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In Brogue, do I want my armor class to be a lower or higher number?
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Jun 15, 2016 18:53
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Higher, though stealth being lower is better and it's hard to get both high armor+low stealth range
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Jun 15, 2016 18:59
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Lazy devtalk: Movement speed. I've been meaning to do this as part of a longer  post on action economy in roguelikes, but gently caress it, I'm lazy so let's do the short one.In most roguelikes, you get to move one space per turn. Why one? Why not two or three? Why not have player movement speed be a variable, some classes/specs/skills let you go slower, some faster. Some skills speed your movement for a few rounds, some debuffs slow you a few rounds. Most roguelikes, getting 'slowed' tanks your total action point/speed stat gain, so it's a death sentence, not just a movement debuff that impairs your tactical mobility. If there is anything that affects movement only, it's usually a paralyze/freeze/stun that locks you in place, also loving you over pretty hard. One space per turn severely limits tactical possibilities, and it's another reason that hug-the-hallway is so popular, because in open spaces, one of your moves can be met with 2, 5, or 10 enemy moves in the same 'time'. (obviously, this is where the action economy comes in, because +speed is almost invariably one of the most powerful items a player can get in any roguelike, but I'll skip that part  )A lot of SRPGS always let the player have a generous movement allowance, but those games are usually you managing a group of heroes vs a group of enemies, rather than the typical one-vs-many setup in most roguelikes (hi Demon). But I can't think of many roguelikes that use player movement speed as a typical player stat, and I'm not real sure why. I've become increasingly fond of roguelikes that have common movement abilities for the player - skills that let you move and attack, jump and attack, teleport and attack, attack and move, etcetc. The increased tactical freedom is both more interesting, and enables viable combat tactics that are dangerous or impossible without them.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:54
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Weedle posted:In Brogue, do I want my armor class to be a lower or higher number? I think pretty much everything other than Nethack goes by the "more armor is more better" system instead of that godawful AD&D thac0 thing.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:54
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I think a bunch of roguelikes use time units for movement that don't correspond 1:1 with movement. DCSS does for sure.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:00
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victrix posted:Lazy devtalk: Movement speed. The real reason you hug the hallway is basic Thermopylae poo poo - you want to reduce the number of enemies that can reach you at once, since most enemies can only attack you while adjacent. If you enabled me to move four spaces in the time it would take to make one attack, I still wouldn't be wading into the room unless it was to dash to more cover. You need to disrupt that paradigm first. Depths of Tolagal actually has a really fantastic tactical system, although the game is a bit simple-and-hard besides that.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:00
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LordSaturn posted:The real reason you hug the hallway is basic Thermopylae poo poo - you want to reduce the number of enemies that can reach you at once, since most enemies can only attack you while adjacent. If you enabled me to move four spaces in the time it would take to make one attack, I still wouldn't be wading into the room unless it was to dash to more cover. You need to disrupt that paradigm first. Right, that's why I said 'another' reason, there's plenty of others But it's just yet one more reason that being out in the open is a Bad Idea in most (not all) roguelikes.If you could move two spaces, attack, and move two more spaces, it might. Or if you could move four and attack, or attack and move four - there's lots of possibilities that haven't been touched in most roguelikes I can think of. (again why I really like skills/abilities/spells that have movement baked into their single turn action)
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Jun 15, 2016 20:02
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IronicDongz posted:Higher, though stealth being lower is better and it's hard to get both high armor+low stealth range RPATDO_LAMD posted:I think pretty much everything other than Nethack goes by the "more armor is more better" system instead of that godawful AD&D thac0 thing. Thanks!
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Jun 15, 2016 20:08
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victrix posted:Right, that's why I said 'another' reason, there's plenty of others I'm guessing part of it is because traditionally the monsters follow the same (or at least very similar) rules as the player (I think this is one of the berlin interpretation components of a roguelike), and a 1:1 movement & attack system is a lot easier to implement from the monster's side of things.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:11
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The "one step per action" mechanic is a necessary consequence of all player actions using an interchangeable time/energy currency. Games like tabletop D&D or Fire Emblem work by making movement actions and attack/other actions two distinct currencies that can sometimes be exchanged in a limited fashion; it lets you do more in a turn, but at the expense of not having to choose between as many mutually exclusive options. That said, I wouldn't be unhappy to see more games take after Fallout 1 and 2 and make this an explicit mechanic instead of hiding it from the player.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:52
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I haven't played in years, but ToME had both movement speed and global speed (which were multiplicatively ridiculous for a time). This played out as increased movement speed making moves cost less of a turn, which, at the least, had some really fun interactions with projectile speeds. Iirc, the Cursed class had a free toggle skill that increased movement speed, so they would run around fireballs and the like, while Brawlers had a skill that reduced the speed of projectiles targeting you; I can't remember if they sped back up once you were entirely out of their path, or if they were permanently slowed. Anyways, that's only a couple of the nifty things ToME does with movement speed. There's probably way more in there now, but someone else'll have to talk about it.
