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I'm biased by the first Avengers comics I read, which were the Kurt Busiek / Alan Davis ones where they fight a town of Hulks. So for me, the Avengers are a pretty big team, with Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Wasp, Hank Pym as Goliath, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Captain Marvel (Warbird, as she was then) as the core, with guys like Wonder Man, Triathlon, Jack of Hearts, Photon (Monica Rambeau), Justice and Firestar in rotating slots.
Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 18:02
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It's why I also don't really consider the other Avengers teams "lesser" (I mean, practically speaking they are, but I mean in-universe their jobs are just as important and crucial as whatever the main Avengers are doing). Because I view the Avengers less as a title with associated prestige and more of a job (and people change jobs all the time in the real world), the other Avengers teams are just there to address various issues that the main Avengers can't. Unlike the Teen/Titans, JLA, LOSH, Young Justice, etc - various B-teams that desperately want to be Justice Leaguers - across the pond, the differentiations in names are, to me, more reflective of their functions. So New Avengers are greener and deal with more ethically murky ideas that the main Avengers can't due to being the first line of defense, Secret Avengers get even grayer to the point of black ops poo poo, Uncanny has a lot of mutants on it and usually deals with mutant issues. Young Avengers deal with coming-of-age problems that are metatextualized as threats adults can't or won't see. That even extends to the teams that don't have the Avengers branding but mine as well be Avengers teams - Alpha Flight is basically the Space Avengers and A-Force usually addresses the fallout of SW 2015, reflecting their origins.
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Jun 12, 2016 18:02
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I would like to reiterate that any Avengers team that doesn't feature Jarvis is by definition a substandard Avengers team
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Jun 12, 2016 18:12
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I can definitely agree that The Avengers is fluid in a way that the Justice League isn't in my head. I can also agree that The Avengers roster being huge makes more sense than stuff like JLU. I dunno though, once we hit Avengers like Beast and Deadpool, I feel like something is lost. No strikes against those characters, it just doesn't feel the same. I go back and forth on Spider-Man.
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Jun 12, 2016 18:34
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I think I enjoy Beast more as a 1970s Avenger who dressed up like Tony Manero and was best friends with safari jacket Wonder Man than as an X-Man.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:04
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think I enjoy Beast more as a 1970s Avenger who dressed up like Tony Manero and was best friends with safari jacket Wonder Man than as an X-Man. As I said elsewhere, Beast was a fantastic character until about 2001 or so.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:16
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Rhyno posted:As I said elsewhere, Beast was a fantastic character until about 2001 or so. What happened and how was he good before that?
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Jun 12, 2016 19:18
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RareAcumen posted:What happened and how was he good before that? He was a happy, fun loving character who was rarely treated poorly by writers. Even after being replaced by the Dark Beast he still had a smile on his face at all times. Grant Morrison's change to the character seemed to be the start of his downward spiral as too many writers started writing him as gloomy or angry.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:22
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I think Hickman really drove the point home just how big the Avengers roster is in Infinity I think it was when Cap called up everybody and it like 40 people. But I would say off the top of my head my list would be Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Black Panther, Wasp, Hawkeye, Vision, and Captain Marvel. Personally I would have Hulk on there too, but admittedly he's more part-time than full.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:38
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Well the whole point of Hickman's run on Avengers was that Tony Stark convinces Steve Rogers to vastly expand the scope of the Avengers. Even when, yeah, the Avengers is literally dozens of people - and the idea of the Builder War is that they end up liberating all these planets who, in turn, become Avengers themselves, so eventually the Avengers number in the thousands - the whole concept of it was that it was this temporary conscription of people to handle a universal threat. Again, like a job.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:43
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Toxxupation posted:Well the whole point of Hickman's run on Avengers was that Tony Stark convinces Steve Rogers to vastly expand the scope of the Avengers. Even when, yeah, the Avengers is literally dozens of people - and the idea of the Builder War is that they end up liberating all these planets who, in turn, become Avengers themselves, so eventually the Avengers number in the thousands - the whole concept of it was that it was this temporary conscription of people to handle a universal threat. Again, like a job. I just meant that excluding the brand new characters like ex nihlo and Hyperion, the bench was already deep enough with inactive avengers that their numbers reached into the 40s-50s.
