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Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Count Chocula posted:

I'm surprised that Leonard J Krabs hasn't got amy emails or phone calls about it, since you could run some games from this thread.

I'm pretty sure not. It wouldn't really be practical even if it was true.

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Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


Young Freud posted:

This is like the whole thing with "Why is there an Ayatollah in Iran and not the Shah?" or "Saddam invades Kuwait" from last book. There's literally no reason for those two places to be destroyed in an alternate timeline if there was no nukes. Hell, there was little reason to bomb Nagasaki, it was just that the primary target of Kokura was obscured by smoke from a firebombing sortie the previous day and Bockscar had the orders to drop it visually. Kokura was the secondary target if for some reason skies over Hiroshima weren't clear, so it's a complete fluke that it wasn't bombed. Any other day besides August 6th and August 9th, Kokura would have been a crater.

"Why do geopolitics and history look anything like our world if WWII was abruptly stopped by a superhero in 1943? The answer is flurp durp fart."

Lynx Winters
May 1, 2003

Borderlawns: The Treehouse of Pandora

I Am Just a Box posted:

I've been thinking for a bit that the Awakening and Forsaken posts have been short on summarizing and suffered for it, but at this point I'm starting to wonder how much detail you can go into before you're just kind of transcribing the book into the thread. Is it just me?

It's not just you.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
Yeah I've thought of that too while coming up with F&F ideas. I'm really more of an mechanics fan, so I'm always wondering just how much of the book can I allude to before I'm giving it away.

And on things like Spheres of Power where I'm basically just rewording/paraphrasing spell descriptions.

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*

Look at the pixellisation on that. That's not me, that's how it looks in the actual pdf.

I backed AMP: Year One on Kickstarter ages ago, largely because I'm a sucker for superhero games and I was lured in by ad copy that promised "fully integrat[ing] powers and character Loyalties into almost every die roll" and other such modern game mechanics that pull a character's personality and loyalties into the resolution system. Like Masks, or Fate, or Legends of the Wulin, or any number of other games which do exactly that.

I was... disappointed. I figured I'd F&F this game in an attempt to analyse my own distaste for it, and also because I am apparently the only person who doesn't think this thing shines like a goddamn diamond. It gets slews of five-star reviews, and Years Two and Three have both been successfully Kickstarted; clearly people have found something to love here. With a detailed read, maybe I can find it too?

Just to lay out my biases before we get started: as far as I'm concerned Marvel Heroic Roleplaying is the gold standard for superhero RPGs. I like Masks, too. Before that I was a big fan of Mutants and Masterminds (and Crooks is still one of my top three favourite RPG supplements) but I'm more and more of the opinion that crunchy systems are a bad way to do anything, superheroes included. This may be the root of my dislike of AMP, but we'll see.

Introduction
This is literally the first thing you see when you start reading:

quote:

People have always wondered about the next stage in evolution, and everyone clamors to be the one to unlock the secret. Finding the missing link is every scientists dream and they'd happily step over each other's corpses to be the one to name such a find. Throughout human history have been plenty of instances where scientists went too far and governments attempted to force such a change at the barrel of a gun. Of course, they always conduct these shadow experiments behind guarded concrete walls, as their scientists get in on the action.

AMP: Year One is the result of one such hidden experiment that, without the scientists knowing... their attempts worked almost too well.

I count four outright grammatical errors, plus a lot of weird phrasing. These first two paragraphs set the tone for the writing in the rest of the book: clunky and error-prone.

Anyway.

The first chapter has a potted history of 'AMPs' -- the in-setting name for people with powers, which stands for Accelerated Mutant Potential

quote:

and [is] a reflection of their often hyper,excited dispositions.

A side note: AMPYO is marketed as a grim, low-powered setting. Even if AMPs did have "hyper,excited dispositions" (which they don't, at least any more than anyone else) it would be spectacularly out of place among the shady government conspiracies and low-key action.

