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I don't know, not having to hold back but being bound by rules that prevent suicidal charges is part of what makes foil so great for me. I'd prefer epee if it had right of way, but double touches are the worst. I'm definitely going to at least try rapier and/or smallsword if I get the chance, but how does the transition to actually having to be careful to not murder your opponent work out for long time sport fencers?
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Jun 6, 2016 16:48
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Nektu posted:But thats the interesting part? I dunno, I'm just at a loss how to get there, I guess. Maybe I should book some solo sessions with a coach or something. Siivola fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 18:14
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Siivola posted:Well, you're not wrong. It's not like it's impossible to fit them together, it's the whole point of being a good swordsman. On the one hand that can mean pure strength (that you beat through your opponent's defense), on the other hand it just means the stuff you said: "people insist that you should go for the head and the torso and really commit to attacks". If your attacks are too weak/have no conviction behind them or are simply off-target or hitting the strong points of his defense and thus have no chance of hitting your opponent, he can ignore them at leasure and counter you while you are busy doing those ineffective attempts to hit him. You do not threaten him, he does not need to react and can instead concentrate on acting and you lose. In the end the way to stay safe is to build a good offense and above all to keep initative. Its a blend of strength, speed, timing, distance, recognizing openings, closing/avoiding openings on your part and having/keeping/regaining initiative that is quite hard to learn. Thinking "ok, he did that, now I do that" is good for training and learning. During sparring you need to enforce "ok, I do that and now he has to do that" upon your opponent above all (which is obviously easier said then done). Nektu fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 19:10
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Well, the thing is, at our school we do Fiore, and our interpretation starts from the assumption that parrying is good because you can then riposte. Fiore's book is basically just parries, follow-ups and counter-techniques. Furthermore, the Flower of Battle doesn't really contain explicit tactical advice like what you describe. German style is entirely reasonable a way to fence but it contains this implicit expectation that your opponent is a reasonable person who likes breathing, instead of a morose drunken Finn who just wants to shank you and doesn't give a poo poo about your sword. Our book does not have that, so it's technically a stretch to assume your opponent is not suicidial. All this kinda does a number on people's willingness to attack.
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Jun 6, 2016 20:45
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If you rely on parries and ripostes, why should any opponent fear you? Similarly, in order for ripostes to truly work, you have to force the opponent to attack on your timing and you can only do that, if you put pressure on the opponent, but if the opponent doesn't fear you, that's unlikely to happen.
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Jun 6, 2016 21:02
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That doesn't really make sense to me unless you're talking about real life swordfights. In the latter case, either my opponent fearlessly attacks me and gets parry riposted, which is good, or he doesn't attack me at all, which is also good because nobody is getting stabbed. Also I can probably run faster than some dude carrying a sword.
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Jun 7, 2016 00:19
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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:That doesn't really make sense to me unless you're talking about real life swordfights. In the latter case, either my opponent fearlessly attacks me and gets parry riposted, which is good, or he doesn't attack me at all, which is also good because nobody is getting stabbed. Also I can probably run faster than some dude carrying a sword.
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Jun 7, 2016 02:03
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It works just as well when you are just playing for points. You don't want to give up a point and you want to score a point on the other guy. In kendo, we often refer to the 4 sicknesses; fear, doubt, surprise and confusion Fear of getting hit/losing a point Doubt of your own ability/technique. Surprise, when the opponent does the unexpected Confusion, when he constantly changes timing/distance, etc. All 4 leads to opportunities to score points. All of them can be overcome by believing that you have a strong attack. These are then also tied into the '3 ways of killing' Kill the sword; By manipulating the opponents sword to open up an opportunity) Kill the technique; Counter attack his attacks. Changing distance as he attacks, etc. Kill the spirit (mind); By appearing, calmer, stronger and more in control than him. Kendo is also technically difficult. It takes years to develop a decent basic attack and 90% of the practice is focused on attacking. Due to the restrictions in targets and the requirements for scoring a point, the opportunity for doing so is also very small compared to both sports fencing and 'historical' fencing. This means that when you do attack, you have a very small window for doing so and will need to do it without hesitation and fear. If you worry about the counter, you wont be able to attack as fluidly and freely as you would otherwise be able to. Most people who have competed in one way or the other will know this. Once you have an opponent in front of you, with a crowd and judges, everything becomes much more difficult. Doesn't matter if it's tennis or martial arts; Techniques that you can carry out freely in practice, suddenly become very hard to pull off and you find yourself, depending on your mental state, either flailing around or falling back on the few techniques that you can rely on.
