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If you want battles to last longer, play on slow motion.  Really I don't see improving leadership to be reasonable at all. The point of leadership is that it makes victories significant. If you play well and rout a force, you should be able to kill lots of them with relatively little loss. If everything stands and fights, battles become attritional, and both sides take relatively equal losses. Winning a big battle just therefore lacks impact. Then you add on larger numbers of armies so that you are fighting more battles.... The end effect is to make stuff a pointless slog.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:40
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Zephro posted:The AI is dumb because it's a few lines of code that doesn't understand anything about what it's doing. If you remove the various cheats that try to help it compensate for the fact that it literally cannot think, I expect the AI will appear to be even dumber than usual. But every other faction knows to go into raid mode to deal with attrition. And I've seen dwarves use tunneling to avoid it as well. It does seem proper orky though to just March your dudes through death swamps.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:41
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The best thing about Radious total conversion mod in Shogun 2 was that he divided the mod in smaller parts and people could install whatever part they were more interested in, like in my case, I've only used his tech tree and research speed mod, and it was pretty good, didn't care for the rest.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:42
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Fangz posted:Really I don't see improving leadership to be reasonable at all. The point of leadership is that it makes victories significant. If you play well and rout a force, you should be able to kill lots of them with relatively little loss. this can still be done with higher leadership the time to route is a bit higher, the possibility of routing is a bit harder but still happens
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Jun 16, 2016 11:43
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Fangz posted:About twenty turns into a Hard Chaos campaign. Here's a thought: has anyone considered simply ignoring the Norscans? They might not like you initially but they also hate the Empire. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to, after the initial bearonling stuff, cut across Kislev and go along the northern/western coast of the Empire? Eventually as you continue to attack the Empire, Enemy of My Enemy rules will apply and they will militarily ally. Even if they don't like you, they will still fight, and the Empire is closest. I've found you kinda want some favour/horde development/lord levels before heading through Kislev, and the easiest way to get that is through the early Varg settlements. You can totally farm some easy disposition with the Norscans by chain sacking the northern dwarves though. On my hard campaign I sacked the dwarves untill the Skaeling would agree to a peace treaty, then build up hordes/heroes through the Varg settlements. It really cut down on the amount of time wasted in Norsca, hit Kislev around turn 50 and once you start sacking them the Skaeling pretty much start loving you.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:46
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So it was the Radious mod, I'm not sure what exactly but after starting a vanilla game I'm steamrolling where I was having issues before. Bizarre.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:49
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And when I say radious added higher leadership and people are not happy about that, I mean a swordsman in the empire went from 60 to 65 while a spearman of the empire went from 60 to 60. This is what breaks the game for them.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:52
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Verranicus posted:So it was the Radious mod, I'm not sure what exactly but after starting a vanilla game I'm steamrolling where I was having issues before. Bizarre. Radious mod apparently gives extra bonuses to the AI on harder difficulties, so that's quite probably part of it.
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Jun 16, 2016 11:57
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Third World Reggin posted:And when I say radious added higher leadership and people are not happy about that, I mean a swordsman in the empire went from 60 to 65 while a spearman of the empire went from 60 to 60. You were *just saying* that the Radious morale changes double or treble the length of battles (which implies they do even more than that to the amount of time units spend slugging it out at each other, and hence the amount of damage a winning army takes). Now you're arguing they don't make a difference? That doesn't seem terribly consistent. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 12:00
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Third World Reggin posted:And when I say radious added higher leadership and people are not happy about that, I mean a swordsman in the empire went from 60 to 65 while a spearman of the empire went from 60 to 60. What a fine example, swordsmen really need another extra boost over spearmen to differentiate them.
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Jun 16, 2016 12:01
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Fangz posted:About twenty turns into a Hard Chaos campaign. Here's a thought: has anyone considered simply ignoring the Norscans? They might not like you initially but they also hate the Empire. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to, after the initial bearonling stuff, cut across Kislev and go along the northern/western coast of the Empire? Eventually as you continue to attack the Empire, Enemy of My Enemy rules will apply and they will militarily ally. Even if they don't like you, they will still fight, and the Empire is closest. In my experience trying to ignore the norscans results in eventually having at least one norscan stack chasing a horde of yours around to the exclusion of all else, which can result in a death spiral where you wind up not being quite strong enough to fight them but because you have to constantly run you're never able to replenish or recruit so you can never get strong enough to fight them etc. Also it's a huge pain in the rear end. Most of all, if you treat them like equals they'll start thinking they're people and talk down to you.
