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It's killing me that so many people think summoning in this game is bad, as that is absolutely NOT the case, especially if you are doing a one character run. Granted, low level summoning spells are generally garbage. At best, they'll take a hit for you, but odds are good that any real fight will have enemy casters, and those casters will AOE your whole group of nephilim or snakes or whatever in a single fireball, and probably hit you too. High level summoning and capture soul/simulacrum can be gamebreaking, and I remember beating a very endgame scenario Tower of Magi demon invasion with repeated casts of high level summoning magic Major Summoning (Which can summon basilisks, which can insta-kill Mung Demons!) and staying out of the line of sight. Since Capture Soul can catch friendly Wizards (and they can cast level 7 magic, including more high level summons), you can basically create an entire army turn 1 and sit safely in the backline. Such tactics aren't necessary for the usual group of bandits, but any big encounter can benefit from it, and it becomes almost a must in a solo run where both magic points and health are precious. Unrelated, but I was always wondering why the Empire even bothered with creating Exile at all since they still have capital punishment anyway. The idea that Exile may have originally been a way to throw unwanted mages and criminals at an unknown and dangerous landscape so that the Empire wouldn't have to spend it's own troops sounds pretty well in line with their usual Machiavellian thinking.
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Jun 8, 2016 01:36
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Random_Username posted:Such tactics aren't necessary for the usual group of bandits, but any big encounter can benefit from it, and it becomes almost a must in a solo run where both magic points and health are precious. I've cleared Exile 3 multiple times with solo characters without casting summoning spells once, though I did freely stoop to other levels of cheese (e.g. abusing the free INT points in the Tower of the Magi, which we discussed earlier). Judicious use of line-of-sight, combined with buffs and debuffs, can make a single character preposterously strong. Ring of Speed + Boots of Speed + casting Avatar/Slow Group/Curse All means getting ten attacks (20 blows with dual-wielding) for every one turn your enemies get, while also rendering you literally invulnerable (one of Avatar's effects) and your enemies horribly vulnerable to physical damage. Stand in an antimagic cloud and they can't even touch you with spells/breath attacks. This setup is very expensive SP-wise, of course, but Haste+Bless+Curse All accomplishes most of what it does for much less of an investment. Really the main thing is to just arrange things so you're only seeing one or two enemies per turn. A PC is usually a match for any one monsters in the game; it's when you get ganged up on that you have problems. I'm not saying you're wrong in general, mind you. High-level summoning spells can be a lot of fun and a significant boon if you don't have god-tier characters. There's just usually a more efficient use of your spellpoints.
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Jun 8, 2016 01:56
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Even using low level summons for meat shields can be fairly useful against the last plagues in larger fights. Drop a wall of blades or two on their front line and toss a bunch of generic summons in front of that, toss in a couple demons on the back row with your mages and they'll spend the rest of the fight helping/creating more meat shields while the enemy AI walks back and forth through the blades and attacks the trash mobs instead of your front line that's killing them.
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Jun 8, 2016 02:15
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I've cleared Exile 3 multiple times with solo characters without casting summoning spells once, though I did freely stoop to other levels of cheese (e.g. abusing the free INT points in the Tower of the Magi, which we discussed earlier). Judicious use of line-of-sight, combined with buffs and debuffs, can make a single character preposterously strong. Ring of Speed + Boots of Speed + casting Avatar/Slow Group/Curse All means getting ten attacks (20 blows with dual-wielding) for every one turn your enemies get, while also rendering you literally invulnerable (one of Avatar's effects) and your enemies horribly vulnerable to physical damage. Stand in an antimagic cloud and they can't even touch you with spells/breath attacks. This setup is very expensive SP-wise, of course, but Haste+Bless+Curse All accomplishes most of what it does for much less of an investment. Really the main thing is to just arrange things so you're only seeing one or two enemies per turn. A PC is usually a match for any one monsters in the game; it's when you get ganged up on that you have problems. Heh, I used pretty much the same sort of line of sight shenanigans in my run, too. I've run a lot enemies in circles by repeatedly ducking around corners . Not really sure what you do in big fights in open fields, though? There aren't a ton of those kind of situations, but when they happen, that's when I usually start spamming summons, if only to get some breathing room before the entire enemy army converges on me. Don't get me wrong, haste and bless Major Blessing, preferably followed by slow is the "proper" intro to most fights, I just like having some extra meat shields/damage sources up to serve as buffer. GodFish posted:Even using low level summons for meat shields can be fairly useful against the last plagues in larger fights. Drop a wall of blades or two on their front line and toss a bunch of generic summons in front of that, toss in a couple demons on the back row with your mages and they'll spend the rest of the fight helping/creating more meat shields while the enemy AI walks back and forth through the blades and attacks the trash mobs instead of your front line that's killing them.
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Jun 8, 2016 03:30
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Random_Username posted:Not really sure what you do in big fights in open fields, though? There aren't a ton of those kind of situations, but when they happen, that's when I usually start spamming summons, if only to get some breathing room before the entire enemy army converges on me. Don't get me wrong, haste and bless Major Blessing, preferably followed by slow is the "proper" intro to most fights, I just like having some extra meat shields/damage sources up to serve as buffer. Fortunately, there aren't any required fights in big open areas against spellcasters that I can remember, at least not until you can get Antimagic Cloud. There are plenty of big overworld fights before that point, but you can generally manipulate those to take place either in hills or forests, both of which have plenty of LOS blockers (especially with the bad pathing AI). As for the optional fights...either skip 'em or use those invulnerability potions. I suppose casting Web is also an option for making your own LOS blocking, but I never experimented with it much myself. The really key thing to realize when playing a singleton party is that you become almost entirely immune to melee after being blessed once by a skilled caster (and you should be a skilled caster). After that, the only threatening enemies are spellcasters and enemies with natural ranged magic attacks (like breath weapons or the Ruby Skeletons' heat ray), and they can't use those if they can't see you.
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Jun 8, 2016 04:01
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Listen, I know you guys love the spell, and I quite like it too, but after much experimenting I've found something that may get me hanged as a heretic. Major Blessing isn't the be-all, end-all that people make it out to be. Now don't get me wrong - for what it does, its low cost is insane. Blessing AND Major Haste rolled up into one (with a bit of extra poison added)? Yes please! But there's two big differences between Major Blessing vs what it's composed of (Bless Party, Major Haste). The first is that Bless Party/Major Haste both improve on the blessing/haste status that already exists on the characters, while Major Blessing just sets it to a prefined amount. In some ways, this means that Major Blessing is more useful when trying to un-curse or un-slow your party if you've been gang-banged by debuffs. But the second difference is that Major Blessing's benefits never seem to improve, at least in Exile III. Throughout levels 20-50, whenever my spellcasters used Major Blessing, it would always only increase by 4 tiers worth of blessing (or a +20% to hit, +4 to damage bonus) with a hasting that gives the party triple movement for a couple of rounds before dropping to double. Now don't get me wrong, this is still very very good - in fact, I think the haste effect is still better than Major Haste's, which seems to only give triple movement for 1 round. But Bless Party can increase the party's blessing up to I think 10 tiers, which is insanely good. Basically, what I'm trying to say is - Major Blessing is great, but more as a starting buff. If you REALLY want the benefits of the bless status, use Bless Party as well.
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Jun 8, 2016 16:54
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LuffyVeggies posted:Major Blessing isn't the be-all, end-all that people make it out to be. And you're completely correct. However, you're looking at only one-half of the equation. Don't forget I have enough casters in my party to dump Bless Party/Major Blessing and Slow Group/Curse All on the same turn.
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Jun 8, 2016 17:46
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I'm less saying that summoning is mechanically ineffective and more saying that almost every use of summoning we have seen has been: A) demons, which us a terrible idea; or B) hordes of monsters which is also terrible. demon summoning seems like it should be illegal for the same reason making your own mustard gas is.
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Jun 9, 2016 13:29
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I'm less saying that summoning is mechanically ineffective and more saying that almost every use of summoning we have seen has been: In the Empire all magic requires a license, demon-summoning included. In Exile the state was pretty much set up by a bunch of mages, so the laws are arranged to let them do what they want.
