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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I do wonder how Jesse's,"Stay away from me" will work on them. He used The Word so they had no choice but to comply, but it's another open to interpretation thing - did he mean,"Stay away from me now" or "Stay away from me forever"?

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Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



AtraMorS posted:

I think that was mostly the point. Most of the reason Arseface doesn't have friends is because people are dicks. Even adults treat him like poo poo. But the other part (that they did a really good job showing) is that it's gotta be hard for the guy to trust anyone who actually is nice to him because you know he's gotten burned like that before and it's probably made him paranoid around his peers.

It also helps make his optimism a lot more respectable to me (which in the comics came across as naive and borderline mentally challenged). Way to go dude, at least you found a few folks who really did just want to show you something cool. Based on my reaction to those scenes, I wouldn't have.

I like to think his line "It's beautiful" was a deliberate echo of his final line in the comic.

Anyway, yeah, the budget thing is really starting to become obvious. While I think they do definitely make the most they can of what they have, it's almost painful how carefully they're tiptoeing around having to do any big effects-laden scenes. Like the way the conception of Genesis was depicted in the comic, with the armies of heaven and hell clashing, the two rebellious figures, the birth of Genesis, all that up front and center. In the show, we've got live-action characters to show it all to us, and... they tell us the story as talking heads sitting in a diner. :geno:

I mean, the show can do some pretty neat effects stuff, like the escape from the plane in the pilot. But as a general rule it's being insanely economical, especially for an adaptation of something so inherently visual.

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax

Data Graham posted:

Anyway, yeah, the budget thing is really starting to become obvious. While I think they do definitely make the most they can of what they have, it's almost painful how carefully they're tiptoeing around having to do any big effects-laden scenes.

Because of this we missed out on one of the best moments from the comics

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!
^^ We'll probably get something similar to that later, I'll be surprised if we don't.

I've never really seen it as a particularly low-budget show. They've done a lot of different sets, thrown together crashed helicopters, frequent effects (gore effects if nothing else), I don't expect it to get a budget increase despite getting a second season, unless ratings really start going up. It's dropped from about a 2.4 million viewer premiere to a low point of 1.1 million. It seems to be bouncing back from that low a bit, but that's a hell of a plunge.

Into the Badlands got a second season well after the last episode of its season ended though, and had similar ratings issues, so maybe AMC is just more willing to give shows time and cares less about ratings than other networks. I was shocked that halt and catch fire was coming back for instance since I remember it's ratings were especially bad and it didn't really get critical acclaim like Preacher (and to a lesser degree Badlands) got. After you get a payoff on shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men really putting your network on the map after slow starts, I suppose you become willing to take a lot more risks and keeps shows running with all your Walking Dead money.

AtraMorS
Feb 29, 2004

If at the end of a war story you feel that some tiny bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie

WickedHate posted:

Because of this we missed out on one of the best moments from the comics


There's that one, and isn't there a similar scene when an angel/demon's descriptions turn into some George RR Martin-level awfulness--something like, "And our juices mingled among the..."--and Cassidy (or Tulip, or somebody) just interrupts with something like, "'Juices'? loving 'juices'? Cut the poo poo."

I lent my copies out to a friend shortly before the season started, so I can't look for it. But she really liked that part.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009


Tulip's hands while folding pamphlets were freaking me out

Josh Lyman fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jul 5, 2016

Tortolia
Dec 29, 2005

Hindustan Electronics Employee of the Month, July 2008
Grimey Drawer
That was one of the best bookends to an episode of TV that I can recall. Holy poo poo.

Zythrst
May 31, 2011

Time to join a revolution son, its going to be yooge!

NowonSA posted:

^^ We'll probably get something similar to that later, I'll be surprised if we don't.

I've never really seen it as a particularly low-budget show. They've done a lot of different sets, thrown together crashed helicopters, frequent effects (gore effects if nothing else), I don't expect it to get a budget increase despite getting a second season, unless ratings really start going up. It's dropped from about a 2.4 million viewer premiere to a low point of 1.1 million. It seems to be bouncing back from that low a bit, but that's a hell of a plunge.