Anyway.

The potted history is that "generations ago" a bunch of scientists from around the world got together to build a super-soldier powerful enough to end war forever. My first impression is that this is ridiculous, but gently caress it -- I've accepted flimsier justifications from games and comics, so it would be unfair of me to rag on AMPYO for this. Anyway, there were serums, rampaging mutants, a military cover-up and then the whole thing was abandoned. Fast forward to now, and the descendants of the surviving test subjects are a) suddenly developing powers and b) being mysteriously disappeared. This is where the game starts: with the new appearance and rise of superhumans, of which the player characters are some.

The mood summary gives us three points to bear in mind: the burdens of being a new superhero, the question of what having powers does to the AMP, and the mystery of where the AMPs come from and what the future holds.

If that last point sounds like 90s metaplot, you'd be spot on. The game's not bad about giving out the whole history, but future developments? Better buy Years Two and Three to see what happens next!

Next is a quick overview of the various strains of AMP, which are basically 'classes' that define what each AMP can do. If you're familiar with the strains from Double Cross, it's pretty much exactly the same sort of system. I'll abbreviate the quick rundown here:

  • Blasters manipulate energy.
  • Bulks are people, but better.
  • Elementals control "Earth, Fire and Air".
  • Ferals emulate animals.
  • Mindbenders bend minds.
  • Psychs have the other psychic powers: telepathy, psychometry, astral projection, etc.
  • Shapers manipulate "the various things one can see and touch in their environment, including ... controlling luck". :eng99:
  • Shifters are shapechangers.
  • Travelers can teleport and bend time.

There's the obligatory 'What is a Roleplaying Game?' section and an example of play, neither of which contains anything out of the ordinary, and a very brief description of the system which I'm going to skip because the full system description pops up in chapter four and we can deal with it then.

----

Thoughts: Well, that was certainly an introduction. So far my main takeaway is that the editing is awful and the layout is just bad enough to annoy me. And that logo! The pixels! It makes me cringe every time I see it.

Next Time: Chapter One. Because the Introduction doesn't get a chapter number?

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
Yeah, after having AMP enthusiastically recommended in another thread, I gave it a look because I'm always interested in a good superhero game, and I admit I was bewildered at what the fuss was about.

The background stuff is hackneyed, and I'd be a lot harsher on it. Trying to understand how a international scientific team went from zero to Mengele is explained by them being eager to show their findings... even though... they didn't have any findings... and yeah, I wouldn't excuse it based on genre conventions. It's just badly written or badly explained or both.

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*
The background stuff isn't great, no, but I'd feel like a bit of a hypocrite laying into it while I'm a-ok with Captain America or Jenny Sparks.

Also, the scientists jumped straight to human trials because they were "eager to impress the world" and that doesn't seem far out of line with 1920s scientists. They went full Mengele only later on because all the ones who didn't want to were disappeared by the eeeeevil multi-government conspiracy responsible for the whole thing.

Which is all w/e because a) none of it will be important by the time we get to the modern day except to establish that governments are eeeeevil and b) there are plenty of other things to rag on this game about.

potatocubed fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Jun 3, 2016

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
Yeah, the main thing with the 3rd eye games stuff, at least for me, is that the guys behind it are enthusiastic, friendly, and actually pretty solid at running their business; the games themselves are just...sort of solidly mediocre in a mid-nineties way.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

I think in a couple of old Zero Punctuation reviews Yahtzee takes the piss out of Super Soldier programs. While I can't fault legacies like Captain America, anything made now has to at least consider "how is this more effective than just using drones and nukes?"

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 21 minutes!
If I remember right, he's specifically taken aim at the "Let's give someone superpowers by torturing them and making them hate us!" cliche.