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Jun 7, 2016 04:22
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Yeah, that all makes sense. I guess we just don't drill attacking enough?
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Jun 7, 2016 07:21
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Siivola posted:Yeah, that all makes sense. I guess we just don't drill attacking enough? Possibly, I feel that it's also important to have a broad enough repertoire that you can confidently attack, defend or counter in a few different ways each. All that kendo stuff sounds like it applies really well to foil as well. My understanding of the priority rules is hazy, but it's similar stuff in that you have to threaten, then attack target in one fluid motion without getting stop-hit or parried successfully, right? I don't get the rules around what happens during much of the rest of a bout, but thinking in terms of foil priority made a lot of sense to me looking at that compilation video posted earlier. Prority and target does make foil kinda interesting, and it definitely makes people react differently when they know they have to deal with right of way. From a duelling standpoint, priority makes sense to me in that if you're being threatened with a real weapon, it's safer to remove the threat first instead of taking the riskier/"suicidal" option of counterattacking. Things just get blurry when people start pushing the boundaries with poo poo like fast beat parries, flicks, etc. While it's not the only way to win, this stuff that's more removed from "real swordfighting" does need to be a tool in your toolbox if you want to compete at higher levels. However - that's just the flashy poo poo, the other stuff should be the bedrock of your technique, there's no substitute for good distance, a confident attack and solid parries. I like epee a lot for much the same sort of reasons, actually: to hit I really need to think about point control, pay more attention to what my opponent's doing (can't assume they'll always try to parry an attack), and really parry properly. I lost a bunch of points last week before I realised I was beat-parrying with the mid of my blade without really moving my hand/forte to make drat sure they couldn't push through and hit my shoulder - hell, I was so shoddy that I got hit on foil target a few of those times - and I know that when I fix this kind of crap it'll be really good for my foil and sabre as well.
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Jun 7, 2016 11:15
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ImplicitAssembler posted:If you rely on parries and ripostes, why should any opponent fear you? what the gently caress is this poo poo
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Jun 7, 2016 11:33
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At the end of the day playing with swords is fun, and trying it with different sets of rules is also fun, and surprisingly helpful. I think everyone should dabble in a bit of everything they can because why not? My time with German longsword really upped my epee game, oddly enough, and one of the best guys on our college team had a kendo background. Has there ever been an attempt to do an MMA kind of thing with different styles and weapons fighting each other? Working out rules and safety would be a nightmare, but it could be fun to watch.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:14
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curious lump posted:what the gently caress is this poo poo One of the manuals my group works from says that most of your kills will be from the riposte, so I think there's almost certainly something to the riposte being the most important part of the system. Any fool can block true play without much difficulty. On the other hand, when I first started, I was very rarely attacking, so I was slowly picked apart by more and more complex feints, since I they didn't need to think about defending themselves, except on their terms. ScratchAndSniff posted:At the end of the day playing with swords is fun, and trying it with different sets of rules is also fun, and surprisingly helpful. I think everyone should dabble in a bit of everything they can because why not? I went to a general meetup a couple of weeks ago and fought a fair few different weapons and styles. I fought sidesword and other styles of backsword with my own. Mixed success, because the skill levels of everyone else really varied. We weren't going off points though, just battering each other until something moderately dangerous happened and we realised that it was time for a break. Like I got a cut on my neck and someone else nearly got castrated by a careless thrust.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:33
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curious lump posted:what the gently caress is this poo poo Speaking from a sport foil perspective, if I notice someone's only looking for the riposte, then immediately I know that: 1) I have more power to control the distance since I'm not worried about being countered or attack-in-prepped, and 2) I'm looking for compound attacks. Not that it means it's going to be easy, but being able to ignore multiple variables significantly reduces the complexity for me the attacker. Throwing in just an occasional attack or counter, even if not successful, makes me think a lot carefully about #1. That said, there's a huge difference between being defensive and being passive. You can fight over distance and push me around without ever attacking. Some people have parries that are Just That Good, but I'd say (at least among peers) more often than not successful parrying is about distance rather than blade skill. "Fear" might be too strong a word, but the sentiment is valid.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:48