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Jun 16, 2016 12:07
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Gitro posted:In my experience trying to ignore the norscans results in eventually having at least one norscan stack chasing a horde of yours around to the exclusion of all else, which can result in a death spiral where you wind up not being quite strong enough to fight them but because you have to constantly run you're never able to replenish or recruit so you can never get strong enough to fight them etc. Also it's a huge pain in the rear end. Well, this is why I'm thinking to go down the coast instead of going into Nordland etc. Put the Empire between me and them. Doing some sacking of Kislev early does work, FWIW. Maybe not Kislev itself, but lots of the northern settlements are poorly defended, and can be pushed over quickly (especially as Sigvald, since you don't have to siege). Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 12:10
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Third World Reggin posted:And when I say radious added higher leadership and people are not happy about that, I mean a swordsman in the empire went from 60 to 65 while a spearman of the empire went from 60 to 60. Which is a dumb and stupid change. Why is a man with a sword and shield braver than a dude with a sword and shield? I'm already not a fan of the fact they changed halbardiers from the table top from being another variation on normal dudes to somehow better and more expensive (in the TT they all cost the same if you buy shields and it's basically a trade off of more defence (swordsmen), more models in combat range (spearmen), or more damage (halberds)). It just seems like one of those mods changing stuff for changing stuff sake, or to nerf fundamental parts of the game which he doesn't like.
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Jun 16, 2016 12:11
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Fangz posted:If you want battles to last longer, play on slow motion. Zephro fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 12:19
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Fangz posted:Well, this is why I'm thinking to go down the coast instead of going into Nordland etc. Put the Empire between me and them. Doesn't solve them problem of treating them like people Yeah, I like to dip through Kislev while romping around the north in my chaos games. Unfortunately this is how some dumb as poo poo chases started.
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Jun 16, 2016 12:26
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Fangz posted:Well, this is why I'm thinking to go down the coast instead of going into Nordland etc. Put the Empire between me and them. I've noticed the AI has some tendencies to ignore NPCs at times and bee-line for your armies and cities. I think that's one reason that chaos often gets killed too quickly. In my current greenskin campaign most of their stacks just charged straight through to the badlands and only really attacked things that were on the way to me. By the time they got to me, they were damaged enough that I'm having no problem wiping them out (well, except that the game crashed last night right as I was winning a major battle against them... grrrr).
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Jun 16, 2016 12:31
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Verranicus posted:So it was the Radious mod, I'm not sure what exactly but after starting a vanilla game I'm steamrolling where I was having issues before. Bizarre. I found the Radious early game to be significantly harder for a lot of factions. You have an enormous amount of income relative to vanilla, but you still have the same number of recruitment slots to work with and the game now expects you to maintain twice to three times as many armies. It's really easy to get jammed up and overwhelmed in the early game because enemies will all be rolling around with two or three stacks in a pile but your recruitment speed isn't really increased over vanilla until you take a couple of provinces and can put that income to work. That, coupled with the meatgrindery nature of Radious battles, means that units tend to get ground into hamburger and need replacement rather than replenishment far more. Kitchner posted:I'm already not a fan of the fact they changed halbardiers from the table top from being another variation on normal dudes to somehow better and more expensive (in the TT they all cost the same if you buy shields and it's basically a trade off of more defence (swordsmen), more models in combat range (spearmen), or more damage (halberds)). Halberdiers cost more because armor piercing and anti-large are both extremely valuable and useful traits that would be explicitly too strong on ultra cheap units; heavy armor and large size are typically traits reserved for expensive elite units, so hard countering expensive elites with a first tier unit would be kind of dumb. As it is they're not really any stronger than swordsmen or spearmen except against their intended targets(armored large guys) and die significantly faster than swordsmen or shielded spearmen against anyone with missile weapons, so I feel they nailed the "halberdiers are just another kind of state troop" feel pretty well without making them the de facto spam unit.
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Jun 16, 2016 12:51
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Kanos posted:
I wouldn't have given the halbardiers armour piercing, just extra weapon damage. The anti-large thing I don't think matters too much as spearmen also have anti-large so I don't buy that's a factor. On the TT they did "pierce" armour but anyone with strength 4 or more pierced armour to a degree, so they don't need it for fluff reasons, Orc Boyz were strength 4 and pierced armour exactly the same and they aren't armour piercing (for example). I'm actually not as bothered about the cost, more bothered about the fact they need a blacksmith or whatever to make them. I can't think of another unit that requires two buildings to create and is a relative weak as halbardiers without some sort of gimmick.
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Jun 16, 2016 13:23
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Having the AP anti large is pretty huge when you are fighting a bunch of stuff. VC and their fast monsters especially.