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Jun 9, 2016 13:57
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The real concern with higher level summons is any creatures that cast spells do not take friendly fire into account. So you can get Firestormed/Shockstormed into oblivion by your own dudes. I'm really, really late to the Anama chat, so I'll try to keep this short. It may seem like their dialogue is clumsy, and it kinda is since the engine and folks' non-quest short attention spans are not suited to long intricate dialogs, but the thing is people really do argue like that regularly. Especially in contexts where either the person is outright not at all interested in a discussion or has a short chance to grab attention of a handful of undecided viewers. Internet arguments (before devolving into "you're Neo-Hitler" level namecalling anyways) are an obvious example but you'll see it on news shows and in editorials too. People will bring up something that is undeniably tragic, demand their opponent respond, hoping they can either smugly act as if a "yes it is horrible" answer proves their position correct and if the person tries anything else immediately interrupt and paint them as a horrid person. This tactic also has the side benefit of keeping responsibility for making a statement on the person asked, so the asker doesn't have to actually put forward a position to fight in the first drat place. It's a fairly common tactic all around but especially in all sorts of movements that can be summed up with "I don't like (thing), it's bad, let's ban it." And people do fall for it. Hell, it's pretty much a staple of the Daily Show gag interviews. Ask something that's a fairly simple moral question, cut to them pausing for a second or two from somewhere else in the interview, let audience decide they're lovely people, rake in advertisement profits. edit: oh poo poo I just remembered, Katie loving Couric has been slammed in the last week or two for just this kind of setup complete with deceptive editing. So yay recent real world example! Since Vogel was clearly on the internet in the 90s (the anvil thing with X is apparently some old proto-forum in-joke) it's not unlikely that he was familiar with the kind of bumper-sticker level of conversation that the Anama give. Since I was a kid in the 90s and mostly interested in goofing off and being a kid than following the news I can't say it was reflective of how people argued then but it sure as hell is now. Parts Kit fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 01:27
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I had been assuming that the anvil thing was just X trying to be Wile E. Coyote.
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Jun 11, 2016 09:42
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Whybird posted:I had been assuming that the anvil thing was just X trying to be Wile E. Coyote. It's a Looney Toons reference - the expanded dialogues of the remakes (especially A6 where he can complete the spell if you do a quest chain) make it clear that it's a reference to the cartoon. Never heard anything about the forum in-joke ... but it's worth noting that it dates all the way back to E1, his first game, so it seems kinda iffy to me since nobody was discussing his stuff before he'd made any games. I'd love to see some info about it though if it was a forum joke as well though.
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Jun 11, 2016 15:04
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MagusofStars posted:Never heard anything about the forum in-joke ... but it's worth noting that it dates all the way back to E1, his first game, so it seems kinda iffy to me since nobody was discussing his stuff before he'd made any games. I'd love to see some info about it though if it was a forum joke as well though. Presumably what was meant is that he had a group of online friends and they liked to joke about dropping anvils on people, so he worked it into the game. Online forums have been around in various forms for many decades now -- there's BBS systems as probably the earliest incarnation, then Usenet was huge for quite some time.
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Jun 11, 2016 16:01
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Presumably what was meant is that he had a group of online friends and they liked to joke about dropping anvils on people, so he worked it into the game. Online forums have been around in various forms for many decades now -- there's BBS systems as probably the earliest incarnation, then Usenet was huge for quite some time.
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Jun 12, 2016 03:54
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Your Exile 2 LP got me to replay Crystal Souls in its third iteration, and this thread has gotten me to boot up Avernum 3, too. I've always been fond of the Valorim and Upper Exile/Avernum settings. I'm really looking forward to the A3 remake. I actually feel a little dopey for saying that because it outs me as a fanboy. The dialog is sometimes literally the same across all three iterations of these games. Dmar fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 04:32
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Dmar posted:I actually feel a little dopey for saying that because it outs me as a fanboy. The dialog is sometimes literally the same across all three iterations of these games. Don't be. A lot of the underlying mechanics and fluff are the same across all the re(re)makes - it's the graphical engines that get the overhaul because it's easier than re-writing a couple million words or thereabouts.
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Jun 12, 2016 04:41
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berryjon posted:Don't be. A lot of the underlying mechanics and fluff are the same across all the re(re)makes - it's the graphical engines that get the overhaul because it's easier than re-writing a couple million words or thereabouts. Even so, he gets my money every time 
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Jun 12, 2016 04:45
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Parts Kit posted:Yes, I forget exactly where I read it, probably on the Avernum forums, but it's at least in part a reference to some ancient BBS joke. So it's actually like a double reference - to a BBS and Looney Toons. Nicely done. 
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Jun 12, 2016 16:59
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Also given the similarity between all iterations of these games, these LPs actually constitute probably some of the most comprehensive walkthroughs (with a good narrative!) to ever have been constructed about these games. Which is kinda remarkable too since almost every Exile/Avernum game has a couple of excellent walkthroughs, some with dedicated websites.
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Jun 12, 2016 17:37
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Dmar posted:Even so, he gets my money every time
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Jun 12, 2016 20:48
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Update 018 – Bavner and the Friendly, Happy Spiders “If this map is correct, then we have nearly completed a full circle of the island.” “Wow! So, what does that mean?” “It means that we've been going in circles.” “Not quite. More like an oval, assuming you don't count the tail of the island that leads to Southpoint.” “Islands can have tails? Why did no one ever tell me?!?!” “I don't know if he's joking or not...” “I will assume he is.” “Come on then, maybe we can get some information here.” “I will take my leave then. I will endeavour to wait for the rest of you here.” “Don't get lost!” “This is a small town. How could she?” “There are more ways to be lost than in direction.” “And all who wander” “are not necessarily lost.” “Last one.”  “Hello, Mother.” You meet a woman wearing a robe and rings of the Anama Church. She has the air of not suffering fools gladly, and the authority of a born leader. "I am Mother Loomis. Welcome to Bavner." “I am Delilah, petitioner.” "I am the guardian of Bavner. A trying job, I am sure you realize, but the faith gives me strength." “Surely your guardianship is sufficient to help with the spirits of your people!” She rolls her eyes. "One trial after another! As if the roaches weren't enough, I have to deal with Judith, and with Seela's ravings." “I do not know this Judith. At least, I don't think I do.” She frowns. "A carpetbagger! She's a healer who travels from town to town, healing for a hefty price! She's from some religion that values making money or amassing power or some such rot. I, as you can probably tell, despise her. If, for some odd reason, you actually want to meet her, she comes through occasionally." "As if everything else wasn't enough, Seela says there are spiders in the woods who come and speak with her. She's around town somewhere if you want to ask her about it." “I think not. Greed is a poison on the souls of good people. The faith I seek to share has no room for such things.” "The Anama teaches self-reliance above all things. We should rely on our own strength, not the energy from realms we do not understand, and from the summoning of bizarre creatures. I have thought much on my beliefs. Would you like me to share them with you?" “Of course! The magic of the mages, unlike the priestly spells, come from without, not withing, and the only things worth doing are those achieved with your own hands, toward your own joy!”  And that's that. We've done everything we need to join the Anama Church. I'll save going through that for after we've purged the Filth Factory. “Talking Spiders... but where is this Seela person?” “aaaaaaa...............................” “And why do I hear Art screaming in fear at the mention of spiders? Is she an arachnophobe? That's an odd failing.” “Hey! What are you doing back here in the trash?” “Oh, hello. Just hiding out. My name is Judith. I met you and your people back in Shayder.” “Really? Well, it's nice to meet you again!” Judith is the same NPC as we would find in Shayder on other days. However, her in Bavner, she likes to hide out in the lower-right corner of the map. With the garbage?  “Huh. Freerange chicken.” “You know, why aren't people putting up walls, or barricades to deal with the Roaches? It's not like the Slimes that can spit acid. “ “Another series of lodgings for the displaced. But where are the ruined villages that they came from? Why have we seen no such things on our travels?” “Curious. This house is different from the others.” “... what ....” “How did they get in? Why hasn't this building been burnt down yet?”  “Never mind, looks like I'll get to do it for them.”   I didn't close the door behind me, so when I went to rob the dresser of some coins, someone in town saw me do so – you see the notation “Your crime was seen!” in the log window? That means the town has gone hostile. So I simply reload and ignore this building. Funny thing though – I couldn't spot who had seen me, so unless it was the Roaches who sounded the alarm, I'm at a loss. But that's alright, it wasn't a lot anyway. “On second though, I'm no taffer. I shall leave this be.” “Ah, this is where the roaches died. Nice to see they came in along the road.” “Hrm...” “Yeah, I think we can do that. Hello there!” A stolid, massive man is slouched behind the counter. He looks rather dull, but is surrounded by books on a wide variety of topics. "I am Voorn." “I am Art.” "I am a teacher." “I am an adventurer, not a teacher.” "I train adventurers, what adventurers come here anymore. I am schooled in all the adventuring skills from Alchemy to Priest Spells, and everything in between. If you want training, say so, and we'll go out back." Hold on, the only thing between Alchemy and Priest Spells is Mage Lore.... I'm really glad he's speaking hyperbole here. And if he was going alphabetically, it would have been Alchemy to Thrown Missiles. Anyway, let's do some training! Gets more SP, and 5 more points in Edged Weapons. She's leaning heavily on the overpowered Alien Blades, and it won't be until the end game when the scale of the enemies catch up to the scale of her weapons. 10 points there is good enough, so for the next few levels, I will be saving for Priest Spells and SP gains. More SP, more Intelligence. I'm going to have to invest in Priest Spells for her soon – for reasons. She may wind up drinking that Skill Potion Matthias is lugging around for that purpose. I did not train Sass at this point, once again, for ~reasons~. 