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Slime posted:Dying in Dungeonmans doesn't feel as bad though, since you'll probably have contributed proofs, artifacts, hammer resources, books etc to the academy to boost the next character up a little more. And even when you die you can find that character's grave and get their weapon, XP and a stat bonus. If that weapon isn't suitable for your current character, just drop it in the warchest for someone else. There's still people save scumming it with regularity  (granted, if you've never played a roguelike/permadeath game before ever, losing your character is a real shock to most rpg players)
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Jul 3, 2016 18:39
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With how abrupt some of my deaths have been I can't really blame them.
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Jul 3, 2016 18:43
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I'm not good at playing platformer games - for example I have trouble getting through the second world in Spelunky, and it's a miracle if I see anything past that. Will I enjoy Towerclimb? How much of the game will be gated off to me due to my poor reflexes?
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Jul 3, 2016 21:22
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PleasingFungus posted:doomrl is notorious for not having a clock, which encourages people to sit in one place and lure the entire level there one monster at a time. Unless you're playing Angel/Archangel of Red Alert. 
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Jul 3, 2016 21:29
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I'm glad for this thread's slow mutation into a game design thread. The lead designer behind CivIV wrote an article a few years back about players optimizing the fun out of a game. I really need clutches like seeded results or enforced single-saves. I find it funny how, the moment I know that I don't have the alternative of rewinding, it goes right out of my mind and I can just have fun with the suboptimal results of my lovely choices. It's one of the great joys I find in roguelikes.
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Jul 3, 2016 22:46
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Beeme posted:I'm glad for this thread's slow mutation into a game design thread. Raph Koster posted:“This is what games are for. They teach us things so that we can minimize risk and know what choices to make. Phrased another way, the destiny of games is to become boring, not to be fun. Those of us who want games to be fun are fighting a losing battle against the human brain because fun is a process and routine is its destination.” a good article overall, but what is this defeatist bullshit
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Jul 3, 2016 22:50
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It seems to have become accepted doctrine at Blizzard that fighting how players actually play their game is a dumb and wasteful thing to do. I don't play WoW anymore, but I keep an eye on their dev talks occasionally, and it's evident in the way they talk and answer questions that they often plan both for how they expect players to play, and try to catch the Optimal Man problems before they arise. Sometimes it isn't even Optimal Man, it's 'Hey this is fun, this other thing is not, but the way you've built the game means I have to do this wildly unfun poo poo to do that other fun thing'. Destiny fell prey to this in a big way, and their investment team was so coldly reptilian in their design ethos that I bailed on the game despite really enjoying the hilariously busted pvp. Early on in the games life, players figured out they could farm certain enemy respawn locations. In a few cases, literally sitting in one place while other players nearby basically held the trigger down and racking up mountains of loot. It was loving boring. I never did it because it was loving boring, but a lot of my friends did, and they started hating it. Problems of that kind (one playstyle providing more rewards than any other) that have a greater impact on a multiplayer community are probably more of an issue than single player games, where the player can cheat if they want to as long as they have a good time and who cares? But it can still be lovely if there are problems in single player games where the solution is "Well just don't do that then!" I stopped playing Civ 5 for a long time once I realized how exploitable the diplomacy was. "Well just don't do that then!". Ultimately I realized the majority of 4x games in general are one giant pile of WJDDTT, so I only play the ones where the game is still inherently fun to me even knowing that the mechanics under the hood are about as solid as a bowl of jello. Game design: Protecting players from themselves.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:04
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victrix posted:Game design: Protecting players from themselves. It feels like Caves of Qud falls prey to this what with the chests in Joppa that you can steal. I can run through the opening game in my sleep now: grab the two quests from Mehmet and the Zealot, grab the chests after closing the doors, check what the trader has, and (w)alk to Argive to grab his quests. Now, it'd be faster not to grab those chests, but they sometimes drop grenades or cool things and I must have loot.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:20
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Nuclear throne question: If I have a golden weapon and get a new one do I lose the first one? IE I have a golden Wrench on melting, if I go back to YV's and open the chest will I lose the wrench or can I pick either one from then on?
