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Is this game even full? I don't even know, I'm just enjoying this conversation. It's really great analysis.
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May 31, 2016 03:43
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Asiina posted:I agree that Hamilton's way of doing things is a very scary ends justify the means, but Burr's complete lack of moral fibre is equally terrifying. Hamilton wants certain things to happen and is willing to go to any length to get them done. Burr literally has no beliefs in the entire show other than his love for his daughter. You can't rely on someone like that in power to actually affect change that will reflect what you want out of your government. It's a purely selfish desire and for an official who is supposed to represent the people's interests, that's dangerous. Fighting in a war effort is a strong belief in and of itself, even if he hedged until he thought the time was right. I'm far, far more scared of somebody who is obsessed with an end than I am of someone who is just a power seeker. A power seeker will be pragmatic and measured, a zealot with burn everything down.
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May 31, 2016 03:45
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Absurd Revolver posted:To be fair, shooting Hamilton sort of broke him afterwards by all accounts. Maybe after you shoot a political rival, you try and take over Mexico? His run for presidency was already a fairly transparent power grab. He had strong personal convictions and acted on them, his raising of Theodosia was really progressive and everything, but his political actions were always just power moves.
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May 31, 2016 03:46
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:My favourite real life Burr story was when he fled to texas after murdering another founding father, where upon he commited treason in a bid to annex texas and become an emperor. Yep, totally identify with Burr.
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May 31, 2016 03:46
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Asiina posted:Is this game even full? I don't even know, I'm just enjoying this conversation. It's really great analysis. Agree. I don't know the show as well as you guys do, but I am really enjoying reading everyone's insights. 
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May 31, 2016 03:48
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So why is power grabbing bad? Because I'm not accepting it as an inherently bad thing. Of course, I also support Hilary Clinton, so there's that.
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May 31, 2016 03:52
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Like if we accept that power grabs are assholes moves, then people who aren't assholes should power grab more often to keep it away from assholes more often.
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May 31, 2016 03:53
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ambition, arrogance, and failure are my favorite character traits
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May 31, 2016 03:55
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CCKeane posted:Fighting in a war effort is a strong belief in and of itself, even if he hedged until he thought the time was right. I agree that a fanatic is scary in ways that someone who just wants power isn't, but you have the comfort of knowing what the fanatic believes and what he will fight for, because he's going to loving tell you in 10,000 words if you give him the chance. The person with blind ambition is a mystery though. Will they work in your interests? Will they support you when you need them? Or will you be abandoned in the face of their own personal gain? There's no way to know and people who don't have a strong system of beliefs to guide them are ones that can let atrocities happen as long as their lot in life continues to improve.
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May 31, 2016 03:56
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CCKeane posted:So why is power grabbing bad? Because I'm not accepting it as an inherently bad thing. Of course, I also support Hilary Clinton, so there's that. I don't think it's bad on its own, but it's bad when that's the sole thing you want. Burr seems to want power for his own sake and once he gets that power then ????? Hamilton wants power because he has strong beliefs and wants to be in a position where he can make what he believes a reality and he's going to keep wanting more power until there's nobody to stand in his way.
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May 31, 2016 03:58
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Asiina posted:I agree that a fanatic is scary in ways that someone who just wants power isn't, but you have the comfort of knowing what the fanatic believes and what he will fight for, because he's going to loving tell you in 10,000 words if you give him the chance. The person with blind ambition is a mystery though. Will they work in your interests? Will they support you when you need them? Or will you be abandoned in the face of their own personal gain? There's no way to know and people who don't have a strong system of beliefs to guide them are ones that can let atrocities happen as long as their lot in life continues to improve. Fanatics cause those atrocities directly because they are so convinced in their stances that nothing else matters.
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May 31, 2016 04:02
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Another fun Hamilton and Burr story. After Hamilton created the First National Bank, he had a monopoly on banking in New York through the New York branch that he owned. Burr wanted to start his own Bank to get back at that pesky Hamilton, but it's harder to do that when you're not the treasurer. He started a company for the express purpose of building water infrastructure. Then he applied for a permit to open a bank with any excess funds. He raised $2000000 and spent $100000 on water and used the remaining $1900000 to start a bank. That bank is now part of JPMorgan Chase, the largest bank in America. As for the thing the company was supposed to do, he did such a bad job on the the water supply that there were cholera epidemics directly caused by failings of the infrastructure for the next 40 years until it was fixed by the city.
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May 31, 2016 04:02
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Also turns out we are full. I can start the game tonight if you want, if you don't mind my not really being around for the next two days.
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May 31, 2016 04:03
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Asiina posted:Also turns out we are full. I can start the game tonight if you want, if you don't mind my not really being around for the next two days. DOOOO IT I NEEEED THIS
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May 31, 2016 04:03
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My favourite Burr story is that Burr was the lawyer representing Maria Reynolds in her divorce from James Reynolds.