15 total points in Mage Lore should cover everything I need for a while – there are a couple things I've missed because I didn't have enough, so I plan to catch them later. Forgot to grab a 'before' shot, but Bronwyn got 4 points of Edged Weapons, and one more in Dexterity. I should invest in Luck and Assassination soonish. So few Skill Points, so many Skills.... Another 'I forgot the before' picture, Ni'aurrl got 4 Spell Points, and 2 points in Intelligence before I ran out of gold. “Oh! There you are!” You meet a young Anama priestess, more than happy to take a break from looking over the fields and picking weeds. “My name is Delilah, and I've been looking for you.” "I'm Seela." “Curious. Why is a priestess like yourself weeding while in town?” "I look after things. I watch the crops, patrol the woods, that sort of thing. And let me tell you, I see some strange things." “The crops? Surely there are farmers for that!” "More interesting work that you could possibly imagine," she says wryly. “Perhaps. Now, I shall be honest. My group has been tasked with the investigation and eradication of the cockroach plague by the Mayor of Shayder. We have made several advances in our investigation and now we turn to you as we have been informed that you have had strange experiences in the woods.” "There are intelligent spiders in the woods! And what's more, they're friendly! They come and talk to me, and I give them little bugs in return. They're kind of sweet!" “aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa” “What was that?” “Just the screams of the damned. You get used to it after a while. Tell me more about these spiders. We haven't been receiving any complaints about them, so we're hoping they are predators to the Roaches.” "I know what you're thinking, but I tell you there are intelligent spiders in the forest. They say they have a big lair somewhere, but haven't told me where. If you went and were nice to them, I'm sure they'd talk to you too." “Thank you! You were most helpful.” “You're welcome.” “No, we are not.” “We are not finding them.” “See, we can deal with these things on our own.” “We don't need to talk to them.”  “This is a waste of our time. No Spiders!” “There is no reason to go looking for them! At all! Ever!” “See? They weren't there. We can just pass them on by.”  “Completely irrelevant to our job.” “There is no need to head south and back into the Webwood to find them.” “No.”  “No. Nope. Never.”     A giant spider runs up and kisses you in the knee. Then it backs away shyly.  “Oh, aren't you the most adorable little arachnid! What's your name?”  "I'm Spider," it says, pleased you asked. “Hello Spider! What are you doing here?” "I'm looking for a mate!" it says exuberantly. “Really? A mate?” It shies away, and if it could, you think it would be blushing. "It's good to make baby spiders, and you're cute!" “Oh, I'm not that cute. I only have two eyes!” "Yeah! You're cute and tall! I like you!" You sit down and patiently explain that you would make very poor parents for baby spiders. It understands and walks away sadly. “I am going back to Exile.” “Why?” “So I can go grab Peregrine and Kai-Lyss.” “You know Kai-Lyss? Cool!” “... Why?” “And then I'm going to bring the two of them back up here. To this place. And then the three of us are going to BURN THE WHOLE ISLAND DOWN. No more roaches. No more spiders. I can sleep in peace knowing I have done the work of the righteous.” “Don't you think you're over reacting?” “How could you hate them?!? You're a monster!” “You haven't seen the horror...” “It doesn't matter. We're here to conduct an investigation. They may have further information about the Roaches.”  “So, where should we go? All these spiders look alike.” “We can ask that one!” You meet a large spider with big fangs, standing guard. It doesn't seem to want to attack you, however. It's just standing there, watching you with interest. "Hi!" it says, "I'm Spider!" It has a cheery, high pitched voice, coming from somewhere below its pedipalps. “Hello! What are you doing here?” “I'm guarding our lair! There's mean things about." It makes little martial leaps in the air, to convince you of its fearsomeness. “And you're doing an amazing job of protecting the lair. You should be proud.” "You never know when someone mean and bad will try to break in, like some of those cockroaches, or nasty humans." “Humans? Like us? That's horrible!” It shakes its head sadly. "Some humans don't like spiders. Silly, huh? We're so good at killing roaches!" “Actually, we're trying to find the roaches ourselves. Could you tell us where you find them?” "Roaches are mostly yummy food, but some are smart and friendly, just like us! They are hiding to the north. You should go meet them! They're swell! Our chief knows exactly where they are. He's way to the north!" “... Friendly Roaches?” “... I don't believe it.” “burneverythingbureverything” Sorry about the map window getting in the way. I had multiple windows up, and forgot that the screencapture would show what I see, and not what the program would show. It'll go away. Eventually. An official looking spider marching precisely around. It comes up to your waist, and looks as if it could be a threat, were it not for the unflappable friendliness of these creatures. "I'm called Spider," it says perkily. “And I'm Bronwyn. What are you doing here?” "I'm the captain spider." It looks you over. "You're cute!" “A Captain? That's an important job!” It looks uninterested in discussing it. "Yep. The chief picked me." It returns to the subject its most interested in. "You're really cute!" “Oh, I'm not that cute.” "Yeah!" It says, bouncing up and down a little. "Want to go on a date?" You decline politely. It looks sad, then brightens up. "OK! But if you change your mind, I'll be right here. Ask for Spider!"  “I feel really bad about that.” “Hey!” You meet a giant spider, pacing about, lost in thought. The hair on its legs has streaks of white. It must be rather old. Another reason why I don't like the GIFTS. It's impossible to tell them apart. The 'Captain' is to our south in the previous picture – this new spider is to the left. "Hello, humans! My name is Spider," it says. Despite its age, it still has the bright, chirpy voice of the younger spiders. “And what do you do?” “I'm a sage spider! I record the history of our people!" “You're a sage? You must be very smart!” "Yeah! That means I have lots of cool learning and stuff. I record history mainly. When I'm not eating yummy bugs!" “Tell me more about your history?” "Yeah! Would you like to hear about the great journey, or what we did otherwise?" Journey Otherwise You have to see it to believe it. “We should move before Art stands still long enough to melt the rock under her.”  “I don't think we could move these rocks.” “And the Spiders have ignored them.” “Except I think I saw something over this way...”  “Careful, there's a sharp turn here.” I'm stunned here. For the entirety of all the games leading up to now, secret passages have always been two tiles long. That this one is three tiles, and you have to turn while sliding through it to get into this clear space is amazing. “I got this.”   “And that is a lot of metal.” “Even if this is merely iron ingots... that's still a lot.” “But we can't carry them all right now. We should leave them until we can extract them later. There's no forge marks on them either... quite odd.” “Well, let's get moving then. I don't think Spider or Spider can do anything about this.” “I agree.” Each of those bars weighs twenty stone. I'll need a lot more Strength to make coming here and robbing the place worthwhile.  “At least we know where those bars were made now.”  “Ugh.” “So cute!” Baby spiders don't say much. “Let's go north! Maybe the King Spider is in the back!” “Sounds as good an idea as any.” “Or we could find more 'free range' roaches.” “There sure are a lot of them.” “Nothing a Fireball or six won't fix.” “I like the way you think.” “Because there's more of them over here!” No loot though. “Where is the King?” “Not here.” “North or south?” “North!”  “Amazing! A temperature controlled larder!”       An officious, bold spider blocks your way. It doesn't want to let you go east. “Hello there! I'm Bronwyn!” "My name is Spider," it says sombrely. “So, you're doing a very good job of standing here. Why?” "I'm a guardian arachnid!" it says in a proud way, and show its fangs to punctuate the point. “And who are you guarding?” "I'm guarding our chief! You can't go east until you prove you're allowed!" “Your chief must be very proud of you to trust you with this job!” "He's powerful and good! I will protect him, even until it's not convenient!" “Well, I think I'm allowed to talk to your chief. I need some information from him.” It thinks, unsure for the moment how you would prove you can go east. Finally, it says "If you are allowed to see our chief, surely you would know his name! What is it!" “...” “It is Spider.” It jumps up and down happily. "That's it! That's chief spider's name! You can go through." The spider wanders off, looking for bugs. “That was... I don't know what to say, really.” And Spider will never get in our way again. “Spider!” You meet an older spider, its brown hairs starting to be run through with wisps of gray. It has a gold circlet around its head. "I'm Spider," it says, it's high pitched voice has a tiny hint of authority. "I'm a leader spider!" it says. “And you're an amazing leader.” "I guided all the other spiders on a big, nasty journey to the surface! I lead them in catching yummy bugs. And I say what we should do about those nasty cockroaches." “Tell us about the surface!” "We used to live down in the weird, dark, chilly caves. Then there was a fire. Then we found a way up here!" It gives a happy little jump up and down. "Now we finds lots more bugs!" “You must be the bestest Spider to ever Spider if you find bugs so easy!” It plucks a fist sized cockroach from a nearby web and munches it down. "Yum! Snacks!" “Chief Spider, Spider told us that you know more about the cockroaches in the area.” "Cockroaches are good food, but also tough and hard to hunt. But not all are bad! There's some friendly roaches! They live in the north, but are all hidden. Would you like to know where the friendly roaches are?" “The Friendly ones? Yes please. They may be able to help us find where they are from.” "Before I tell you, you need to help us. Directly northwest of here, in the middle of a circle of stone, is a big roach lair. Go there and some of my spiders will meet you. Help them kill all the bad roaches, and I'll tell you where the nice ones are!" “Kill feral roaches to learn the location of the civilized roaches. Understood! We'll be back!” “But before we do, I want to check out this room.”  “Neat! Yoink! I'll check you out later.”  “Why would you step on that?” “Because there wasn't enough energy in it to me a problem. See?” “Easy!” “Still demons.” A little bit of everything, but still easy to crush. And interestingly enough, they 'explode' when they die, leaving behind the 'crater' texture.  “Anyone want Wormgrass?” “LEAVING!” “I think this is the spot.” “Are we ever! SPIDERS! CHARGE!”  “I hate all of you. Forever.” “Well, we could be over there.” This isn't much of a fight. But this is the first encounter with the fourth type of Roach – the Guardian. Nothing to out of the ordinary. Huge chunk of potential damage, but easily taken care of by a Party Blessing. And while I'm here, let's take a look at the GIFTS, shall we? 25 SKILL? And 9 POISON? Good lord, these things will wreck your day when they bite you. But they're something of a glass cannon. The Spiders also like to web the enemy which reduces their ability to move and act. Honestly, I don't think we're needed for the Spiders to win the fight. But if I did that, I wouldn't get the precious XP for the kills! “YAY!” “We've beaten down the bad roaches! Can you tell us where the friendly ones are now?” Chief Spider bounces happily. "Well done! You helped us get lots of yummy, yummy food! The Roach Lair is directly north of here, hidden in the middle of a bunch of trees. Be nice to them because they are really friendly and good." “We will!” “burneverything” “Hey! Have you seen any roaches around?” “Nope!” “Bye!” Um, why did the game consider a Spider themed enemy mob? And they fled from me anyway. “Fire.” “Brimstone.” “Boiling Hot MAGMA” “I will find a magic that will let me call down the stars themselves!” “She's starting to scare me. And what are stars?” “Eh, she'll never go through with it. And Stars are those things when it gets dark out and you see above the clouds.” “I thought those were diamonds in the ceiling!” “I think we're here.” “And this place too!”