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Jun 16, 2016 13:26
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Halberds make sense as armor-piercers considering they're a mix of pole-axe, hammer, and spear. The only thing keeping me from finishing my Dwarf Long Campaign is the Powder-Keg Grudge to get an engineer to level 15. Thankfully my first engineer was already at 10 when it dropped so chain-sacking a few Norscan settlements should do it. Just gotta make sure hell doesn't break loose as the relationships built up during the Chaos invasion deteriorate.
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Jun 16, 2016 13:38
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Triskelli posted:Halberds make sense as armor-piercers considering they're a mix of pole-axe, hammer, and spear. I almost lost a nearly done dwarf campaign because the one banshee I couldn't deal with got to my army ONCE and critical success murdered my level 13 engineer, fortunately another battle took place and gave me time to quit right the gently caress out and reload the last autosave before it happened, because gently caress THAT.
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Jun 16, 2016 13:45
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John Charity Spring posted:At least on SA, I think only a small minority of people talk up Radious. While technically true, "a small minority" still implies an actual group, which is probably a bit generous. I've seen a grand total of two people post favourably about it. Each of them has posted about it several times, so it's understandable you might think there were more.
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Jun 16, 2016 13:59
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Fangz posted:About twenty turns into a Hard Chaos campaign. Here's a thought: has anyone considered simply ignoring the Norscans? They might not like you initially but they also hate the Empire. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to, after the initial bearonling stuff, cut across Kislev and go along the northern/western coast of the Empire? Eventually as you continue to attack the Empire, Enemy of My Enemy rules will apply and they will militarily ally. Even if they don't like you, they will still fight, and the Empire is closest. This was my thought as well. It seems like when you raze everything and start over with vassalized tribes they're lucky to have a few settlements between themselves by turn 100, but if you just let Varg and Skaeling do their thing they're the terror of the Old World. Is it really important if they're allied to you? Not awakening and subjugating everyone would save a lot of time, too.
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Jun 16, 2016 14:00
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Is there a reason my Karl Franz stack shouldn't just be 10 demiknights and 10 steam tanks because Jesus these units own
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Jun 16, 2016 14:35
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Is there a reason my Karl Franz stack shouldn't just be 10 demiknights and 10 steam tanks because Jesus these units own Upkeep and efficiency, you can probably steamroll any army with half these units and put the other half in another stack, you will be able to cover more terrain.
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Jun 16, 2016 14:38
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drat Dirty Ape posted:I've noticed the AI has some tendencies to ignore NPCs at times and bee-line for your armies and cities. That's an AI pattern factions spawn in with. There are avoid_player and anti_player behaviour modifiers designed to make certain factions go easy on the player at their starting position and others more likely to war them. If you turn off all of the avoid_player ones by changing their behavior profile to be the same as normal the game becomes harder and I imagine if you changed everything to have anti_player it'd be harder still.
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Jun 16, 2016 15:00
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By turn 70 I had conquered the entire north, awakened pretty much every tribe (at least the ones I found) and subjugated both the varg and the skaeling. I'm currently hitting the empire, nordland, middenland and marienburg are wiped out. The empire is on its last legs, Hochland is about to fall, Kislev is down to just Kislev. Chaos was a lot easier than I thought.
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Jun 16, 2016 15:01
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I'm surprised they didn't add an army painting/customization feature in the game. Seems like it would be really obvious given the nature of Warhammer.
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Jun 16, 2016 15:05
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Decus posted:That's an AI pattern factions spawn in with. There are avoid_player and anti_player behaviour modifiers designed to make certain factions go easy on the player at their starting position and others more likely to war them. If you turn off all of the avoid_player ones by changing their behavior profile to be the same as normal the game becomes harder and I imagine if you changed everything to have anti_player it'd be harder still. Huh, is this randomised, or preset?
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Jun 16, 2016 15:05
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I havent tried radious, but the games battle component is too quick. A major battle between factions should last longer than six minutes (the longest battle I've ever fought). CA, I'm guessing, made this change to speed the game up to appeal to *GASP* casual players. If for no other reason than the battle engine is freaking gorgeous, battles should last longer. Rome 2 ended up being a bit long, Shogun 2 was great, Attila was pretty good. And from what I've gathered, MP is a complete mess, which speaks to poor battle engine balance. Rush shouldn't be the default and most widely successful strategy!
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Jun 16, 2016 16:03
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Are you basically playing without pausing at all?
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Jun 16, 2016 16:12
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I just had half the factions cancel non aggression pacts with me in a single turn but the diplomacy screen doesn't show me having done anything to offend them. Any idea what gives?
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Jun 16, 2016 16:16
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Did you lose an army or two? The AI changes behavior - sometimes drastically - if it becomes stronger or weaker than you.