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Jun 12, 2016 19:55
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I grew up mostly reading West Coast Avengers rather than Avengers so my interpretation of the teams is skewed based on that. But an Avengers team always feels a bit empty to me unless it has Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, or Wonder Man. I know the last one is an odd choice, he's just a personal favorite though. Yes I'm the one guy that likes Wonder Man.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:05
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X-O posted:I grew up mostly reading West Coast Avengers rather than Avengers so my interpretation of the teams is skewed based on that. But an Avengers team always feels a bit empty to me unless it has Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, or Wonder Man. I know the last one is an odd choice, he's just a personal favorite though. Yes I'm the one guy that likes Wonder Man. I still own a complete run of his series and I was super hyped when Busiek brought him back in 1997. Simon's a great character when anyone but Bendis is writing him.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:08
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Rhyno posted:I still own a complete run of his series and I was super hyped when Busiek brought him back in 1997. Simon's a great character when anyone but Bendis is writing him. You mean the Gerard Jones series from the '90s? I loved that book at the time. Proof of Simon being awesome is that he can actually make Beast seem awesome when they're together.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:20
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Squizzle posted:For all that the Avengers are supposed to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", part of the team identity, to me, is the random-rear end assemblage of characters that can turn up as an Avengers roster. I don't have an iconic ideal line-up; it's more like like I'd be able to assign an Avengers Points value to every Marvel character, and as long as a roster hit some certain average Avengers Points rating per character, it would probably work just fine for me. "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" has always been a weird label. At one point, "Cap's Kooky Quartet" was Captain America, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch. (This was long before Wanda got crazy-powerful.) So that's a guy who was recently unfrozen from World War II, and three ex-villains.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:24
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Kieron Gillen's Beast in SWORD was pretty great for the 6 or 7 issues that book lasted.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:26
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X-O posted:You mean the Gerard Jones series from the '90s? I loved that book at the time. Yup, the 90's series was the best! The Beast/WW mini was a ton of fun too. I think only Busiek really found that balance of Hank and Simon.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:28
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Rhyno posted:Yup, the 90's series was the best! There's an issue of that A+X series with Wonder Man and Beast that is really good. I miss that series. It was a lot of fun. The Hawkeye/Deadpool issue was fantastic. Even the little arc with Cap/Cyclops was really good.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:31
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think I enjoy Beast more as a 1970s Avenger who dressed up like Tony Manero and was best friends with safari jacket Wonder Man than as an X-Man. If you don't love Wonder Man and Beast, you don't love life.  edit: Ha, they typoed right on the cover. 
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Jun 12, 2016 20:32
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I never really read Avengers until Disassembled, so I don't really have a strong idea of who should be Avengers. The movie roster is awfully close to what I see when I think about it though.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:33
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That cover just looks like Beast and Jocasta are going "gently caress this poo poo, we're going home"
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Jun 12, 2016 20:34
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X-O posted:There's an issue of that A+X series with Wonder Man and Beast that is really good. I miss that series. It was a lot of fun. The Hawkeye/Deadpool issue was fantastic. Even the little arc with Cap/Cyclops was really good. Cap/Cyc is a great pair in general. Two skinny dudes each thrust into leadership roles in their youth, against powerful forces of hatred and bigotry. Both have grown to become masters of soldiering and strategy, and lead the premiere superhero teams of their respective spheres. But one of the guys has always been an icon of American cultural values at their best, and the other has always been fighting against the worst in the culture. One has a body made perfect by his superpowers, the other is considered a biological freak because of his. Captain America has a shield of perfect defense, and Cyclops has punch-beams of unlimited force. They made a great close-counterpart contrast, and should appear together a lot more often, imo.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:51
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SonicRulez posted:When you think of The Avengers, who's on the team? I figure Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, Wasp, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch. You can take or leave Hulk and Vision. Thor, Iron Man, Captain America are considered the core for a reason. Hawkeye and Vision are mainstays, and I guess Wasp and/or Pym are usually around due to being founding members. Wonder Man was on the team for a loooong time, as were Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. Everyone else is a guest star in comparison. E: Oh yeah, Black Widow's a regular I suppose. Though she was never in any particularly memorable stories.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:54
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site posted:I think Hickman really drove the point home just how big the Avengers roster is in Infinity I think it was when Cap called up everybody and it like 40 people. Hahaha are you loving with me! 40's nothing. There was an issue where they activated every single member who'd ever been an Avenger and there were like over 60, and there were actually so goddamn many of them that they failed to stop Whirlwind from robbing a bank because they kept tripping over each other.
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Jun 12, 2016 20:59
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I like the expanded lineup Busiek deployed around Avengers #38 or so in 2000 I think. Cap, Thor, IM, Wasp, Triathalon, Hank Pym (whatever is ID was), Warbird, Hulk, Vision, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. And they had the satellite teams like BlackKnight and Firebird monitoring Bloodwraith, Jack of Hearts in the Savage Land and Quasar, Photon and Living Lightning in a deep space unit. I loved the idea of Avengers all over the place.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:06
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Nobody remembers that Sandman was briefly a reserve Avenger, before someone got a bug up their rear end about Sandman being a good guy now.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:07
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Lurdiak posted:Nobody remembers that Sandman was briefly a reserve Avenger, before someone got a bug up their rear end about Sandman being a good guy now. Was it Howard Mackie? Didn't he undo that?