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dupersaurus posted:Speaking from a sport foil perspective, if I notice someone's only looking for the riposte, then immediately I know that: 1) I have more power to control the distance since I'm not worried about being countered or attack-in-prepped, and 2) I'm looking for compound attacks. Not that it means it's going to be easy, but being able to ignore multiple variables significantly reduces the complexity for me the attacker. Throwing in just an occasional attack or counter, even if not successful, makes me think a lot carefully about #1. It's certainly more about distance than anything else, but I'm going to 'fear' someone with a strong parry and riposte more than someone with strong blade control or lunges, because when you attack into someone, regardless of whether or not you are controlling distance or setting up for a second attack, you are exposing yourself dangerously by leaving your position of strength and losing your leverage and measure to bring yourself into an enemy. The second someone can control your incoming blade and counter attack, you are most likely hosed without recovering extremely quickly. (which you won't if you were trying to bring your blade into a second attack)
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Jun 7, 2016 22:52
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Siivola posted:German style is entirely reasonable a way to fence but it contains this implicit expectation that your opponent is a reasonable person who likes breathing, instead of a morose drunken Finn who just wants to shank you and doesn't give a poo poo about your sword. At some point the historical usage of swords would have had to rely on their man-stopping power. There is no magical way of being inside the weaponrange of your opponent and staying ahead forever. But in the end you just have to stay ahead long enough. That drunken moron would not have had the choice of ignoring your hits, because they would have damaged his body which would have stopped to function properly (making it harder for him to hit you further). The particulars of that however are basically impossible to reproduce or predict nowadays. Discussion aka "I hit you that would TOTALLY have killed you and that counter of yours would not have happened" are completely useless because it apparently is surprisingly hard to predict the exact effect that a hit with a bladed weapon would have had (I mean, we are talking about fencing here - if a deadly wound allows one participant to stay active even for only a few seconds more there is still a lot of time for him to hit back). Siivola posted:Well, the thing is, at our school we do Fiore, and our interpretation starts from the assumption that parrying is good because you can then riposte. Fiore's book is basically just parries, follow-ups and counter-techniques. Furthermore, the Flower of Battle doesn't really contain explicit tactical advice like what you describe IM_DA_DECIDER posted:That doesn't really make sense to me unless you're talking about real life swordfights. In the latter case, either my opponent fearlessly attacks me and gets parry riposted, which is good, or he doesn't attack me at all, which is also good because nobody is getting stabbed. Also I can probably run faster than some dude carrying a sword. Nektu fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 23:02
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curious lump posted:It's certainly more about distance than anything else, but I'm going to 'fear' someone with a strong parry and riposte more than someone with strong blade control or lunges, because when you attack into someone, regardless of whether or not you are controlling distance or setting up for a second attack, you are exposing yourself dangerously by leaving your position of strength and losing your leverage and measure to bring yourself into an enemy. The second someone can control your incoming blade and counter attack, you are most likely hosed without recovering extremely quickly. (which you won't if you were trying to bring your blade into a second attack) If you're controlling distance, you're not exposing yourself because you, by definition, have the distance and the timing because you're the one choosing to initiate the action. You control both. Can you still be parried? Of course, but that's your mistake for attacking when you did. Set up your attack better. And since your opponent is focusing so much on the parry, you should be able to set it up well.
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Jun 8, 2016 02:12
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Went to a HEMA tournament this weekend which used a one hit kill format. Murder a dude, you win and he loses, double kill and you both lose. Swiss pool format with people getting cut after a certain number of losses. I liked it a lot, all you had to worry about was "kill" and "don't die", nobody had to alter their game based on score or time. It also kept bouts very short, so even a scrub tier fencer like me got to fence a ton of different people. Probably pretty stressful for the top guys who could potentially lose matches to a single hit from a lucky n00b, but there were so many total matches that the cream still rose to the top.
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Jun 8, 2016 02:52
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Ravenfood posted:This is definitely the epee speaking, but someone with a good parry/riposte, or someone basing their tactics around that, is begging for either snipes at the wrist, a disengage, or a counter-parry. If I don't have to worry about them attacking me while I'm setting up, so much the better. There's a fencer in the circuit here who has pretty decent parries but no attack whatsoever. He gives some people trouble, sure, but he's piss easy to throw a ton of attacks/feints out and then punish when he overcommits to a parry. I'm not sure why everyone is ignoring counter-parries, disengages, or coupes here. And yes, the blade dynamics of epee are very different from a longsword/historical fencing weapon, but if you're unable to set up a counter-parry, you're over-lunging in my opinion. Most of my points in epee are scored on the attack: not necessarily the initial lunge, but on a planned counter-parry, disengage, or a by baiting out their attack. A parry is an automatic reaction to a tell that you give off when you attack, either by poor technique or because you were at a distance where the brain has enough time to see, process, and respond to the attack. There is no such thing as "making a mistake for attacking when you did." And of course you can counter parry, but an opponent can also take control of your weapon, which negates attempts of counter parrying because you cannot move your blade without first disengaging it (either by moving the attack blade to an outside line as in a parry one, or by moving back and removing your blade from their's.)