Into the Badlands got a second season well after the last episode of its season ended though, and had similar ratings issues, so maybe AMC is just more willing to give shows time and cares less about ratings than other networks. I was shocked that halt and catch fire was coming back for instance since I remember it's ratings were especially bad and it didn't really get critical acclaim like Preacher (and to a lesser degree Badlands) got. After you get a payoff on shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men really putting your network on the map after slow starts, I suppose you become willing to take a lot more risks and keeps shows running with all your Walking Dead money.

Basically yeah. If the critics like it and people will binge it on Netflix they're going to keep it.

Abner Assington
Mar 13, 2005

For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry god. Bloody Mary, full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now, at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon.

Amen.
This show is cool, but Tulip sucks a lot.

Send her to Hell instead of Arseface, please.

Medullah
Aug 14, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

AtraMorS posted:

There's that one, and isn't there a similar scene when an angel/demon's descriptions turn into some George RR Martin-level awfulness--something like, "And our juices mingled among the..."--and Cassidy (or Tulip, or somebody) just interrupts with something like, "'Juices'? loving 'juices'? Cut the poo poo."

I lent my copies out to a friend shortly before the season started, so I can't look for it. But she really liked that part.

It was when Genesis' daddy was describing how they met to Jesse

Comics -

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Yeah, exactly. I mean, the show's got the spirit of Preacher, and despite all the liberties they're taking with characterizations I enjoy the ensemble just fine. But of all the ways I imagined Preacher being shown on-screen in live action, a bunch of awkward guys in cowboy hats puttering around a Texas town and giving each other monologues about esoteric spiritual concepts wouldn't even have made the list.

AtraMorS
Feb 29, 2004

If at the end of a war story you feel that some tiny bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie

Medullah posted:

It was when Genesis' daddy was describing how they met to Jesse

Comics -


Oh yeah. That's the stuff.

I know Preacher was juvenile as hell most of the time, but he takes the piss out of pretension as well as anybody.

Supreme Allah
Oct 6, 2004

everybody relax, i'm here
Nap Ghost
YOU BROKE MY KIDS ART THING..

SO..

:mad:

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

AtraMorS posted:

Oh yeah. That's the stuff.

I know Preacher was juvenile as hell most of the time, but he takes the piss out of pretension as well as anybody.

Except when talking about his own pretensions, then it became metaphor city (especially if you got that ole boy talking about his parents, they only loved each other for one night, but by golly, that love shone like some kind of swamp gas on the moonlight.)

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



grobbo posted:

'This is like Pulp Fiction, you know.'
'Right. And I'm Vincent Vega.'
*considers* '...Eh, it's cool.' *scratches armpit, sniffs*

Oh, those two boys of mine.

I seem to recall Ennis specifically saying that a lot of the repartee between Jesse and Cassidy (particularly their bonding over the Three Stooges versus Charlie Chaplin leading up to that bar fight) was an homage to Pulp Fiction and Tarantino's then-novel signature style of having your guys just shooting the poo poo about royales with cheese while they go about their horrible horrible business.

Big Bad Voodoo Lou
Jan 1, 2006

Data Graham posted:

I seem to recall Ennis specifically saying that a lot of the repartee between Jesse and Cassidy (particularly their bonding over the Three Stooges versus Charlie Chaplin leading up to that bar fight) was an homage to Pulp Fiction and Tarantino's then-novel signature style of having your guys just shooting the poo poo about royales with cheese while they go about their horrible horrible business.

Tarantino's style of writing was very influential on '90s comics. I remember James Robinson pulled that at least twice in Starman: with two gangsters arguing over the best Stephen Sondheim musical while torturing a guy, and with Jack Knight, the Golden Age Green Lantern, Batman, and the Floronic Man naming their favorite Woody Allen movies. (After some prompting, Batman admitted he liked Crimes and Misdemeanors.)

Supreme Allah
Oct 6, 2004

everybody relax, i'm here
Nap Ghost

ruddiger posted:

Except when talking about his own pretensions, then it became metaphor city (especially if you got that ole boy talking about his parents, they only loved each other for one night, but by golly, that love shone like some kind of swamp gas on the moonlight.)