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Jun 15, 2016 23:32
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Doing the Charred Scar in a single turn is still my favourite memory of that game. That character's name was Scandinavian Death Metal and he was glorious. The Adventurer class enabled some pretty crazy poo poo wrt speed shenanigans, since you could choose any combination of skill categories you wanted. You'd end up with mindstar-wielding Cursed Solipsist Archmage Yeeks who could outrun basically any non-instant projectile in the game, then use rogue/time mage wonkery to put enemies in the paths of their own projectiles.
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Jun 16, 2016 00:33
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victrix posted:Lazy devtalk: Movement speed. I think granularity is the issue: in a world of grids, why have a turn move you 4 steps, when you can have them take 4 min-turns that each take one step, letting the player see how the world adjusts after each 1/4 turn. All RLs that that have varied-speed actions have, by definition, an internal time clock that handles the delay each actor gets before their next action. For a single-@ RL, updating the world as often as possible (after each step, even if this step is 'fast' due to running or whatnot) gives the most concise feedback. You mentioned team games; Renown explorers does exactly what you mentioned, but all turns have been homogenized into a move&attack with no granularity. Final Fantasy tactics and co. get to have multi-tile movement with variable-delayed actions, but the cost of it was a huge mess of the 'delay queue', a kind of obscured mechanic/menu that listed who was getting their turn next. Not the best feedback on what the consequences of your actions are. As an aside, having move speed and action speed tied together is a holdover from the darken days. There's literally no compulsion for new RLs to follow.
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Jun 16, 2016 00:39
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Roguelikes with different move speeds do generally do it by having moves cost less of a turn, but I don't think I've seen any where it was quite as extreme as "4 moves takes the same time as 1 attack". At least not in normal situations, although you can still get stuff like ToME Cursed with movement infusions that gets to (temporarily!) move 30 squares in a turn.
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Jun 16, 2016 00:58
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The only problem with Tome's speed in general is that once you get to the point where you're fast enough to significantly alter turn order, there's not a lot of easy ways to quickly check 'okay, is that monster going to have an action the next time I move or not?'. Given that fast movement speed is one of the few available escape options for certain builds, and given that Tome tends to deal with damage spikes, that can be very life or death.
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Jun 16, 2016 01:49
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Roguelikes with different move speeds do generally do it by having moves cost less of a turn, but I don't think I've seen any where it was quite as extreme as "4 moves takes the same time as 1 attack". At least not in normal situations, although you can still get stuff like ToME Cursed with movement infusions that gets to (temporarily!) move 30 squares in a turn. @victrix: Like RPATDO_LAMD says, A number of roguelikes offer movement options that are not 1:1, it's just not as apparent since those numbers are usually hidden. Cogmind is one of the more extreme examples, though. Most roguelikes with variable movement tend to keep it within a few moves, otherwise it throws off the balance when the world isn't explicitly designed for it.
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Jun 16, 2016 02:52
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StrixNebulosa posted:I absolutely love it when games have books in them that actually have some writing to them, as finding lore in games is my favorite part. That sounds like my character currently as he rains death on pygmies from above. I just finished up the side quest where you have to find and kill mamon..I kinda ended up cheesing it by throwing a freeze grenade and then bleeding him to death with my rifle skills. In one of the buildings at the end of this I ended up finding 4 very high end (to me at least) weapons, though I'm not sure if it was luck, or if that particular spot has a high chance of generating them. For those wondering what they were I ended up with a missile launcher, auto pistol, sniper rifle and laser rifle and had found a flamethrower earlier which I disassembled and managed to luck out and get the recipe for. The story for said quest and the general 'show don't tell' nature of it was pretty great too. Furthest I've gotten in Qud too, ever since I abandoned the idea of quad wielding with four arms pretending to be goro.