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Jul 3, 2016 23:28
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I think ADOM can be one of the worst for that. If you encounter an early altar you can grind out an artifact but it can take hours of boring grinding. And sometimes what you get sucks. But even most of the kind of crappy ones are way better than the other gear you find at that point. They're also indestructible which is really really handy forever. But getting them is so grindy.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:28
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StrixNebulosa posted:It feels like Caves of Qud falls prey to this what with the chests in Joppa that you can steal. I can run through the opening game in my sleep now: grab the two quests from Mehmet and the Zealot, grab the chests after closing the doors, check what the trader has, and (w)alk to Argive to grab his quests. Now, it'd be faster not to grab those chests, but they sometimes drop grenades or cool things and I must have loot. I thought of these as being like the choice of perks at the start of Dungeonmans - it's a way of having a difficulty setting without being explicit. If you want an easier start, you take good perks in DMans or use the chests in Qud. If you want a harder start, tougher perks or avoid the chests.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:30
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Anatharon posted:Nuclear throne question: If I have a golden weapon and get a new one do I lose the first one? IE I have a golden Wrench on melting, if I go back to YV's and open the chest will I lose the wrench or can I pick either one from then on? Only if you carry the new golden weapon out of the level.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:34
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StrixNebulosa posted:I'm not good at playing platformer games - for example I have trouble getting through the second world in Spelunky, and it's a miracle if I see anything past that. Will I enjoy Towerclimb? How much of the game will be gated off to me due to my poor reflexes? I hate to dissuade anyone from playing Towerclimb, as I consider it one of the best games ever, but I have to admit that it's quite difficult and unforgiving. It took me dozens of hours to reach the single checkpoint halfway through the game, and hundreds of hours to beat the whole thing. edit - There is a newly added 'Easy Mode' - it lets you carry two extra lives at once instead of just one and halves their price, and a couple other tweaks as well. I've never played on that mode so I'm not sure how much easier it makes it in practice. It's one of those games where mastering the controls is quite difficult but once you do there's a great 'flow'. Tax Inductions fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jul 3, 2016 |
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Jul 3, 2016 23:37
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Anatharon posted:Nuclear throne question: If I have a golden weapon and get a new one do I lose the first one? IE I have a golden Wrench on melting, if I go back to YV's and open the chest will I lose the wrench or can I pick either one from then on? You can only ever have 1 golden weapon unlocked for a character at a time, so if you carry a new golden weapon through a level portal, then it replaces your current golden weapon. Pissed me off when I realized it because I'd replaced Melting's golden shotgun with a golden grenade launcher. EDIT, unrelated: I've been playing Catacomb Kids and enjoying myself. It's a 2D platformer roguelike and is quite lethal, what with the lava, pits, traps, and the fact that you have at most 5HP at the start of the game. It's also pretty RPG-y in that you have stats that you can increase (via point-buy) when you level up, and gear that gives pluses to different stats and/or other effects like featherfall or lighting your enemies on fire. It's still in early access, though, and because of said lethality I'm not sure how much content there is in the game. But it's doing a pretty good job of making procedurally-generated dungeons without letting you see the seams so much and without making the dungeons be bland, samey places. TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 3, 2016 |
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Jul 3, 2016 23:43
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Danger - Octopus! posted:I thought of these as being like the choice of perks at the start of Dungeonmans - it's a way of having a difficulty setting without being explicit. If you want an easier start, you take good perks in DMans or use the chests in Qud. If you want a harder start, tougher perks or avoid the chests. I'm so bad at this that not taking the chests doesn't even cross my mind, and I have on occasion rerolled a character because I was really counting on getting a firearm from them.