How long m i gonna luv u gurl

Jesse was as up his own rear end as anyone, except he really needed his poo poo not to stink

Most of the other characters were at least honest about being selfish assholes, he was just a caricature of what Garth Ennis considered decent, a passable hypocrite

AtraMorS
Feb 29, 2004

If at the end of a war story you feel that some tiny bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie

ruddiger posted:

Except when talking about his own pretensions, then it became metaphor city (especially if you got that ole boy talking about his parents, they only loved each other for one night, but by golly, that love shone like some kind of swamp gas on the moonlight.)
You say this in reaction to a page about a one-gently caress stand.

I'm not sure what comic you're referencing (I've read Preacher and his Hellblazer stuff and that's about it), and anybody can have a blind spot when it comes to family so I don't necessarily disbelieve you, but look at the context for a second.

Kulkasha
Jan 15, 2010

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Likchenpa.
Poor Cass made a literal :smith: face at the end there.

Vicissitude
Jan 26, 2004

You ever do the chicken dance at a wake? That really bothers people.

Medullah posted:

There was at least one point where it showed the Word was more than just mind control - not quite as over the top as last night, but still -



To be fair, they were standing next to gas cans and a burning cross from what I remember, so it's not inconceivable that they'd just set themselves on fire.

Supreme Allah
Oct 6, 2004

everybody relax, i'm here
Nap Ghost
To be fair, that's really stupid and not at all what happened.

They spontaneously started burning when he used the word, gas cans had nothing to do with it. How would that even happen.

Jesse: 'Burn.'

Fellas: 'oh no, i'm tripping into gas cans and spreading the fire all over by such a coincidence. Also the artist isn't drawing any of this just us burning.'

Supreme Allah
Oct 6, 2004

everybody relax, i'm here
Nap Ghost
Oh sorry - you figure the word would compel them to use the nearest flammable means to do what it told them. That makes sense, the show may do some stuff like that even though the comic didn't show it that way.

But Eugene did just spontaneously disappear so I expect they'll explore the actual limits of the Word to do 'magic' as much as Jesse did in the comic -- not very much at all.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

Data Graham posted:

Anyway, yeah, the budget thing is really starting to become obvious. While I think they do definitely make the most they can of what they have, it's almost painful how carefully they're tiptoeing around having to do any big effects-laden scenes. Like the way the conception of Genesis was depicted in the comic, with the armies of heaven and hell clashing, the two rebellious figures, the birth of Genesis, all that up front and center. In the show, we've got live-action characters to show it all to us, and... they tell us the story as talking heads sitting in a diner. :geno:


This isn't a movie, that would have a been a tremendous waste of resources on stuff that is completely inconsequential to what is being told on screen. What would have big CGI armies possibly added to that scene? The answer is nothing, absolutely nothing at all.

Data Graham posted:

I mean, the show can do some pretty neat effects stuff, like the escape from the plane in the pilot. But as a general rule it's being insanely economical, especially for an adaptation of something so inherently visual.

Who cares? What makes this show enjoyable is that it switches between complete lunacy like the Angel fight in this episode and subdued horrifying almost Better Call Saul style 'this barely anything happening on screen is the tensest poo poo ever' in "Go to hell" and "Serve god". Would either of those scenes have been improved by a bigger FX budget? The answer is blatantly no. In fact, the "Go to hell" scene would have been completely ruined by us being shown what was actually happening to him. Small impactful character driven moments is what makes good television.

What I'm saying is that you should enjoy this show for what it is rather then what it isn't.

scuba school sucks
Aug 30, 2012

The brilliance of my posting illuminates the forums like a jar of shining gold when all around is dark

Supreme Allah posted:

Oh sorry - you figure the word would compel them to use the nearest flammable means to do what it told them. That makes sense, the show may do some stuff like that even though the comic didn't show it that way.

But Eugene did just spontaneously disappear so I expect they'll explore the actual limits of the Word to do 'magic' as much as Jesse did in the comic -- not very much at all.