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Jun 16, 2016 12:26
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Is there a Qud offline utility that I can just doodle around in and make up different builds without booting up the game?
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Jun 16, 2016 14:09
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So with no game development experience whatsoever I decided I'd take an eight hour work day and try to write as much of a roguelike as I could. Kinda neat how many resources were out there to get started, downloaded a free sprite set, used a dungeon generation library from github then threw the whole thing inside Phaser then threw that inside Electron. https://www.dropbox.com/s/2w1072dmm7m4x9k/roguelike-thing-v1.0.0-win32-x64.exe?dl=0 Mashing the button changes the biome, your character, and the type of dungeon. It's not very close to a finished game, but as a thought experiment it's interesting, and if I ever actually had the time maybe I could try 7DRL in the future, although I don't have any interesting ideas or mechanics to explore so does the world need another derivative dungeon crawler. drink_bleach fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 22:48
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I think even gameplay prototypes have value if they're exploring interesting design space. A lot of the current big popular roguelikes have gameplay traditions that I think are obsolete, poorly thought out, not thought out at all, or just plain unfun. More than one really cool roguelike has come from a 7drl attempt, or even just a small proof of concept un-game. So yes, the world always needs another dungeon crawler 
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Jun 17, 2016 23:02
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After tooling around and toying a whole bunch, Godsrune just had another major evolution. It is now, among other things, a Tactical Zelda-Inspired Roguelike. Combat takes place in fairly compact spaces, where facing matters and every enemy has a consistent pattern and gimmick. So, Zelda as raised by Hoplite, I guess.
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Jun 18, 2016 02:01
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LordSaturn posted:The real reason you hug the hallway is basic Thermopylae poo poo - you want to reduce the number of enemies that can reach you at once, since most enemies can only attack you while adjacent. If you enabled me to move four spaces in the time it would take to make one attack, I still wouldn't be wading into the room unless it was to dash to more cover. You need to disrupt that paradigm first. Sil does a good job of this. You're often better off engaging a squad of orcs in a large room rather than trying to fight them one at a time in a hallway. Not always, though.
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Jun 18, 2016 02:17
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Several years ago, I remember reading about a roguelike game where your ultimate objective was to prepare your barbarian camp/village/what have you for some final assault from the forces of evil, and you had to balance actually going out and kicking butt in the field with prepwork at home in order to be ready to survive the endgame. Anybody have an idea what I'm vaguely recalling? Also, suggestions for a roguelike that's (a) got some story to it and (b) has a relatively low 'goofy poo poo' level? I mean, it doesn't have to be a humorless wall of grimdark, but something that's not a relentless wall of pop culture references and/or 'lol so wacky' would be nice.
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Jun 18, 2016 08:15
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Wrt your second question I am really enjoying renound explorers
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Jun 18, 2016 08:20
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FredMSloniker posted:Several years ago, I remember reading about a roguelike game where your ultimate objective was to prepare your barbarian camp/village/what have you for some final assault from the forces of evil, and you had to balance actually going out and kicking butt in the field with prepwork at home in order to be ready to survive the endgame. Anybody have an idea what I'm vaguely recalling? First question: Din's Curse kind of comes to mind, although it's not exactly what you're asking for. Second question: Caves of Qud has outstanding writing and the main quest counts as plot! Also: Cogmind has lore that you can dig out, relating to the situation of the sci-fi complex you're escaping from - and you can find NPCs in some branches who will expand on said lore.
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Jun 18, 2016 08:37
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StrixNebulosa posted:First question: Din's Curse kind of comes to mind, although it's not exactly what you're asking for. Depths of Peril, an earlier game from the same developer is closer. Barbarian town populated with several clans with whom you could engage in 4X style diplomacy, ultimate goal to be the last clan standing, so you go out adventuring to get strong enough to to take the others on. Din's Curse did away with the clan conflict and amped up the generated quests with consequences angle (fail to deal with a threat for long enough and everyone in the town gets murdered, including the quest givers). He's got a new one in early access about a fantasy zombie apocalypse that I haven't tried yet. These are all ARPGs though, not proper roguelikes.