Kinda related, since I've been ragging on Brave New World and Underground: Garth Ennis' The Boys is, to a great extent, all about the idea of superheroes as a defense strategy. To make a long story short, superheroes are a poo poo idea for national defense for a number of obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean that a multi-billion dollar corporation won't lobby (and downright infiltrate) the gently caress out of the federal government to try to make it happen.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jun 3, 2016

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

I Am Just a Box posted:

I've been thinking for a bit that the Awakening and Forsaken posts have been short on summarizing and suffered for it, but at this point I'm starting to wonder how much detail you can go into before you're just kind of transcribing the book into the thread. Is it just me?

Yes. Please do shorter summaries.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Halloween Jack posted:

If I remember right, he's specifically taken aim at the "Let's give someone superpowers by torturing them and making them hate us!" cliche.


Kinda related, since I've been ragging on Brave New World and Underground: Garth Ennis' The Boys is, to a great extent, all about the idea of superheroes as a defense strategy. To make a long story short, superheroes are a poo poo idea for national defense for a number of obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean that a multi-billion dollar corporation won't lobby (and downright infiltrate) the gently caress out of the federal government to try to make it happen.

So like the F-35, then? :v:

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 21 minutes!
I've been guilty of writing some really long rear end entries, so with a few exceptions where I really want to critique something at length, I sometimes look at the wordcount of a chapter and make sure that my review is a small fraction of that.

Of course, I mostly review old bad games. Truth is, if someone wants to know absolutely everything about it, they'll pirate a copy.

SirPhoebos posted:

So like the F-35, then? :v:
Engineering good supers costs Vought-American billions of dollars, but probably still less than the real government has pissed away on the F-35. It's killed fewer people, though.

The series features a lot of Ellis' childish and gross sense of humour at work, I admit. But there are benefits to this, like "crossover events" (invaders from Mars and whatnot) being an excuse for the superhero community to blow off steam at a massive week-long sex party every year.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jun 3, 2016

BinaryDoubts
Jun 6, 2013

Looking at it now, it really is disgusting. The flesh is transparent. From the start, I had no idea if it would even make a clapping sound. So I diligently reproduced everything about human hands, the bones, joints, and muscles, and then made them slap each other pretty hard.

Speleothing posted:

Yes. Please do shorter summaries.

I personally like longer write-ups when they're digging into the themes and history of the game - more analysis/criticism than just rewriting spell lists. Much respect to Mors for the amount of time he's dedicated to the thread, but I've started scrolling past his write-ups since I'm just not that interested in the really specific bits and bobs of these games.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
I don't like doing mechanics dumps in favor of going into the more meaningful implications of what they mean. Like for Beast I'm definitely going to go into detail on their feeding rules because that's a pretty damned important thing but I'm not going to faithfully reproduce the rules for all the nightmares and atavisms unless the implications of those rules are bullshit like they are with "You Deserve This".

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*

SirPhoebos posted:

I think in a couple of old Zero Punctuation reviews Yahtzee takes the piss out of Super Soldier programs. While I can't fault legacies like Captain America, anything made now has to at least consider "how is this more effective than just using drones and nukes?"

To be fair, this particular program was incepted in the 1920s, so we're looking at a time when the cutting edge of military technology was tanks, machine guns, and single-wing fighter planes. If you could make a guy who was literally bulletproof, that really would change the face of warfare -- especially if he could be mass-produced or, as it turns out, breed true.

Halloween Jack posted:

If I remember right, he's specifically taken aim at the "Let's give someone superpowers by torturing them and making them hate us!" cliche.

Aimed and hit square on.

I'd post the next chapter but I've left all the documents on my work computer so it'll have to wait until Monday.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Re: write-ups. I dislike the long text dumps personally, but I understand that summarizing is a lot of work. I also really dislike long blocks of texts, which is why I've been inserting art and quotes into my write-up (well, aside from DiTerlizzi being rad).