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Jul 4, 2016 00:27
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Mr. Wednesday posted:I hate to dissuade anyone from playing Towerclimb, as I consider it one of the best games ever, but I have to admit that it's quite difficult and unforgiving. It took me dozens of hours to reach the single checkpoint halfway through the game, and hundreds of hours to beat the whole thing. Thank you for this! I sat and had a long think about it, and I'm going to check out Towerclimb - videos of it look fun, and I suspect I'll have fun even in death.  edit: Oh man, I like this. Sooner or later the controls will click for me, but even right now with the rough controls my first run was lots of fun. I died at 4F, because I took the wrong route up and was out of teleport potions, and I slipped and fell when I tried to backtrack. StrixNebulosa fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 01:07
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StrixNebulosa posted:It feels like Caves of Qud falls prey to this what with the chests in Joppa that you can steal. I can run through the opening game in my sleep now: grab the two quests from Mehmet and the Zealot, grab the chests after closing the doors, check what the trader has, and (w)alk to Argive to grab his quests. Now, it'd be faster not to grab those chests, but they sometimes drop grenades or cool things and I must have loot. It's a moral lession about stealing.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:39
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It takes, like, two minutes to grab the chests. I just think of it as the game's care package to starting characters to minimize the frustration of getting repeatedly murdered by snapjaws and amoebae.
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Jul 4, 2016 01:49
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Unormal posted:It's a moral lession about stealing. "If you live enough lifetimes, eventually you will tire of stealing." Seems about right. 
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Jul 4, 2016 01:54
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For whoever wanted more on the Curious Expedition, it doesn't really stack up to Renowned Explorers at all. RE is at least a full game, whereas at the moment Curious Expedition's only real mechanic is trying to ensure you cross a map in an efficient a manner as possible. It looks good but it doesn't really have enough in the way of choices and ways to mix things up and I ended up getting pretty bored of it. Meanwhile, RE's expansion was actually really good and I got sucked back in for quite a while. drat it.
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Jul 4, 2016 02:28
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I would greatly prefer if the Qud chests were either removed or made part of the start. I'm leaning towards removed because having randomly generated stuff at the very start leads to the worst scumming behavior. Maybe offer some character-appropriate starting gear instead.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:24
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Just don't steal. Stealing is wrong. Actually let me just post a mod removing the chests. One sec. Caves of Qud SURVIVAL MODE incoming.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:25
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Unormal posted:Just don't steal. Stealing is wrong. BUG: Characters are no longer generated with torsos, as their chests were removed.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:35
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There ya go: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=716999309 I relieved his shoulder of the burden, His hands were freed from the basket.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:40
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Zaodai posted:BUG: Characters are no longer generated with torsos, as their chests were removed. 
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Jul 4, 2016 03:41
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I want to make a Joppa Noir mod where Ualraig offers the the player a quest to investigate a series of mysterious thefts in Joppa and find themselves caught in a fractal web of lies so huge it threatens to consume of all Qud itself.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:41
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Unormal posted:Just don't steal. Stealing is wrong. 
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Jul 4, 2016 03:42
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Glimpse posted:I want to make a Joppa Noir mod where Ualraig offers the the player a quest to investigate a series of mysterious thefts in Joppa and find themselves caught in a fractal web of lies so huge it threatens to consume of all Qud itself. We actually came up with a mechanic I really like for a Sherlock type sleuth mystery we're going to put in the game someday.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:44
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Unormal: are you planning to go places with the Dark Calculus, or is that just yet another fascinating side-book?
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Jul 4, 2016 03:46
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Unormal: are you planning to go places with the Dark Calculus, or is that just yet another fascinating side-book? We ain't have a policy talkin' content. Ain't dey wish the heart keep pumpin'? Best be move' long.
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Jul 4, 2016 03:49
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Unormal posted:Just don't steal. Stealing is wrong. Wait. I am a vidya game murderhobo, why am I supposed to listen to you?