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Jun 12, 2016 23:00
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I like to imagine Jeff Vogel was cackling evilly while writing this section. Also, you have the wrong screenshot for your "otherwise" story (it's just a repeat of the Great Journey one).
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Jun 12, 2016 23:56
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The spiders are my absolute favourite thing about the Exile series thus far. They are so great.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:59
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Yeah, this seems like a suitable reason to burn the world. Art. You're friends with Erika. And know mages who know Quickfire. You can do this.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:08
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What would happen if you cast Quickfire on the surface? With no walls to stop it, would it just keep expanding until it burned the entire continent?
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Jun 13, 2016 00:09
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Also, you have the wrong screenshot for your "otherwise" story (it's just a repeat of the Great Journey one). Nope! There are subtle differences. The Lone Badger posted:What would happen if you cast Quickfire on the surface? With no walls to stop it, would it just keep expanding until it burned the entire continent? In game mechanics, you can only cast Quickfire in a town. In narrative terms, it burns itself out eventually. Think of it as a Napalm Strike, and not a Nuke.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:13
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berryjon posted:Nope! There are subtle differences. Oh, so there are. How silly.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:45
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Update 19 – Something Aweful vs The Anama Due to the nature of the Anama Church, I posed their questions to the original thread on SA The purpose of this post is to compile the responses from the thread into a cohesive whole, and as such, if you want to skip this part and go for the next one go right ahead. I won't blame you one bit. GodFish: Main points would be mages created the mushrooms that provide light and food for exile. And there are probably more good mages than evil ones to weigh the scales. LuffyVeggies: What really makes those frustrating is that they're so easy to counterpoint, yet the way they're phrased and the fact that you're forced into a black-or-white yes or no answer, and I recall only one those being phrased in such a way that I could answer in a way other than "Yes, but..." And then they go, "Yes? You agree! Good day!" Because of limited programming/dickishness. In any case, the best response I could come up for this one is that it's not the magic that's good or evil, it's the user. The Lone Badger: Yes, let's give up magic! And then we can all die of easily-preventable diseases! Won't that be fun. Godfish: Uh, excuse me, Cure Disease is a holy spell, not magic, you philistine. MagusOfStars: The real problem is that the questions are often pretty lame. "Magic can do good but it can also do evil. Do you agree?" Um yeah, no poo poo - there's no way to honestly say No here. Of course, the same could be said for physical weapons, Priest spells, poisons, and basically anything else humans have ever made. thetruegentleman: Beyond the fact that good and evil are subjective, the biggest problem with magic is that you can't get rid of it: magic is a part of the world, and denying it is like trying to deny physics because someone can destroy a town with a trebuchet. Even burning all the scrolls and magic tomes won't work, because there's no way to prevent demons from simply re-introducing magic in the form of a cult, which simply ensures that all non-basic magic becomes evil...assuming the gods don't re-introduce magic themselves as well. Worse, no magic means less protection from monsters with magical abilities, and no enchanted weapons to level the playing field against particularly powerful ones. TooMuchAbstraction: The reductive response they're looking for is that yes, of course magic is capable of great evil. Linda and Garzahd, for example. Hell, you can learn to cast Summon Demon in this game, and it's not a holy spell. The other side to that coin is that holy magic is also capable of evil. The world abounds with undead and demons that mostly sling around perverted variants of priestly spells. With the notable exception of liches, most undead don't cast much in the way of mage spells that I can recall. Montegoraon: All true. And even then, one person can always be assassinated. The most dangerous thing is when "too many men in the same armor think they're right." thetruegentleman: Let's throw together some maxim based moral philosophy, courtesy of Kant: "I will A in C in order to realize or produce E", where ‘A’ is some act type, ‘C’ is some type of circumstance, and ‘E’ is some type of end to be realized or achieved by A in C. 1. "A maxim capturing your reason for an action": "I will use magic (A) if I believe it necessary (C) to better or protect people's lives (E)." 2. "frame it as a universal principle for all rational agents": "Magic should only be used when it can better or protect people's lives." 3. "whether a world based on this universal principle is conceivable": "Magic exists, and people use it to better and protect lives (proof: our adventurer group)." 4. "whether [one] would will the maxim to be a principle in this world": "If people used magic ONLY to better and protect people's lives, then I would be content." As 3 and 4 are both true, the use of magic can be perfectly moral, as there are no situations where I myself would not want magic to be used to better or protect people's lives. Not that there aren't problems: if I were a farmer, I would be frustrated if a mage started giving out free food to people who would otherwise have paid me, but I still wouldn't say I have a moral right to be paid merely because I want to be. Ok, so this should prove that magic can be perfectly moral/beneficial. But what if we do the reverse, like the magic hater proposed? 1. "Magic is too dangerous to use (A) in all circumstances (C) as the dangers it can create cancel out the good it can create. (E)" 2. "Magic should never be used in any circumstance." 3. "One must never use magic in all circumstances, even though it can be encountered entirely by accident (condition failed: people can, and do, use magic entirely by accident, like when they drink from a magic lake, or fix a cave full of crystals.) 4. "If people did not use magic when it could have saved my life, I would probably prefer people to use magic for my sake." (condition failed, as I would want magic to be used to save my life.) As such, there is a perfect duty (we should not act by maxims that result in logical contradictions when we attempt to universalize them) to allow people to use magic, as it can be used accidentally. There is also an imperfect duty: if magic could be used to save me, I would prefer to be saved, and so the possibility of magic's misuse simply doesn't justify overlooking the immediate good, even if I'm actually a murderous thug that the world would be better off without. As such, the proposition that all magic use should be considered immoral is a nonsensical mess of an argument, as it is outright impossible for everyone to follow and still remain moral, despite their best efforts, and people would also want exceptions regardless. TooMuchAbstraction: Not that I disagree with your post, but I believe "magic" in this case is specifically meant to be "things caused or created by a mage practicing arcane magics". Notably, priest spells (even though both mage and priest spells are called "spells" and "rituals" in game dialog) and alchemy are specifically exempted -- even though you can kill with priest spells and create deadly poisons with alchemy! Hell, priest and mage spells even use the same energy source (SP). The practical problem with mages appears to be that they're the people who are most likely to try to push boundaries (you don't see crazy priests living in towers surrounded by traps, for example), and magic has several well-known rituals of significant destructive potential (Quickfire, for example, but also the creation/destruction of magic barriers, summoning of demons, and of course our old favorite Shockwave). This makes it scarier in the "assault weapon" sense, even if the underlying principles and thus scope of potential capabilities might not be all that different from priestly spells. Alchemy of course isn't scary simply because it doesn't scale. You need fairly massive infrastructure to perpetrate alchemy on a large enough scale for it to be a meaningful existential threat. Arming soldiers with Invulnerability, Haste, and Bless potions, coating their weapons in Killer Poison, etc. -- that's a lot of input ingredients for a single soldier! MagusOfStars: Yes. I can't remember if it's in this game or one of the remakes, but there's actually one Anama who specifically clarifies that Arcane Magic is their concern. Part of the justification is simply the overall focus of the magic. Arcane magic as defined in Exile is all about killing and destruction - direct damage spells like Fireball, summoning Demons and monsters, Quickfire and so on. While there are certain Priest spells with similar capabilities, they're greatly outnumbered by the more benign magics like healing and protective magics. Or, to put it another way: Priest spells can be used in many ways and for many purposes. Arcane spells can be used for only one thing - leaving a trail of bloody corpses. Cerebral Bore: Leaving mechanics aside, it seems like Arcane magic kind of is on a higher potential level of destructiveness lorewise. We have all these ridiculously powerful mages like Erika, Garzahd and Rentar-Ihrno, but we don't really see any priests of the same caliber. In that way the Anama are kinda sensible, since if one priest starts doing bad poo poo the damage can be significant but still contained, whereas back in Exile 2, Garzahd was running around with a goddamn legion of demons at his back and Rentar-Ihrno was busy preparing spells to wipe out all humans in Exile. So while most mages probably don't go bad, it only takes one crazy superwizard to really poo poo things up. thetruegentleman Erika is also the one who created Exile's staple food (and possibly Exiles books/scrolls, although I forget), and Garzahd created the only long range, permanent, large scale teleporter, on top of being the right hand man of the emperor, going so far as to take over after his death: these are people would have had massive influence even without the ability to throw fireballs. Priests, by contrast, are generally obliged not to seek things like massive fortunes, or significant political power...except, of course, for Liches, who are priests every bit as dangerous as the famed wizards. Cerebral Bore: @thetruegentleman: Sure, but on the first count that's using arcane magic to mitigate suffering that wouldn't have existed without arcane magic, and on the second count, the Empire's teleporter was first used to create a horrible penal colony for undesirables and then to conduct a campaign of genocide. None of this really disproves the Anama's point about the use of arcane magic being a Bad Thing overall, rather the opposite. Rockopolis: Gotta say, "Anama Church" sounds like what a cult from Silent Hill would be named. Is Magic evil, or are it's practitioners evil...competition?  