Echo Cian
Jun 16, 2011

BinaryDoubts posted:

I personally like longer write-ups when they're digging into the themes and history of the game - more analysis/criticism than just rewriting spell lists. Much respect to Mors for the amount of time he's dedicated to the thread, but I've started scrolling past his write-ups since I'm just not that interested in the really specific bits and bobs of these games.

I can't read them either even though I've tried. A combination of too much detail to the point that it's basically just transcribing the book (if I wanted to read this much information instead of just getting an overview, I'd get the book) without much actual commentary to make it interesting, massive paragraphs that aren't broken up, and images that are just more words. My eyes slide off the screen every time.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Speaking as someone who does go into mechanical detail for the Torg stuff; do people not like that? I try not to get into the insane detail the actual books get into on the fluff, but I try to mitigate the crunch with some discussion.

Also I like AMP. v:shobon:v I don't think it's the greatest supers game ever but I like the mechanics and how it deliberately hits all the 90's comics cliches.

BinaryDoubts
Jun 6, 2013

Looking at it now, it really is disgusting. The flesh is transparent. From the start, I had no idea if it would even make a clapping sound. So I diligently reproduced everything about human hands, the bones, joints, and muscles, and then made them slap each other pretty hard.

Kurieg posted:

I don't like doing mechanics dumps in favor of going into the more meaningful implications of what they mean. Like for Beast I'm definitely going to go into detail on their feeding rules because that's a pretty damned important thing but I'm not going to faithfully reproduce the rules for all the nightmares and atavisms unless the implications of those rules are bullshit like they are with "You Deserve This".

I was specifically thinking about your and (to a lesser extent, Evil Mastermind's) reviews because you're actually critiquing what you're writing about. (Also, I really enjoyed the podcast!)

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Evil Mastermind posted:

Speaking as someone who does go into mechanical detail for the Torg stuff; do people not like that? I try not to get into the insane detail the actual books get into on the fluff, but I try to mitigate the crunch with some discussion.

Also I like AMP. v:shobon:v I don't think it's the greatest supers game ever but I like the mechanics and how it deliberately hits all the 90's comics cliches.

I think your reviews are fine, because you editorialize your entries and add pictures. They're a little heavy, but within tolerable limits for me.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

My comfort zone for all my reviews is one chapter per post, but Torg is ridiculously dense a lot of the time both in terms of fluff (20 pages just on the cosm, a.k.a. that reality you can't actually go to) and often with the mechanics (c.f. the Orrorsh stuff about tracking down horrors, or the Nile Empire's gadget rules). Believe me, as it is I'm skipping a lot of detail.

To give an example of how dense this poo poo is: Aysle has an eight-page chunk of fiction explaining, in detail, how magic works in-game. As in the actual metaphysics of magic, how spells are cast, what the knowledges mean, everything. Eight pages. In comparison, the chapter describing the realm itself is 16 pages. I'm really debating text-dumping the whole thing into a gdoc or pastebin or something as part of the review because it's so dumb.

And yes, I'm still planning on trying to design a spell.

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

I Am Just a Box posted:

I've been thinking for a bit that the Awakening and Forsaken posts have been short on summarizing and suffered for it, but at this point I'm starting to wonder how much detail you can go into before you're just kind of transcribing the book into the thread. Is it just me?

While I can't speak for Awakening/Forsaken, I remember looking between the book and the review for some of the In Nomine reviews earlier for this exact reason. While they're not exactly 1:1, they're pretty close.

Tasoth
Dec 13, 2011
I don't mind the long review, I'm just unsure of how much detail to go into the mechanics. I need to get back to my Armageddon review and that's a good example. The mechanics I have covered are also available for free in the Witchcraft PDF. But if there isn't some free document with the mechanics, I feel kind of guilty if I go into depth since a clever person doesn't have to buy the book to play the game.

Young Freud
Nov 26, 2006

Halloween Jack posted:

If I remember right, he's specifically taken aim at the "Let's give someone superpowers by torturing them and making them hate us!" cliche.