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May 31, 2016 04:04
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Asiina posted:Also turns out we are full. I can start the game tonight if you want, if you don't mind my not really being around for the next two days. I'm willing to wait for it.
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May 31, 2016 04:05
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Asiina posted:Also turns out we are full. I can start the game tonight if you want, if you don't mind my not really being around for the next two days. *as madison* please
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May 31, 2016 04:05
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Worth noting that when I say I identify with Aaron Burr, I'm just referring to the musical character not the real life guy.Asiina posted:My favourite Burr story is that Burr was the lawyer representing Maria Reynolds in her divorce from James Reynolds. drat didn't know that.
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May 31, 2016 04:06
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Asiina posted:My favourite Burr story is that Burr was the lawyer representing Maria Reynolds in her divorce from James Reynolds. i like to think that she went to hamilton and he was like "whoooa no way conflict of interest but i know a guy"
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May 31, 2016 04:07
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all the founding fathers were pretty much assholes, its just a matter of picking your favorite type of rear end in a top hat
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May 31, 2016 04:09
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I really wanted to be clever, but I can't think of a reference, so yes please start it!
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May 31, 2016 04:10
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My standards are pretty low, If they didn't own slaves that makes them one of the good ones.
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May 31, 2016 04:11
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Alright, role PMs will go out over the next hour or so. I'm on my laptop in a bed, so it's a pain to copy and paste things. I'll leave the thread open so keep talking.
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May 31, 2016 04:12
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i hope hamilton leads to a new genre of history hip hop musicals please enjoy "Subutai, Here I come"
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May 31, 2016 04:13
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Asiina posted:Also turns out we are full. I can start the game tonight if you want, if you don't mind my not really being around for the next two days. I'm ok waiting - a little worried about the game not picking up momentum if we start but then not much happens for two days.
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May 31, 2016 04:13
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Mithridates: The Poison King would legit be a good oneMMM Whatchya Say posted:My standards are pretty low, If they didn't own slaves that makes them one of the good ones. agreed.
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May 31, 2016 04:14
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CCKeane posted:Fanatics cause those atrocities directly because they are so convinced in their stances that nothing else matters. I really want to expand on this because I'm so, so, so, uncomfortable with the idea that self-righteousness and a vision is a desirable quality. There are 300 million people in America with incredibly diverse needs. A Montana ranchers votes for a senator that sits in the same chamber as one I would for. The only way stuff can work at all is if there is some measure of agreement on what actions are and aren't okay. I know enough radicals that cheer violence against people that they despise, and they remain oblivious to the fact that people despise what they stand for as well, and okaying violence on people you despise is okaying violence on pretty much everybody. And many of these people have stances I ostensibly agree with! I'm really mad at how my parents were treated as a direct result of a lot of capitalism. I'm furious that health care, while improving, still has huge barriers to entry. I'm talking about these issues because they are close enough to me that I cant just be shrugged off as not understanding. If I could wave a wand and make it so that my parents retirement wouldn't have to be uncomfortable after my dad worked until he was 73 and make it so health scares didn't have the additional scare of cost, I'd do it, of course. But not at the cost of having violence considered acceptable, and not even at the cost of the physical well-being of people i dislike. That's not a world we should aim for, not even in exchange for things that are right and just, because the right and just thing can't happen at the cost of another justice. Then it's just hubris and politics.
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May 31, 2016 04:15
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Another fun Hamilton and Burr story. Man, I'm quoting my own post here, but I forgot to mention that Burr's company made water pipelines by hollowing out tree trunks. Seriously.
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May 31, 2016 04:16
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Keane how do you feel about the war of independence?
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May 31, 2016 04:17
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There are founding fathers, then there's Ben Franklin.
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May 31, 2016 04:19
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Keane how do you feel about the war of independence? I'ma see how the wind blows.
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May 31, 2016 04:20
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Absurd Revolver posted:There are founding fathers, then there's Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin is very overrated and is in many ways the original "chuck norris" meme even all the way back then
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May 31, 2016 04:21
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FYI the real Philip Hamilton was super hot.
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May 31, 2016 04:25
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The real hero of the revolution was the guy that made fun of John Adams when he sent his diary over.
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May 31, 2016 04:25
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PBS Newshour posted:Ben Franklin is very overrated and is in many ways the original "chuck norris" meme even all the way back then Oh I know. Franklin was crazy. Not necessarily in a good way.
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May 31, 2016 04:27
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The best founding father was, uh, *spins wheel* John Jay
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May 31, 2016 04:30
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:The best founding father was, uh, *spins wheel* John Jay The XYZ Affair begs to differ!!! John Marshall may not be a Founding Father, but he's close, and also the best.
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May 31, 2016 04:37
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1.) I can't believe Asiina made me "that person crinkling a candy wrapper two rows behind you" 2.) I can't believe Asiina made that role town.
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May 31, 2016 04:47
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confirmed for best role
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May 31, 2016 04:49
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Absurd Revolver posted:confirmed for best role A Kaiser?
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May 31, 2016 04:50
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