Glazius: Really it's the "deranged" in that question that bugs me. I mean, a deranged mind isn't going to be able to focus enough to use magic properly. Magic can be directed toward evil, of course, but that's by a deliberate and malicious choice. Father Lockhart, in Shayder, asks: LuffyVeggies: Honestly, unlike the first question, this one is much more reasonable and fair. The fact is that in real life, humanity has had to overcome plenty of obstacles and hardships with even less than the Anama (we don't even have prayers - at least not ones that have any visible effect). Real life is a perfect example of how great deeds can be accomplished without magic. Still, magic makes it easier. Even Priest spells (which the Anama are okay with) make it easier. GodFish: The problem is its still working from the assumption that mage spells are evil, with people viewing them as a necessary evil. Yeah, you can accomplish great things without magic, but there isn't any particular reason to. Magic would have made the process vastly easier. If anything they probably risked/lost more lives by refusing to use magic than they would have if they'd had a few mages around to blast the goblin hordes with firestorms. Using hard work when you could have used easy work isn't a virtue. EponymousMrYar: No, it's working from the assumption that magic isn't necessary, ergo mages aren't necessary. You can easily throw the same thing back at them with the rhetoric of 'sounds like all you needed was hard work and courage, prayer wasn't necessary either.' Double bingo if they go for the 'anything not necessary is evil' route though. Society is practically based on all sorts of things that aren't strictly required. Tax Refund: To that question as it is phrased, the only honest answer I can give is "yes". But the excluded middle is "... but they would have been convenient." The Great Wall of China proves that modern construction equipment isn't, strictly speaking, necessary to produce immense structures: you can do it with slavery and death (I count "forced labor", even if it's temporary, as slavery, and far too many of the workers on the Great Wall died during its construction.) But modern construction equipment sure makes it easier, and usually, nobody dies during the construction of modern buildings. SIGSEGV: The question as it is phrased forces a "Yes" but it's obvious magic would have been a useful tool, if they have managed that much without magic, how much better would things be by now if they had used it? MagusOfStars:First off, the entire premise of the question is misleading, because it doesn't actually prove anything. It's theoretically possible to clear tangled thickets with your bare hands, but that doesn't justify humans never using a machete. The fact that you cleared the island by yourselves (with apparently minimal support from the Empire at large) is very impressive, but doesn't really prove that Magic should be eradicated. Secondly, in this particular example, Mage spells weren't needed to perform a great deed. But the plural of anecdote is not data. Think of a lot of the other great deeds in the history of the world (as we know it) were heavily reliant on magic: >Stopping Grah-Hoth required serious mage spells (both the first time and when Art, Peregrine et al did so) >Mages basically made Exile livable and into a functional community. I can't remember the exact wording, but it's stated somewhere that the powerful mages sent down to Exile created the mushrooms which are the primary food source and helped spread the glowing fungus that keeps the place lit. >Stopping the slimes required the Mage spell Fireball OR a Priest spell which is a carbon-copy of Fireball. Logically, if you hate Mage spells, a Priest spell that's the exact equivalent should also be off limits, therefore, the slimes should should still be wreaking havoc. TooMuchAbstraction: Let's take a look at opportunity costs. If I decide to dig a ditch with my bare hands, rather than using a shovel, it will take me far, far longer. That extra time spent is the cost I am paying to avoid making use of the shovel. With that time I could have done any number of other beneficial things -- worked and donated the proceeds to charity, cleared farmland faster so people wouldn't starve, or just focused on making life more comfortable for everyone. But instead I spent that time digging in the dirt with my bare hands. And why? Because I don't like the fact that shovels can be used to hit people on the head? The refusal to use magic to help clear habitable lands in Bigail doubtless added many years of backbreaking labor to the process. Why don't you go ask the guy who's bent double from day 20 of moving boulders out of a field how he'd feel if a mage came by and cleared the entire field for him in a day? Kacie: Last question proved Art is more than happy to break out the formal logic, so I'll take a stab at it; it's fun to see which cases match. Anecdotal evidence; "it was true for me this time, so it will hold true in all cases." Just because they got away with not using magic this time says nothing about some other catastrophe that could only be solved with magic. They are also using the Noble Effort, "we worked really hard on this, so it must have value/be right." Then there's what has already been pointed out, the "we live in the best of all possible worlds" - refusing to consider that magic could have made the process easier and safer, and they would be better off than they are now if had used it. All that said, they have a point about how one can do great deeds without magic, but the jump to "therefore magic isn't needed" is wrong. Glazius: I think part of this really hinges on how magic actually is in the world. I mean, we're PCs, we can pick up spells whenever barring character creation disadvantages, but how much of a sacrifice or a possibility is it really for the common man to start using magic? And magic is never really dangerous for us, barring friendly fire incidents or quickfire, but mages traffic regularly with demons and other forces. So it may not be "do you want to use a shovel to dig the hole" but "do you want to use the radioactive shovel that plugs into your soul to dig the hole". On its face though, with how PCs experience the magic system? Shovel vs. not-shovel. TooMuchAbstraction: The number of mages who go fooling around with demons is markedly lower than the number of mages in the world. Getting screwed up by demons is kind of the "accidentally shot myself in the foot with my gun" of the Exile world -- it's not going to happen to you if you don't own a gun, but just because you do own one doesn't mean you're a guaranteed foot-shooter. As for the common man picking up magic, let's extend my shovel analogy earlier: if you have to dig a trench, would you rather use a shovel or a back hoe? The back hoe could dig a huge trench in a few hours, which would take you days even with the shovel. But you're not licensed to use a back hoe, so you hire an operator instead; they bring their expertise and specialized equipment, do the job, you pay them, you're both happy. We know that magic can be used for such civil engineering jobs because the Castle in Exile was built by magic (its walls are formed out of massive single slabs of stone). berryjon: Not so much how it works, but look at how the Tower handles teaching Magic, which is implied to be copied wholesale from the Empire's methodology, just with more students. When you apprentice yourself, the first thing they do is magically silence you for a year. Opinions about why may vary, but the justification given in-universe is that this gives the students an appreciation for what they are learning - and to avoid accidents as apprentices don't start casting spells willy-nilly. In Exile, the only mages who can be said to have really gone off the reservation is Linda who has had plenty of contact with Demons. Certainly many are arrogant, or otherwise anti-social, but they're not completely crazy like she is. Cheez: You say, as you've cut down dozens of mages and implied crazy mage cultist types over the course of the trilogy. Anyway, the point seems to center around the fact that magic is a touchy subject compared to priestly stuff. Magic is putting a gun in a room with a toddler, and everything else is a lot safer in comparison. Remember when the portal device kinda blew up and nearly destroyed everything, had it not been for the intervention? That was a product of mages. Ornedan: What the party did to the portal device is comparable to breaking a major dam or intentionally causing a nuclear plant to melt down. That is, a really destructive way to break the system beyond any hope of repair. Just because a bunch of terrorists could cause horrible collateral damage by breaking magical infrastructure is not a good reason to not have that infrastructure in the first place. A thing to keep in mind is that the player spell lists don't include many non-fighty uses of magic. There are some utility magics, but nothing major or long-lasting. Pretty much everything magical but crystal souls that Vahnatai do with crystals seems to be mage magic (crystal souls being explicitly noted to be holy magic). Magical utility seems less common in human Exile, but there are for example the communication necklaces and the portals. e: On further thought, do the Vahnatai even really make a distinction between mages and priests? Maybe the crystal soul creation is considered holy just because it's magic that's mucking about with a revered ancestor. MagusofStars: That's a fair point. It's implied very heavily (maybe even stated outright?) that PC magical training is combat focused. Many of the possible utility uses of magic aren't really practical for an adventurer on the go - binding stone for buildings is useless since you don't carry building materials, you don't stay in the same spot long enough to create a portal, you don't have the