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Jul 4, 2016 03:50
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Things that have killed me in Catacomb Kids so far (not remotely an inclusive list): combat with bats; being jumped on by orcs; being hit out of the air by a bat and into a bed of spikes; getting nibbled to death by piranha while trying to recover loot from a pool; triggering a fire trap that kills a slime and then trying to eat the too-hot ball of slime goo; fighting near a torch, knocking it over, and being set on fire; knocking a pile of barrels over only for one of them to roll over me; incautiously drinking an unidentified Potion of Flame; cleverly throwing a potion at an enemy to identify it, only for the potion to be a Potion of Might and losing the resultant melee; blundering into the Grim Reaper and getting, well, reaped. So far it's not Spelunky in terms of sheer crazy chain reactions, but I'm satisfied with the game's creativity in ways to punish failure.
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Jul 4, 2016 04:21
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PleasingFungus posted:doomrl is notorious for not having a clock, which encourages people to sit in one place and lure the entire level there one monster at a time. sil does have a good clock (the minimum depth that increases over time), but it also has a vestigial food clock, iirc - does that ever become relevant? The sil foodclock isn't actually a clock; it's a mechanic/resist that needs to be managed. There's enough food to play the game, but the second you commit to (or get screwed by) a hunger-inducing item, you can starve yourself shockingly fast. So there are ways to get sustenance items/skills, but it's a juggling act in opportunity costs. It also gently nudges new players to hurry the gently caress up, which is something the actual game clock doesn't convey as well.
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Jul 4, 2016 05:03
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Serephina posted:The sil foodclock isn't actually a clock; it's a mechanic/resist that needs to be managed. There's enough food to play the game, but the second you commit to (or get screwed by) a hunger-inducing item, you can starve yourself shockingly fast. So there are ways to get sustenance items/skills, but it's a juggling act in opportunity costs. It also gently nudges new players to hurry the gently caress up, which is something the actual game clock doesn't convey as well. ahh, i was wondering if it was something like that! good to know.
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Jul 4, 2016 05:05
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You can only ever have 1 golden weapon unlocked for a character at a time, so if you carry a new golden weapon through a level portal, then it replaces your current golden weapon. so how long did it take to figure out the golden grenade launcher is the best golden weapon
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Jul 4, 2016 05:29
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Danger - Octopus! posted:I thought of these as being like the choice of perks at the start of Dungeonmans - it's a way of having a difficulty setting without being explicit. If you want an easier start, you take good perks in DMans or use the chests in Qud. If you want a harder start, tougher perks or avoid the chests. This only really works for starting options IMO. Things like the race choice in Sil are pretty explicitly a difficulty slider, which people are fine with, but you can't really do the same thing in the middle of a game -- once they're actually playing the game they'll just pick the "good" option. Even for stuff like unofficial conducts in Nethack, the player decides he wants to follow it before he starts the game. Nobody plays down to the Castle and then decides that they're going to do a wishless run.
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Jul 4, 2016 06:46
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I picked up Sproggiwood (on my tablet, since I had lots of Google bucks) and 868-HACK. I'm really liking the former. The latter... well, it's more of a puzzle game, it seems, than a LEET HACKING EXPERIENCE. Any roguelikes that give the cyberpunk-esque 'hacking the Gibson' experience?
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Jul 4, 2016 10:02
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Did Uplink have permadeath?
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Jul 4, 2016 10:39
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Isaac posted:Did Uplink have permadeath? You could get arrested and lose the game, but upgrades let you remotely access your hacking rig and self destruct it in the case of discovery to avoid arrest. You'd still lose it and all associated costs of thereof, though.
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Jul 4, 2016 13:57
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FredMSloniker posted:I picked up Sproggiwood (on my tablet, since I had lots of Google bucks) and 868-HACK. I'm really liking the former. The latter... well, it's more of a puzzle game, it seems, than a LEET HACKING EXPERIENCE. Any roguelikes that give the cyberpunk-esque 'hacking the Gibson' experience? It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but you should still try Duskers if you haven't.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:19
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