There was also the serial killer in the comic who Jesse killed with one punch because he said DIE while hitting the guy.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



MiddleOne posted:

This isn't a movie, that would have a been a tremendous waste of resources on stuff that is completely inconsequential to what is being told on screen. What would have big CGI armies possibly added to that scene? The answer is nothing, absolutely nothing at all.


Who cares? What makes this show enjoyable is that it switches between complete lunacy like the Angel fight in this episode and subdued horrifying almost Better Call Saul style 'this barely anything happening on screen is the tensest poo poo ever' in "Go to hell" and "Serve god". Would either of those scenes have been improved by a bigger FX budget? The answer is blatantly no. In fact, the "Go to hell" scene would have been completely ruined by us being shown what was actually happening to him. Small impactful character driven moments is what makes good television.

What I'm saying is that you should enjoy this show for what it is rather then what it isn't.

Sure, I'm totally with you there (the Arseface bit). But it's just some of the backstory/exposition bits that feel tailor-made for some flashier showing-not-telling; having a guy just describing it to me feels like I'm being cheated a bit.

Like you say it would have wasted resources; that's kind of my point, it definitely feels like a decision made out of a dearth of budget, like seeing just the aftermath of the helicopter crash and none of what was making all the noise beforehand. There's a fine line between making it look like a stylistic choice and making it look like you didn't have any other option.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

You think you can take me at Satan's Hollow? Go 'head on!

Jerusalem posted:

I do wonder how Jesse's,"Stay away from me" will work on them. He used The Word so they had no choice but to comply, but it's another open to interpretation thing - did he mean,"Stay away from me now" or "Stay away from me forever"?

I imagine they're going to get around it by killing themselves, so their resurrected selves aren't bound by the same command.

Kulkasha
Jan 15, 2010

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Likchenpa.

Network Pesci posted:

There was also the serial killer in the comic who Jesse killed with one punch because he said DIE while hitting the guy.

"That's one hell of a left hook."

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Jerusalem posted:

I do wonder how Jesse's,"Stay away from me" will work on them. He used The Word so they had no choice but to comply, but it's another open to interpretation thing - did he mean,"Stay away from me now" or "Stay away from me forever"?

What does "stay away" even mean, necessarily? Don't get closer? Get as far away as you can? Lots of ways to interpret that command.

My guess was they were just frozen in place where he said it, they had to "stay". "away" is ambiguous but they were already a distance away from him when he said it, and they froze.

King Vidiot posted:

I imagine they're going to get around it by killing themselves, so their resurrected selves aren't bound by the same command.

That'd be a fun loophole. Would also be interesting to see if it persists through their ... what did they call it? Not Resurrection but something close. Reconstitution?

Had he given the angels any commands before that?

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax

Zaphod42 posted:

Had he given the angels any commands before that?

He made them tell him about Genesis.

Johnny Truant
Jul 22, 2008




I'm curious as to why Jesse didn't just use the Word during the Seraphim fight. I'm not complaining at all cause that scene was :krad: but I feel like it would've saved them a lot of trouble, right? I know the two angels(what're their names, again? Fiore and...?) said never ever to use it, but I thought that was just their ultimatum, and not something specific to the Seraphim?

SimonChris
Apr 24, 2008

The Baron's daughter is missing, and you are the man to find her. No problem. With your inexhaustible arsenal of hard-boiled similes, there is nothing you can't handle.
Grimey Drawer

Johnny Truant posted:

I'm curious as to why Jesse didn't just use the Word during the Seraphim fight. I'm not complaining at all cause that scene was :krad: but I feel like it would've saved them a lot of trouble, right? I know the two angels(what're their names, again? Fiore and...?) said never ever to use it, but I thought that was just their ultimatum, and not something specific to the Seraphim?
I think he didn't want the Seraphim to find out that Genesis was with him.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

WickedHate posted:

He made them tell him about Genesis.

Ah yeah, I knew he did something else. That's not really an 'ongoing' command though, so we don't know if it effects them post-death or not.

Johnny Truant posted:

I'm curious as to why Jesse didn't just use the Word during the Seraphim fight. I'm not complaining at all cause that scene was :krad: but I feel like it would've saved them a lot of trouble, right? I know the two angels(what're their names, again? Fiore and...?) said never ever to use it, but I thought that was just their ultimatum, and not something specific to the Seraphim?