time to do anything research related like magically modifying food, you have too many different quests/jobs to bother with long-range scrying of any one particular target, and so on. TooMuchAbstraction: Capture Soul and Simulacrum, the only Vahnatai spells that the player can cast (unless you count Quickfire), are both mage spells. The Crystal Souls themselves are culturally considered holy, and I believe statwise are capable of level-7 mage and priest spells. Fangz:There's a big political angle here, with Mages being essentially the Empire ruling class up until the end of Exile 2. Personally I wonder if that's more significant than the intrinsics of mage vs priest spells. Kinfolk910:I'm just going to throw some anti-anti-mage arguments out. I'm just going to stick to in universe in character knowledge. If there is demand for real life knowledge I guess I'll post those as well later. First off let's be honest. Both sides have spells which do direct damage. To levy destructive forces as a existence crime against a person for something you can also do is hypocrisy. For that matter does it really matter how they die to those that died? There is very little difference in someone getting fireballed vs smited vs getting cursed to the point of uselessness and then getting sworded to death. Fundamentally speaking from a practical standpoint there is very little difference to the victim between killed by an angel and killed by a demon. Some other worldly force just killed you. Hate to bring it up but one of the innate spells that priests get is Pestilence. That disease causing spell. Yeah. A literal plague. Mages can't do that. So... What's the end goal for your solution for mages? Because let's be honest here. I doubt you would end this at making mages uncomfortable. First you make them look evil and portray yourself as good. You convince everyone they are evil and then what? Nothing happens? No. People will start doing stuff. From merely making lives difficult to outright murdering a mage for existing. And the worst part? They think it makes them good/It's to make the world a better place/It's a mage who cares/ECT... I'm stealing this quote and I don't remember where. Those who fear the darkness just have not seen what the light can do. If you want to see true evil just watch a person doing something because they think it's the right thing to do. So what next? Murdering every one with the potential for Magery is essentially genocide. Put them in a camp? They'll escape. And let's be honest. Putting mages somewhere else sort of failed over the last 3 games. And what happened? The emperor got assassinated by those people you literally chucked into a hole to die. Hope this fills out some in universe argument fodder? thetruegentleman:They don't need an end goal: they aren't asking for a magic "Final Solution" (that we know of yet), but rather, for people to voluntarily give up magic themselves. If they want to "end" magic, it will presumably be by shunning mages socially in the hopes of pressuring them to give up on magic in order to be "normal". Basically, it's Fantasy Pacifism: they aren't seriously expecting everyone to give up magic, but they do believe that standing up to magic has value in and of itself. As for why that's the case... - - - - - Welcome back to the Fun With Magical Ethics Corner, where I'll be discussing the root of Animist philosophy, Consequentialism: a basic tenant of Animism seems to be that non-priest magic *always* causes evil, which necessitates that their philosophy be based on the consequences of an action, as opposed to the intent of the user (basically, if I try to save someone who is *almost* guaranteed to die, but I throw a fireball and hit/kill said person instead, I'm a worse person than if I did nothing at all). More specifically, it seems to be Negative Utilitarianism, which is aimed at preventing actions that cause harm (in this case, magic). For simplicity's sake, we'll say that "common sense" natural rights still can't be violated to achieve Animist ends: in other words, people aren't killed as soon as they commit more "bad" than "good", and the human race shouldn't be destroyed because more obviously "bad" people than obviously "good" happen to exist. Even still, Animist philosophy leads to some VERY ugly extrapolations, the most obvious of which is, "why stop at magic": if, for example, we take the sword example of "Captain Sewer Wand" at face value, ANY weapons that harm more people than monsters should be banned, as should institutions such as the army. And yet, they still have an army, and the Animists flat out admitted that they use weapons other than magic to fight monsters. This being the case, what makes the evil in magic so much more powerful than the evil swords and armies can produce? The only logical answer is that magic puts too much power in the hands of one person (or a few people) instead of the many, and so magicians become more dangerous by virtue of power always corrupting: this, however, assumes that the power itself (magic) is what causes their corruption, rather than magic being a mechanism FOR corruption. The difference is subtle, but powerful, and we again have our Anima friends to help argue against themselves: just as the land was claimed without the aid of magic, so to does corruption arise without the aid of magic (look at Hawthorne, for example). Magic makes that corruption easier, but immoral people can still do bad things even without magic; their work will probably take longer, because they need to use people and equipment instead of magic, but evil can still be done. Thus, If magic is evil, it is because people are evil; and if people are evil, than the Animists have a duty to destroy humanity, which is itself an act of terrible evil. TL;DR: if magic always causes more harm than good, it is because people prefer doing harm to doing good. Magic makes performing harm more difficult, but doesn't prevent it, which makes the purpose of the Anima philosophy unclear. Cerebral Bore: @thetruegentleman: This isn't how ethics works, mang. You can argue that people should be allowed to own a gun for self-defense without also arguing that they should be allowed to carry a suitcase nuke with them. @Kinfolk910: The Anama area dinky little cult living on a dinky little island in the middle of loving nowhere. Their end goal is probably to be left alone and in peace rather than to reshape the world in their own image. Cheez: I'd just like to point out that in-universe, priest spells seem to revolve around asking (a/the) god(s) to do a thing for you, whereas magic is this crazy thing you can cook up in your basement and do the unspeakable, provided you have the tools. The existing, common spells aren't the limits of magery, and only scratch the surface. Galvax, of Fenris Port asks of us: TooMuchAbstraction: Again, don't blame the tool, blame the tool user; why was this mage experimenting in a way that put others at risk? Why were they allowed to experiment in this fashion? There's many reasons why the Empire so heavily regulates mages, and public safety must be one of the more public ones. Rockopolis:  YesBad events are bad events. It's alright to say yes and be completely honest here. President Ark: Yes, just like it'd be terrible if she died because of a horse kicking her or a drunk guy or a fire. Doesn't mean we should get rid of horses, alcohol, and fire. Montegoaron: Anyway, in response to the question, yes, that's terrible. Unfortunately, stupidity and gross incompetence are not things that can be cured or banned, no matter how hard you try. No, not even with exile. The Lone Badger: Yes it is. While we're at it we should ban fire. That kills tons of people. LuffyVeggies: While the answer is yes, the problem is the implications of the question and what it leaves out. Of course it's a terrible thing to happen, but magic is far from the only thing that can cause such a tragedy. Others have already said why. But furthermore, the question leaves out context - WHAT kind of spell was this mage trying to create? What sort of experience did he have? Why were there 6 other people in the house at the same time, especially if what the mage was doing was considered dangerous? These are all questions that would shed light on the situation. Kinfolk910: Yes it's a bad thing. Other points have been raised which already addressed this bit of leading stupidity. Same thing can be said of Priests as well. You healed a murderer who went on to kill a lot of people. So we should stop healing people to prevent people from dying in the future. Of course. MagusOfStars: Yes, it's terrible. However, similar to the other questions thus far, this doesn't prove the Anama's case. Let's agree this result was terrible. This does not, however, in any way imply that all magic should be banned. 1.) The Mage was criminally negligent in performing experiments in an occupied house. This is why Mages are supposed to have laboratories or isolated towers. Involuntary manslaughter did not always have a formal legal name, but it's been a crime basically forever. 2.) Both the Empire and Exile put heavy restrictions on magic, because they know that this exact sort of thing can happen. The Empire's rules, in fact, are sufficiently draconian that the Mage was almost certainly performing illegal research. So the Mage was a criminal in at least two separate ways. The answer to that is to punish the criminal, not to scapegoat magic. Do not blame the arrow, blame the man holding the bow. Cthulhu Dreams: I mean how us this different from an idiot chemist blowing himself and anyone in the area up making FOOF or something? Such a dumb argument WhyBird: If your cousin had been a wizard too this would never have happened. radintorov: That is terrible indeed. I lost a cousin to a blacksmith: he was experimenting with a new fuel for the forge, and the resulting accident killed her, and twelve others in the houses she was in. She was 15, and died because of one lone, careless blacksmith. Is it not a horrible thing?  