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Jun 16, 2016 16:18
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Ammanas posted:And from what I've gathered, MP is a complete mess, which speaks to poor battle engine balance. Rush shouldn't be the default and most widely successful strategy! Rush is only the "default" behavior in MP because VC are a bit overpowered at the moment, and anyone fighting them can't take the same kind of army that they would deploy against others. I've been very successful in MP with an Empire list that is heavy on ranged firepower (both guns and cannons) that absolutely does not want the lines to clash as quickly as possible. It usable against everything other than VC because VC are over-tuned and require you to counter build them. Honestly you can solve 90% of problems with MP in an instant if you follow the rules "don't play against VC" and "auto-quit if the opponent brought less than 300 men".
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Jun 16, 2016 16:20
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Chomp8645 posted:Rush is only the "default" behavior in MP because VC are a bit overpowered at the moment, and anyone fighting them can't take the same kind of army that they would deploy against others. I've been very successful in MP with an Empire list that is heavy on ranged firepower (both guns and cannons) that absolutely does not want the lines to clash as quickly as possible. It usable against everything other than VC because VC are over-tuned and require you to counter build them. Is it all on the back of spirit leech and lord sniping or is it a more complex build?
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Jun 16, 2016 16:47
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Mazz posted:Is it all on the back of spirit leech and lord sniping or is it a more complex build? Empire can snipe with Light Wizards and Witch Hunters, while Orcs can with Azhag so no it's not true. Crypt Horrors are pretty darn good for VC, but commander sniping them is far more deadly. Orcs and Empire are the two best empires right now, Empire way ahead due to Demigryphs, though Black Orcs are well 'ard.
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Jun 16, 2016 16:50
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How are you supposed to get an economy off the ground for vampire counts? No one wants to trade and your economy buildings are poo poo. I'm aware you can stack banshees/ necromancer but that's boring and also takes too long
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Jun 16, 2016 16:52
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Fans posted:Empire can snipe with Light Wizards and Witch Hunters, while Orcs can with Azhag so no it's not true. Crypt Horrors are pretty darn good for VC, but commander sniping them is far more deadly. Are you talking MP or SP because they are very different beasts. I don't care about SP balance because the answer is always spend more. terrorist ambulance posted:How are you supposed to get an economy off the ground for vampire counts? No one wants to trade and your economy buildings are poo poo. I'm aware you can stack banshees/ necromancer but that's boring and also takes too long Your income actually mostly comes from your settlements and the gold mine you get in Drakenhof. Focus on growth to get your settlements up to level 3+ fast, and your capitals to 4+ since the necro and vamp buildings give 350/500 each. Focus on one province at a time as you expand since you need to stabilize corruption ASAP to boost growth or you'll fight empire rebellions really often. Mazz fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 16:53
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Decus posted:That's an AI pattern factions spawn in with. There are avoid_player and anti_player behaviour modifiers designed to make certain factions go easy on the player at their starting position and others more likely to war them. If you turn off all of the avoid_player ones by changing their behavior profile to be the same as normal the game becomes harder and I imagine if you changed everything to have anti_player it'd be harder still. Interesting. Honestly I think the intent may have been to make chaos more of a threat to me (the player), but the actual result is that I got attacked in piecemeal by 3 weakened chaos stacks (sarth, kholek, and arch) which I demolished in my backyard without much trouble.
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Jun 16, 2016 16:57
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Mazz posted:Is it all on the back of spirit leech and lord sniping or is it a more complex build? It's a little of both. Death magic is just plain overpowered at the moment and VC have free access to it on heroes that are also strong combatants. Theoretically Chaos could be almost as bad if their units were balanced (they have just as much death access but basically their entire roster is overcosted). The reason VC are terrible to play against is that they force you to take a specific army to counter them. Investment in a lord is wasted. If you take Franz on his griffon then that is 1000g you just flushed down the toilet compared to taking Generic Empire Lord because he will never do anything worthwhile before he is leeched/magic missiled to death. Artillery is also wasted. The purpose of artillery is to force the enemy to come to you and to do damage their elite infantry along the way. But the VC are already coming to you anyway, and all of their worthwhile units either regenerate or are flying (and therefore very hard to hit with cannons). My normal Empire list is Franz, a wizard, a warrior priest, 2x cannons, 2x Reiksguard, then a bunch of gunners and basic spearmen with only 2x halberdier for melee above tier 1. It works pretty well. It's all about using the cannons to force them to come to you, and then using the heroes to disrupt the enemy charge and really give it to em with the guns. This build will 100% fail utterly against VC. For them I have to drop all the cool stuff. I roll Generic Lord, drop all the artillery and cav, and just pump that gold into greatswords and halberds (still have some guns to shoot flying). To beat VC you have to take a boring roster, and then still fight an uphill battle against an overpowered faction.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:15
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