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Jun 12, 2016 21:11
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I thought it was your archnemesis, Byrne, who did that, as part of his conviction that characters should always be exactly as they were when he first read them as a child, unless he had an idea he liked better.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:19
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Squizzle posted:I thought it was your archnemesis, Byrne, who did that, as part of his conviction that characters should always be exactly as they were when he first read them as a child, unless he had an idea he liked better. I honestly thought it was after Byrne left. Might have even been Paul Jenkins. I know Venom took a bite out of Sandman and that lead to it but that era of Spider-man is such a clusterfuck it's hard to keep it strait in my head.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:24
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X-O posted:I grew up mostly reading West Coast Avengers rather than Avengers so my interpretation of the teams is skewed based on that. But an Avengers team always feels a bit empty to me unless it has Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, or Wonder Man. I know the last one is an odd choice, he's just a personal favorite though. Yes I'm the one guy that likes Wonder Man. I actually really enjoy that the Avengers have their own Summers family tree with Hank, Jan, Ultron, Vision, Wonder Man, the Grim Reaper, Jocasta and to a lesser extent Wanda (who links it up with the actual Summers family tree, or did at the time). Rhyno posted:I like the expanded lineup Busiek deployed around Avengers #38 or so in 2000 I think. Cap, Thor, IM, Wasp, Triathalon, Hank Pym (whatever is ID was), Warbird, Hulk, Vision, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. And they had the satellite teams like BlackKnight and Firebird monitoring Bloodwraith, Jack of Hearts in the Savage Land and Quasar, Photon and Living Lightning in a deep space unit. I loved the idea of Avengers all over the place. Bloodwraith's still trapped in Slorenia, isn't he? Just like Imus Champion is probably still in jail plotting his revenge on the team. It's always seemed odd to me how his run ends with this one-off story where the Avengers, who have just finished their biggest story ever to that point by defeating Kang after he conquered the entire world, are presenting the after-action report detailing a battle with the Elements of Doom. Not a bad issue - probably trying to do something similar to Grant Morrison's run on JLA, which had a similar "and the adventure continues" ending, but it was a bit underwhelming. Busiek's tenure as writer is a really good "greatest hits" run for the Avengers; it's got everything. It's got an Avenger court-martial (twice), it's got the team coming into conflict with the government/the media, it's got an Ultron story, it's got a Kang story, it fixes Hank Pym (again). The only thing it doesn't have is a Masters of Evil story, but it does have a Thunderbolts crossover. Rhyno posted:I honestly thought it was after Byrne left. Might have even been Paul Jenkins. I know Venom took a bite out of Sandman and that lead to it but that era of Spider-man is such a clusterfuck it's hard to keep it strait in my head. Nah, he was a bad guy again before Venom took a bite out of him; he'd tried to reform the Sinister Six and kill Doc Ock (it tied into the whole Senator Ward storyline) and Venom tried to join, but they had a falling out which led to Venom going after them and trying to kill them all. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 21:33
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The T-Bolts went up against the new MoE over in their own book which was also by Busiek so he did scratch that itch. He even had Hercules come gunning for Atlas. Why the hell is there no Thunderbolts Omnibus?
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Jun 12, 2016 21:36
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They're doing new "Hawkeye & Thunderbolts" trades which pick up where the Thunderbolts Classics ones left off, but I'm pretty sure those Classics trades are on their way out of print now. I wish they'd do a New Warriors, Vol. 2 omnibus, but it's probably never gonna happen.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:38
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Two of the four T-Bolts Classics are out of print, Vol.1 just got reissued so maybe they're going to do the other two. I'd still rather have two nice HCs of the first 50 issues on my shelf.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:42
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I wish they'd put up New Warriors and Thunderbolts in full on Marvel Unlimited. That and about a dozen other '80s and '90s series that have almost no chance of happening (Darkhawk, Quasar, Silver Surfer, Cloak and Dagger, Sleepwalker, Marvel Comics Presents, Warlock and the Infinity Watch).
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Jun 12, 2016 21:53
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There's Infinity Watch trades coming out - I think the first one might be already.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:05
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prefect posted:If you don't love Wonder Man and Beast, you don't love life. I immediately redact my previous Beast slander.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:06
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Wheat Loaf posted:There's Infinity Watch trades coming out - I think the first one might be already. There's about a dozen from the 40 issue run on MU. For most stuff these days I'd prefer not to get trades. I've phased out singles completely in favor of digital and am starting to move that way for trade as well with the exception of the stuff I really love.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:13
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Just read through all 27 issues, and two of the tree spinoffs of Planetary in two sittings. What should I read next if I'm looking for something similar in scope and intertwining, solid storytelling? I love how it felt like one solid piece and not like Ellis was making it up as he went along. I want to find more comics that build and build like that with all the callbacks and foreshadowing.Rhyno posted:The first 12 issues of the Authority are pretty fantastic and among the best things Ellis has written. Yeah, I thought of doing that next. I saved the Authority/Planetary crossover until I've read some of that. I'm revisiting some Transmet right now, but I'll probably jump into The Authority next, thanks for the rec. You specifically mention the first twelve issues, does it drop in quality after that? Unmature fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 23:31
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Unmature posted:Just read through all 27 issues, and two of the tree spinoffs of Planetary in two sittings. What should I read next if I'm looking for something similar in scope and intertwining, solid storytelling? I love how it felt like one solid piece and not like Ellis was making it up as he went along. I want to find more comics that build and build like that with all the callbacks and foreshadowing. The first 12 issues of the Authority are pretty fantastic and among the best things Ellis has written.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:38
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Bone, Preacher, Transmet, anything Hickman has ever written (Fantastic Four comes to mind as an obvious companion to Planetary).
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Jun 12, 2016 23:45
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