I mean, the answer to the question is "yes", but again I can't help but be critical of the reasoning behind the question. Glazius: One of the advantages we have as PCs is that our magic has known, predictable effects. But can't magic just do anything? So you can be experimenting under controlled conditions but then your spell sets fire to the nearest green roof because unbeknownst to you that's what you made it do. PresidentArk: well, you could just as easily have a miner or a smith or something working with this interesting silvery metal he found in the mines one day and then oops the smoke from his chimney poisoned half the valley because it was uranium (which is a thing that is known to exist in the world of Exile) Whybird: I think it's fair to say that the way magic is portrayed in the series, accidentally killing a whole bunch of people with magic is a lot easier than accidentally killing a whole bunch of people through other means. Vil: Yeah, one of my complaints with the Anama is not so much that they don't have a point, but that they argue their point insultingly fallaciously, to the extent that I'm inclined to disagree with them just on account of disliking their manipulations. Whybird: I honestly think that's not an accident. They're a religious cult trying to hook people in -- they are totally going to be using every tool in their box to do it. Cerebral Bore: I think that the problem this dude here is pointing out is more about mages in general apparently have to perform potentially hazardous experiments to come up with their stuff rather than the harm caused by this specific incident that was used to illustrate the point. A single magical accident may cause damage equivalent to a blacksmith or alchemist screwing up, but the amount of mages running experiments is presumably much larger and thus would cause more harm on the whole. Of course it's a pretty bad argument to use an individual example without presenting the larger context first, but that's the limitation of the medium for you. thetruegentleman: The Mages know drat well even basic magic is dangerous, and prepare accordingly:  So what the hell kind of spell was the mage trying to cast, and why were so many people living in a house being used for magical experiments? Sorry your cousin died while trying to make some magical version of crystal meth, or maybe an IED, but bad poo poo happens when you fail basic safety protocols. Also, be sure to tell your other cousins not to drink Bathtub Gin so they don't all get themselves killed in a similar way. Cheez: The idea is that it's really easy to get into magic and also really easy to screw up. The way the thread is speaking implies that the only magic that gets practiced is by "actual" mages, and that only "dangerous" magic can have consequences. In reality, any magic that hasn't been pegged down perfectly (like your mage spell list) is a recipe for disaster in one form or another. MagusOfStars: Of course, this is exactly why magic is firmly controlled in both Exile and the Empire. Magic that isn't by "actual" mages or that is experimental is highly illegal in the Empire. Do you blame the knife for cutting your purse? Do you blame the poison for murder? No - you blame the criminalwho used the tool illegally. Cerebral Bore: You're missing the point, because this isn't about blame. It's about the Anama arguing that even with the best safeguards and strictest legal controls this poo poo still finds a way to happen on a significant scale. Another point would be that those legal controls would very quickly cease to matter when it comes to damage prevention if another tyrant like Hawthorne or Gazahd seized control of the Empire, but the Anama probably wouldn't argue that for very understandable reasons. Vil: And how would the Anama's nay-saying really help that underlying problem then? It's not going to make people stop practicing magic entirely, it would just drive the magic practitioners underground and make them more likely to cause poo poo because of there being no proper channels for them to practice through any longer, and having to keep it secret from all their devout Anama-following friends and family. In the context of the game they can simply go somewhere out of Anama territory and avoid the problem. But if the Anama's trying to make a general point with all these blanket generalizations, then their point should still be practical even if the entire power structure of the world suddenly decided to 100% back the Anama point of view. If - when - it's not, they shouldn't be generalizing in the first place. Cerebral Bore: As mentioned, the end goal of the Anama is probably to be left alone to do their thing rather than take over the world. EDIT: And unless they have some kind of hardcore evangelical mandate built into their worldview, they really don't have any ethical obligation to try and change the entire world either. Montegoraon: The leader doesn't seem to be a fundamentalist when we spoke to him, but judging from the books attributed to him, there is definitely a significant element in the Anama church that is. Kacie: This the sort of problem that crops up, however - a bit down the line, and someone is taking this philosophy and trying to impose it on the world as a whole. The same sort of thing happens even with theologies that are teaching tolerance. The Anama are preaching intolerance - they are playing with fire. Possibly quickfire. Hilariously, this is a version of "this is why we train our mages carefully!" argument, except tuned to "this is why we moderate our speech and do not incite hatred." Cerebral Bore: Nah, the Anama are pretty harmless. They dislike mages, sure, but so far there's nothing in their teachings that would promote any kind of retaliation against any individual magic user. Hell, the worst that any mage has had to face is partial social ostracism, which is pretty drat small potatoes compared to how e.g. the Empire has treated dissenters historically. Besides that they're a dinky-rear end little cult on a dinky-rear end island in the middle of nowhere in a setting ruled with an iron fist by a world-spanning empire. Even if somebody down the line wanted to it's not like they'd be able to do anything against the wider mage population. Hell, it's not like mages are helpless either. Somebody like Garzahd alone would probably be enough to wipe the Anama out all by his lonesome, and when we factor in the political power that mages seem to wield pretty much everywhere the idea of some kind of mage pogrom is clearly absurd. The Lone Badger: The Anama are really just fantasy-Amish. LuffyVeggies: Thinking of the Anama in this light somehow makes them a lot more tolerable. But even in real life, the Amish haven't given up ALL technology, just the public grid and some more recent tech. Kacie: As to the Anama being like the Amish - I don't know enough about the Amish as to whether they call technology the "dark arts" but when you start throwing around the language the Anama have, doesn't taken long for someone to decide "gee, if it is evil and the dark art, we should purge that!" --Possibly I'm taking this too seriously due to demagoguery being slung about recently in national politics, but yeah, rather uneasy about this sort of language. MagusOfStars: As for the Anama, it's a complete mischaracterization to argue that they just want to be left alone. "An entire profession and al derived quality of life benefits should not exist at all." That's the core of their philosophy! Not exactly the kind of argument that lends itself to live-and-let-live. The current reality of the situation is that they're quietly and peacefully accepting things right now even for those who disagree, but its impossible to tell just how much of that is true tolerance versus simple pragmatism of not wanting to draw the Empire into play. EDIT: Also, the Mage in Shayder directly states that they're trying to make her life stressful - though it's not clear if that's just quiet comments every now and then or something more serious. Cerebral Bore: @Kacie: Isn't the only person who has been talking about the "dark arts" a guy who's having a crisis of conscience and trying to justify his own beliefs to himself? @MagusOfStars: This is pretty ridiculous, tbh. I can personally think of several professions that should ideally not exist at all in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that I'm busy stockpiling thumbscrews for all them payday lenders. There's really nothing in-game to indicate that the Anama are planning something sinister. MagusOfStars: Check update 15 - seems like they're already hassling the Mage in Shayder. And really, in general, how often do firm and inflexible beliefs stay honorable forever, without getting or abused? Maybe Ahonar truly is honorable and won't hassle mages beyond endless comments to those who pass through Shayder. Does his successor have the same respect and forbearance? Mother Melemed posed this to the party: MagusOfStars: This is actually pretty much impossible to argue. The only problem is the same issue that limits efforts to remove firearms and WMD's in the real world: If you disarm and the other side doesn't, you're hosed because they'll just slaughter and enslave you. If Exile hadn't used mages, the Empire would have kept using magic and just flattened them. TooMuchAbstraction: Yeah, this is a problem of escalation. The only time in history that bringing a bigger weapon to the fight didn't result in more death was with nuclear weapons, which are even more destructive than Quickfire (Quickfire might be analogous to firebombing, maybe). It's not that we want to kill our enemies with unprecedented scale -- it's just that if we don't, then they'll kill more of ourguys. This is also why we use drone strikes against terrorists instead of sending in ground troops, despite the increased rate of civilian deaths: we value our allies' lives more highly than those of our enemies. Glazius; Finally, something we as PCs can agree with. Pretty sure almost every game of this series I ever played has hinged on starting with AoE mage spells and going up from there. EponymusMrYar: There's also the issue of what happens when you bring deterrence into the equation: simply having tons of destructive potential can save lives by preventing conflict because no one wants the consequences that such a conflict would bring. Alas, conflict is inevitable so yeah, in the vacuum that this is presented in it's hard not to agree. (Although magic can also cancel other magic out via protective spells.) TooMuchAbstraction: As I noted, the only time in history that deterrence has really had a provable effect is with nuclear weapons. Everything else falls under the bucket of "we have reserves" or "we'll just wage asymmetrical warfare". Deceitful Penguin: "My dynamite will sooner lead to peace than a thousand world conventions. As soon as men will find that in one instant, whole armies can be utterly destroyed, they surely will abide by golden peace."