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Jun 8, 2016 03:38
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Hazzard posted:
That's pretty cool, but I'm thinking a step beyond that with established rules and a league. Fencing people is fun, but it's a terrible spectator sport. Simplifying the rules and letting different styles go at it could actually be fun to see... Maybe? Balancing safety with "realistic" weapons would be the hard part, though. castration is never fun.
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Jun 8, 2016 12:24
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I don't think fencing (of any kind) is a terrible spectator sport because of the rules, but because it's too fast and dependent on tiny nuances in what the fencers are doing. These are hard to judge when you're not actually in the bout yourself, unless you slow it down and provide a lot of visual aids for spectators, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leOP7rWwBpw Simplified rules results in this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWiaRhQDZFE
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Jun 8, 2016 17:16
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Battle of the Nations -style battles are actually even worse spectator sports than sport fencing, because telling scoring blows apart from poor ones (yeah there's actually a points system in 1v1 fights) is loving impossible from a tiny YouTube video and the commentary is amateurish at best.  At least sport fencing has slow-motion replays and decent commentary. Also for some reason it's weird as heck to see Japan has a scene for that sort of thing. I mean I knew they had a team in BotN a year or two ago, but still. They got nerds for everything. Siivola fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jun 8, 2016 |
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Jun 8, 2016 17:23
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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:I don't think fencing (of any kind) is a terrible spectator sport because of the rules, but because it's too fast and dependent on tiny nuances in what the fencers are doing. These are hard to judge when you're not actually in the bout yourself, unless you slow it down and provide a lot of visual aids for spectators, like this: While I admit that was painful to watch, tweaking the rules and toning down the period equipment could make it better. Old school MMA matches looked dumb too. Plus, just look at this thread. Different styles have a lot of rivalry. The demand is there. I agree that the speed/tiny nuances being a big factor, but try explaining priority to a non-fencer and watch their eyes glaze over. Watching 2 guys hit each other at essentially the same time 5 or 15 times in a row using identical techniques and then declaring a winner isn't fun.
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Jun 8, 2016 17:56
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To clarify: I'm talking spectator only. What got me on this was seeing all the talk about the "new" professional fencing league, which is clearly doomed to fail.
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Jun 8, 2016 18:01
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ScratchAndSniff posted:While I admit that was painful to watch, tweaking the rules and toning down the period equipment could make it better. Old school MMA matches looked dumb too. Plus, just look at this thread. Different styles have a lot of rivalry. The demand is there. I don't think priority is any more confusing than the rules of football, baseball and what have you. And it's there to avoid exactly that kind of bout you're talking about.
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Jun 8, 2016 18:36
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To go on a tangent, would sabre be more or less incomprehensible to watch without priority?
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Jun 8, 2016 18:42
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Siivola posted:To go on a tangent, would sabre be more or less incomprehensible to watch without priority? It's easy to comprehend infinite double touches off the line
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Jun 8, 2016 18:45
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ScratchAndSniff posted:To clarify: I'm talking spectator only. What got me on this was seeing all the talk about the "new" professional fencing league, which is clearly doomed to fail. Eh, I don't believe it the rules that make fencing a less interesting spectator sport. I think it has more to do with lack of exposure among the public. Even then, lots of people can still enjoy watching fencing with little exposure, especially at the top level. Goons may not be the best barometer for this, but I did do the fencing thread for the London games and was pleasantly surprised by the number of people engaged in the event. Also, the FIE has some really good commentators for their events, which helps a lot. And yes, the professional fencing league is a ridiculous beast, I love how they devote a section to their website noting how this league has no tie to that "other" league. Why the gently caress is fencing so petty? Siivola posted:To go on a tangent, would sabre be more or less incomprehensible to watch without priority? This isn't your question, but stripping right of way from sabre strips away its heart. Without it, I would hang up my lame, even higher than it is already hung. I'm fat and busy.