And, even with drones and nukes, we're still trying to develop powered exoskeleton and cybernetic interfaces and selfaiming weapons with the end goal of achieving the same power equivalence in infantry combat that we have in air combat. In short, an American infantryman would be equivalent to a F22 fighting guerrilla prop planes.


quote:

Kinda related, since I've been ragging on Brave New World and Underground: Garth Ennis' The Boys is, to a great extent, all about the idea of superheroes as a defense strategy. To make a long story short, superheroes are a poo poo idea for national defense for a number of obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean that a multi-billion dollar corporation won't lobby (and downright infiltrate) the gently caress out of the federal government to try to make it happen.

The thing with Underground is that it's more Superpowered Blackwater than Superpowered SAC.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

potatocubed posted:

Aimed and hit square on.

I'm running a Double Cross Parasite Eve campaign soon where the twist is that the people tending the magic mitochondria superhumans treat them like people and generally try to be understanding and kind, because they know if they don't the chances one of their prize monster hunters goes mad and wipes out part of a metropolitan area go way up.

Also in keeping with PE1 and 2's 'surprisingly competent and helpful authorities' schtick.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 21 minutes!

Kurieg posted:

I don't like doing mechanics dumps in favor of going into the more meaningful implications of what they mean. Like for Beast I'm definitely going to go into detail on their feeding rules because that's a pretty damned important thing but I'm not going to faithfully reproduce the rules for all the nightmares and atavisms unless the implications of those rules are bullshit like they are with "You Deserve This".

Evil Mastermind posted:

Speaking as someone who does go into mechanical detail for the Torg stuff; do people not like that? I try not to get into the insane detail the actual books get into on the fluff, but I try to mitigate the crunch with some discussion.
Beast and Torg are cases where I think it's worthwhile to write at length, at least in parts, because they represent something bigger than the game itself. In the former case, you're seeing a respected company take a massive misstep, with the head developer repeating and reinforcing bad ideas that are all too common in the medium. In the latter case, you're looking at a smorgasbord of the kind of things writers wanted to do with settings in the 90s, only to be dragged down by finicky, nuts-and-bolts rules trying to represent the interplay of genres and themes.

Like, Legacy is an unremarkable, slapdash little game, in a vacuum. The review would have been significantly shorter had I just summarized it, but it wouldn't be worth doing at all just to summarize it. It was one of the earliest and most egregious of the "Me, too!" games that came out after Vampire became a smash hit.

Hostile V
May 31, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

My personal rule of thumb is "did I have trouble reading this and if so how would I make it easier for someone else to read?" I never really care about the mechanics. I'm way more interested in the fluff and the play options (which is the only reason I did Reign of Steel; the fluff of that is excellent but gently caress me do I know nothing about GURPS). BNW is great for me because it's a pretty simple system...implemented without a very good sense of scale and with a very strong focus on guns killing fools. Because it's a simple system, it's easy to see where it all falls apart in execution. You gotta walk a really lovely line between Digestible, Entertaining and Thorough with mechanics.

ZeeToo
Feb 20, 2008

I'm a kitty!

Evil Mastermind posted:

Speaking as someone who does go into mechanical detail for the Torg stuff; do people not like that? I try not to get into the insane detail the actual books get into on the fluff, but I try to mitigate the crunch with some discussion.

Also I like AMP. v:shobon:v I don't think it's the greatest supers game ever but I like the mechanics and how it deliberately hits all the 90's comics cliches.

Torg is one of my favorites in this thread. Don't stop.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

While we're criticizing reviews, what do you all think of my Planescape write-ups? I enjoy writing it, but I sometimes feel that it's a little out of place. It'd be like if there was a mega-thread for bad FPSs and I reviewed Deus Ex.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


Never stop the Planescape reviews, even if they just turn into pictures of DiTerlizzi's art.