- a man as equally wrong as you thetruegentleman: "What a thousand swords could not do, magic brought about": is that really true though? Alchemy can be used to poison water sources and set fires, and soldiers hardly need magic to butcher civilians: yes, it takes longer, but isn't the end result the same? And what about the negative aspect of that statement: how does one fight demons without enchantments and exorcism spells, except by throwing masses of soldiers against them? To use the dynamite example, do you know what the top ten bloodiest wars are? World War 2 is at the top, but the Mongol conquests, Three Kingdoms War, Qin conquest of China, Taiping Rebellion, and Lushan Rebellion all follow before World War 1 appears. Dynamite may not have prevented conflict, but the wars preceding its invention made up for their lack of "bang" by being long, bloody affairs. The overall point is that banning magic is a lot like banning dynamite: the killing might be slower, but it still persists, which means that only the benefits of dynamite are actually lost, for all practical purposes Finally, Father Loomis in Bavner tries this:CuriousCat: Again with the technically correct. Sure, they could live, work, and be happy without magic... but we could do the same without electricity. That doesn't mean it's not incredibly useful. MagusOfStars: As is common, this is a statement which is simultaneously true and irrelevant. There are very, very few things in life that you couldn't say "(Blank) is not necessary to live life. One can work, live, and be happy without (Blank)". Heck, you could even fill in the blank with things which are widely considered positive to have present in your life, such as "Love", "Family", "being healthy", and so on. All because you *can* adjust and live life without these things doesn't mean we should abolish them. Cthulhu Dreams: To be completely fair, I'd agree that magic summoning seems to be completely moronic. Have we seen anyone use summoning for good? Summoning seems like it should be banned due to being wildly dangerous. TooMuchAbstraction: To the extent that summoning magic and teleportation magic seem to be broadly similar, Rentar-Ihrno teleports in to help you at some point in Exile 2, doesn't she? And summoning magiccan occasionally be useful in the Exile series. It's just usually not worth bothering with. The big problem is that the word "summoning" is almost always followed by "demons". And demons are bad news. thetruegentleman: Well, it's true that people can live without magic in ordinary circumstances...but there's the rub: ordinary. The people of Exile most certainly *couldn't* live without magic, since they needed it to make a food source, and it's probably safe to assume that there are going to be future hazardous circumstances where magic might be necessary in a similar way: a demonic invasion, a giant meteor/giant volcano that partially blocks out the sun, desertification, sudden years of drought that could forcibly displace entire regions of people, an ice age... And that's the problem: if the Anima had their own solutions to these potential complications, their point would stand; but it seems safe to say that if the Anima can't handle their current major regional catastrophe, they probably couldn't handle multiple ones of similar scale on an Empire wide level. The Empire, in the mean time, seems to have done just that in the past, like when they got rid of all the monsters (especially the dragons): the Anima still benefited from that, even if they don't use magic themselves, so how they would fare dealing with similar circumstances themselves is an open question. Ornedan: Magic (both mage and priest) seems to mostly be an art, but as far as I remember the games only (some) mages are trying to systematically study magic, to make it a science. The Anama merely think they know how their magic works. Orders of faith in these games seem to either venerate some abstract concept or worship ancestors or demons. The demons I could see being able to lend power to a priest, but the rest not so much. So my guess is that priest and mage magic are not really fundamentally separate stuff. Just differences of approach to the same thing. Rockopoplis: On the other hand, would the people of Exile be in Exile if magic had not been used to make it habitable enough to be a hellhole of a prison? That's not really a plus for magic. TooMuchAbstraction: The narrative propagated by Erika is that the original exiles were just tossed in there and it was only through her considerable magical prowess that they were able to get food, light, and other really basic necessities to ensure survival. Exile 2 casts doubt on this story, as the Vahnatai predate the formation of Exile and are responsible for at least some magical advances (such as glowing moss and edible, farmable fungi) in terms of making survival possible. In any case, though, the Empire clearly didn't care about the fates of those initial exiles at the very least. Food issues notwithstanding, the caves at that time were playing host to Grah-Hoth in his full power, as well as a sizable colony of sliths, giants, aranea, and at least one hostile dragon. The Empire sent an incredibly well-equipped expedition down there before they started using the caves as a penal colony, and literally all of them died. They did not expect the initial exiles to survive. Cerebral Bore: On the third hand the Empire would not have the option of setting up a penal conony in a (presumed) underground hellscape if they didn't have access to magic teleportation, so we're kinda back at magic fixing stuff that magic caused in the first place. Idragon: I also recall something about the original exiles also being buried up till their eyes in demons at the beginning and that it was only the actions of a bunch of wizards and magic swords did they clear out all the demons. Then again, how were the sliths living in a demon infested food starved pitch black hellscape before the original exiles showed up? PartsKit: I'm really, really late to the Anama chat, so I'll try to keep this short. It may seem like their dialogue is clumsy, and it kinda is since the engine and folks' non-quest short attention spans are not suited to long intricate dialogs, but the thing is people really do argue like that regularly. Especially in contexts where either the person is outright not at all interested in a discussion or has a short chance to grab attention of a handful of undecided viewers. Internet arguments (before devolving into "you're Neo-Hitler" level namecalling anyways) are an obvious example but you'll see it on news shows and in editorials too. People will bring up something that is undeniably tragic, demand their opponent respond, hoping they can either smugly act as if a "yes it is horrible" answer proves their position correct and if the person tries anything else immediately interrupt and paint them as a horrid person. This tactic also has the side benefit of keeping responsibility for making a statement on the person asked, so the asker doesn't have to actually put forward a position to fight in the first drat place. It's a fairly common tactic all around but especially in all sorts of movements that can be summed up with "I don't like (thing), it's bad, let's ban it." And people do fall for it. berryjon fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 01:30
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So no one is curious that the Spiders actually found a route to the surface no one else knows about? Something people have legitimately spent two games finding?
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Jun 13, 2016 02:11
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Kinfolk910 posted:So no one is curious that the Spiders actually found a route to the surface no one else knows about? Something people have legitimately spent two games finding? They don't really remember how. They have the memory and focus of... well, spiders.
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Jun 13, 2016 02:32
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Also they have mobility options that humans don't have. A two-foot-tall spider can crawl through a much smaller tunnel than a human could manage, and they can also go vertical much more easily. I think we can safely assume that there are air shafts connecting Exile to the surface, since otherwise everyone would asphyxiate; presumably the spiders just climbed one of those.
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Jun 13, 2016 02:42
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That or one of the Exile archmages, like Erika, teleported them up to annoy Art. You know she would.
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Jun 13, 2016 02:44
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Pretty much. They can walk up walls. Nice to see all of the anima and responses put together in one post too.
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Jun 13, 2016 02:44
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After so many games with them, I accept that the GIFTS are part of these games. But I often really dread the quests that require me to interact with them. However, I think both groups of happy, friendly gross bugs are done pretty well in this game. I like to imagine that the GIFTS getting out onto the surface is meant to convey both a sense of the scale of Exile - that, yes, there are many exits that were found and blocked off, but there's always more caves to explore - and a feeling that though they seem silly, maybe the GIFTS shouldn't be underestimated.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:09
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berryjon posted:
Apparently, to this day, fans of the series still can't decide whether this "puzzle" is amazing or horrible.
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Jun 13, 2016 05:02
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¿Por qué no los dos?
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Jun 13, 2016 05:06
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Sir Unimaginative posted:¿Por qué no los dos?  *Cue triumphant sounds of La Bamba*
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Jun 13, 2016 05:46
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I think the dead riach in the abandoned house is a Kafka reference.
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Jun 13, 2016 06:13
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LuffyVeggies posted:Apparently, to this day, fans of the series still can't decide whether this "puzzle" is amazing or horrible. This is the best puzzle. I was super young when I first played this and it stumped me for ages. I was going around and around talking to the spiders to try and figure out what Spider's name was. Eventually my Dad suggested I look at with the other Spiders were named.
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Jun 13, 2016 07:30
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| # ? May 16, 2024 04:49 |
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And our brave heroes lead a band of spiders in a pitched battle against the cockroaches. Seriously, everytime the GIFTS show up the story becomes amazing.
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Jun 13, 2016 10:23
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