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Jun 8, 2016 19:13
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BirdOfPlay posted:And yes, the professional fencing league is a ridiculous beast, I love how they devote a section to their website noting how this league has no tie to that "other" league. Why the gently caress is fencing so petty? From what I understand, the last professional league attempt failed in a glorious flame of corruption and fiscal catastrophe. Distancing from it isn't being petty, it's trying to not be associated with a still-flaming pit of rotting poo poo.
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Jun 8, 2016 19:15
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Siivola posted:Battle of the Nations -style battles are actually even worse spectator sports than sport fencing, because telling scoring blows apart from poor ones (yeah there's actually a points system in 1v1 fights) is loving impossible from a tiny YouTube video and the commentary is amateurish at best. Except plenty of people watching BotN type stuff don't give a poo poo about points anyway. ufcfanjustbleed.gif
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Jun 8, 2016 19:17
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IM_DA_DECIDER posted:
The other problem is that there's no variance or any real athleticism on display. Just bash, bash, bash.
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Jun 8, 2016 19:27
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That video comes off to my eyes as much more WWE than FIE. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I'd watch the hell out of some kind of glorious trainwreck of pro wresling and dark souls, at least for the novelty factor. The other analogy I use for priority - no idea how well received it is, though - is that it's like the ball in tennis. If you don't have the ball, you can't score points. And if the ball's been hit towards you, you hit it back at your opponent rather than taking another ball out of your pocket and hitting that at them. Sabre without priority would be interesting, but surely you'd have to adjust the timing more towards epee to make it actually palatable and not just infinite double hits. I'm almost finished hacking together a (very) basic arduino scoring box, there's nothing stopping me from tinkering with the timings here and there to try this kind of silly stuff out... [edit]poo poo, I was confusing the PFL for the AFL. Seems kind of intriguing as to whether it'll get off the ground as a commercial spectator sport kind of thing. I have no beef with them personally but find it amusing that their logo seems to be two sabreurs (res is low but I think I can just see the bit of the guard that connects to the pommel) about to either faceplant or get carded for crossing. Yeah, I don't what what it is about fencing that attracts petty politics games poo poo. I try to keep as far away from it as I can, but I've been told that even though fencing in new zealand is comparatively tiny and scrub-tier compared to every other country, there's still a disproportionate amount of squabbling and power games going on from time to time. Sometimes I feel glad I'm bad enough to not ever need to worry about rankings, coaches moving to different clubs, or who gets funding to go to overseas tourneys and so on. Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 11:59
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Hey, HEMA guys. Anyone have know anything about modding AP jackets? The collar is way too wide for me and doesn't play nice with my mask, so I'm seriously considering just cutting it off because I'll be wearing a gorget anyways. Way I see it, I'll lose a tiny bit of padding and the blade catcher, but in exchange my mask's bib will stop riding up. So basically a wash safety-wise. Good or a terrible idea?
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Jun 9, 2016 20:14
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Well poo poo. A knee injury is forcing me to fence a lot slower and more defensively than normal, and I'm actually doing a little better because of it. Also, quinte is surprisingly useful versus tall people who like attacking with very high hand positions, and as a bonus it scares the poo poo out of foilists who don't see it very often. Siivola, I don't know jack about hema stuff but I'd avoid cutting protective gear up, if possible. Things might start fraying or something else bad and unexpected. Can you do something like sew a little bit of Velcro on to keep your bib in the right place? Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 04:03
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Yeah I think that's a fairly well documented experience. I'm healing off a back problem and it's forced me to face my distance demons and encouraged small footwork. Heard a similar story about fencing extra good in a tournament with a bum ankle.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:33
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pictures of swordHEY GAL posted:
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Jun 22, 2016 22:32
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Hmm. So maybe now's a good time to order stuff from Leon Paul?
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Jun 24, 2016 13:35
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And from Marco Danelli and The HEMA Shop.  I might actually crack and buy Keith Farrell's Scottish Broadsword and British Singlestick from Corsair's Wares out in Scotland. I've been reading into the period a bit and basket-hilted swords sound kinda nice. Not needing bulky gloves sounds like bliss. Siivola fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Jun 24, 2016 |
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Jun 24, 2016 13:44
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So I finally got around taking photos of my new sword, cut/thrust blade of the type ordered by Sweden in bulk during the 30 Years War from the Dutch. The handle:  Tonic water bottle for size reference : 
Ataxerxes fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 19:12
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vital stats? 
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Jul 7, 2016 19:37
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