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Jun 18, 2016 17:53
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FredMSloniker posted:Several years ago, I remember reading about a roguelike game where your ultimate objective was to prepare your barbarian camp/village/what have you for some final assault from the forces of evil, and you had to balance actually going out and kicking butt in the field with prepwork at home in order to be ready to survive the endgame. Anybody have an idea what I'm vaguely recalling? Thea: The Awakening
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Jun 18, 2016 21:02
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Stelas posted:The only problem with Tome's speed in general is that once you get to the point where you're fast enough to significantly alter turn order, there's not a lot of easy ways to quickly check 'okay, is that monster going to have an action the next time I move or not?'. Given that fast movement speed is one of the few available escape options for certain builds, and given that Tome tends to deal with damage spikes, that can be very life or death. Final Fantasy X handled this really elegantly with the turn order indicator on the right of the screen that would preview the next ~10 entities to get an action. I've always wanted more turn based games to incorporate that neat bit of UI.
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Jun 18, 2016 22:15
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Eela6 posted:Final Fantasy X handled this really elegantly with the turn order indicator on the right of the screen that would preview the next ~10 entities to get an action. The Grandia series has probably the best smooth turn-based combat system in a JRPG. 3's is the best (shame about the rest of the game though) but they are all great for it with varying degrees of balance. Visible time bar, distinction between waiting to decide and waiting to act, cancel abilities, everything.
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Jun 19, 2016 13:19
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Duskers is fun, even when I'm spacing my drones with a badly timed command.
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Jun 19, 2016 14:56
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Eela6 posted:Final Fantasy X handled this really elegantly with the turn order indicator on the right of the screen that would preview the next ~10 entities to get an action. Your in luck then! There is a great plug-in for RPG Maker that adds this exact battle type. I have been using it quite a bit in my JRPG/Rogue-like hybrid game. Like you said it is a really good system for tactical turn based combat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNMhNob7vSU
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Jun 19, 2016 16:53
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Long term opinions on Invisible Inc.? I'm sure it's a good game, but I'm kind of in the mood for a great game.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:56
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Rutibex posted:Your in luck then! There is a great plug-in for RPG Maker that adds this exact battle type. I have been using it quite a bit in my JRPG/Rogue-like hybrid game. Like you said it is a really good system for tactical turn based combat: Neat! Thank you for pointing me in this direction. doctorfrog posted:Long term opinions on Invisible Inc.? I'm sure it's a good game, but I'm kind of in the mood for a great game. I think Invisible Inc. is amazing. It has a clarity & purity of design that reminds me of doomRL. The content runs thin a little faster than I would like, but it is 100% worth your time and money. FWIW, I have never seen a turn-based game handle stealth as elegantly. Eela6 fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 17:58
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doctorfrog posted:Long term opinions on Invisible Inc.? I'm sure it's a good game, but I'm kind of in the mood for a great game. it is a great game.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:04
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doctorfrog posted:Long term opinions on Invisible Inc.? I'm sure it's a good game, but I'm kind of in the mood for a great game. A goon wrote up a super enthusiastic post about it a couple months back (or longer). Convinced me to pick it up. I thought it was enjoyable. I should go finish it. Might be worth looking for his review. It's in this thread...somewhere. Edit: didn't realize what thread I was in! The review is in the Steam thread. Lowness 72 fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 18:08
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Invisible Inc is great -- no game has captured the feeling of a stealthy cyberpunk heist as effectively, and that includes the fact that you're aware you're never more than one mistake away from everything going to pot, and that includes everything going to pot and still being able to pull a win out of your exquisitely maintained cyber-rear end. It's one of my favorite turn based strategy games ever.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:16
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doctorfrog posted:Long term opinions on Invisible Inc.? I'm sure it's a good game, but I'm kind of in the mood for a great game. I found it rather excellent. In fact, should get back to it for a new run, with the DLC in the mix.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:23
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I thought the game was brilliant. But for some reason I can't push myself to start another run after my win - it just seems like so much effort. Same with Renown Explorers. FTL, otoh, I have banked hundreds of hours. I'm not sure why there's a difference =/
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Jun 19, 2016 18:30
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Serephina posted:Same with Renown Explorers. You're the second person to call it that recently. Google suggests it's Renowned Explorers. Is that correct, or is there a different game I should be looking at?
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Jun 19, 2016 18:58
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no thats the one
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Jun 19, 2016 19:00
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