get into someplace decent if you have a stupid amount of community outreach / involvement and extra-curriculars. titties has a new favorite as of 03:18 on May 26, 2016 |
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May 26, 2016 03:15
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Plus the activities are sometimes just fun. I did theatre because I genuinely enjoyed it. Same with the Ballroom Dance Club (which was a miserable failure in the end).
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May 26, 2016 03:21
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