Serf
May 5, 2011


SirPhoebos posted:

While we're criticizing reviews, what do you all think of my Planescape write-ups? I enjoy writing it, but I sometimes feel that it's a little out of place. It'd be like if there was a mega-thread for bad FPSs and I reviewed Deus Ex.

Planescape is rad and I'm digging your writeup. Please don't change it. The art is gorgeous and you're doing a great job of summarizing the most interesting bits.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.

SirPhoebos posted:

While we're criticizing reviews, what do you all think of my Planescape write-ups? I enjoy writing it, but I sometimes feel that it's a little out of place. It'd be like if there was a mega-thread for bad FPSs and I reviewed Deus Ex.

Keep it goin'! I like seeing any kind of interesting books covered in this thread, whether good, bad, or just odd.

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."
Please post good reviews of good games. If it's all bad this turns into grogs.txt.

MollyMetroid
Jan 20, 2004

Trout Clan Daimyo
Nobody commented on my review like, next to at all.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
I gave up on my Ravenloft reviews because I thought I wasn't good enough to do it justice.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Kavak posted:

"Why do geopolitics and history look anything like our world if WWII was abruptly stopped by a superhero in 1943? The answer is flurp durp fart."

So this is a somewhat less ridiculous version of Space 1889 (aka "We can fly to Mars and poo poo, but everything on Earth went exactly as normal")? Alternate history is hard, man.

potatocubed posted:

The mood summary gives us three points to bear in mind: the burdens of being a new superhero, the question of what having powers does to the AMP, and the mystery of where the AMPs come from and what the future holds.

If that last point sounds like 90s metaplot, you'd be spot on. The game's not bad about giving out the whole history, but future developments? Better buy Years Two and Three to see what happens next!

*Checks the year*

I have to wonder how many of those 5-star-raters are more interested in metaplot nostalgia than the rest of the product...

potatocubed posted:

To be fair, this particular program was incepted in the 1920s, so we're looking at a time when the cutting edge of military technology was tanks, machine guns, and single-wing fighter planes. If you could make a guy who was literally bulletproof, that really would change the face of warfare -- especially if he could be mass-produced or, as it turns out, breed true.

I dunno. This came right after a World War that included a healthy dose of artillery fire and nerve gas. Bullets are not the most important threat here.

Young Freud posted:

And, even with drones and nukes, we're still trying to develop powered exoskeleton and cybernetic interfaces and selfaiming weapons with the end goal of achieving the same power equivalence in infantry combat that we have in air combat. In short, an American infantryman would be equivalent to a F22 fighting guerrilla prop planes.

Nifty guns and power armor also have the immense advantage of being able to be given to another soldier. It's incredibly awkward to imagine the bullet-proof, tank-throwing poo poo brickhouse of a super soldier on vacation, or in retirement. I think that was another point Yahtzee made.

BinaryDoubts
Jun 6, 2013

Looking at it now, it really is disgusting. The flesh is transparent. From the start, I had no idea if it would even make a clapping sound. So I diligently reproduced everything about human hands, the bones, joints, and muscles, and then made them slap each other pretty hard.

Rand Brittain posted:

Please post good reviews of good games. If it's all bad this turns into grogs.txt.

Yes, please. Balance of people being enthused about cool things and ripping apart bad things is what makes the thread entertaining (to me, at least). Stuff like the recent Pathfinder review, the Planescape review, the Spellbound Kingdoms review have been great.

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*

Doresh posted:

I dunno. This came right after a World War that included a healthy dose of artillery fire and nerve gas. Bullets are not the most important threat here.

Oh yeah. (My grasp of history isn't great.)

I think a bulletproof soldier would still have been a nice thing to have back then, though. I can just imagine General Melchett paying some boffin to design him someone who "won't die when I send him over the top, what?"

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Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

MollyMetroid posted:

Nobody commented on my review like, next to at all.

Yeah, I stopped reviewing Chuubo because nobody was reading it. Maybe somebody who has a bit more distance from it should give that one a try?

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