Jesse is still experimenting with The Word and its power and learning it, meanwhile as we saw with Donny when it comes to violence he has strong instincts already.

He trusts himself in a fight, heck; he likes fighting. Using The Word would skip that.

His whole "you're going to have to turn your head when you use the phone", its like he's taunting her. He wants to fight.

Johnny Truant
Jul 22, 2008




Zaphod42 posted:

He trusts himself in a fight, heck; he likes fighting. Using The Word would skip that.

His whole "you're going to have to turn your head when you use the phone", its like he's taunting her. He wants to fight.

SimonChris posted:

I think he didn't want the Seraphim to find out that Genesis was with him.

Yup both of these explanations make sense! I totally spaced on the scene with him and the Seraphim having the phone standoff. Definitely rewatching this ep tonight!

The Cosby Mysteries
Oct 5, 2007

Happy Birthday, Mr. President
Watched the next episode preview and spoilered just in case.. Wow.. It looks like Jesse isn't even trying to undo what he did. I thought he would at least ask the Angels or something but it seems he's going to chalk it up to 'my word/The Word is correct no matter what I say' which is very intriguing.

I'm almost getting Walter White vibes in that by the end of the season we'll see him completely consumed by his own paranoia and interpretation on what's fair and just which sounds awesome. Lucy will be the Skyler of this show.

And... Completely agree with the goon that stated Jesse was the perfect host which is why the first preacher in Africa got splattered. I wonder how long Genesis has being looking for a host?

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007

A few pages back some posters were talking about the word and Jesse using it on Odin Quincannon and what the interpretation was--I thought I'd throw my hat into that ring, though I may be reaching on a couple of these:

1) In the comics, a major theme toward the resolution that involved The Saint of Killers was that God was actually a lying, abusive, manipulative, hypocritical rear end in a top hat who used people for His own purposes. There was even one scene in the comic where God was lecturing Cassidy for being a vampire, basically, calling him a creature of the night or some such, even though the assumption many readers probably made was that God made everything, so he made Cassidy too, and the hag that turned him into a vampire, making God a giant hypocrite for lecturing someone for being a thing he made (can't remember exactly, and the two instances of God lecturing someone in the comics may be merging together in my mind, there was another one where God was lecturing an angel before punishing him, IIRC). Jesse calls God an rear end in a top hat or some such more than once, and The Saint of Killers isn't too enamored with God either, when he finds out the truth about his family. For all intents and purposes, God is the biggest villain in the entire run of the comics. With that in mind, I'd say that when Quincannon was commanded by Jesse to serve God, the idea was that since God is a giant rear end in a top hat, Odin Quincannon was basically acting at God's behest, and also true to his own nature as a sociopathic rear end in a top hat himself. It could even be, along with that explanation, that Quincannon is actually serving the fire-and-brimstone Old Testament God, who had no problems wiping out entire civilizations for being sinful.

2) It's also reasonable to assume that it's got to be open to interpretation of the person on whom the Word is used, so if you're already a giant rear end in a top hat and you're commanded to serve God, you're going to serve God in the context of your personality and how you interpret that through your rear end in a top hat brain. Someone who was already a decent person and wanted to do good might interpret "SERVE GOD" as doing something they think God would want them to do because they are a decent person--whereas a dude like Quincannon is not a good person, so you could maybe view the fact that he seemed to get MORE violent after being commanded by Jesse to serve God as evidence that he's serving God in the way he thinks it should be done.

3) You could say that since he wasn't actually commanded to believe in God, simply telling him to serve a God he already didn't believe existed would change nothing about his actions. In that scenario, the Word would be quite literal, as if Odin only said he'd serve God because the Word gave him no other choice but to say he would, but didn't actually make him go do the thing Jesse told him to do because he didn't believe in the God Jesse told him to serve in the first place. It would be similar to the idea that if Jesse told some dude to beat up someone that didn't exist, it kind of nullifies the order; you can't very well follow an order (even coming from a being more powerful than God) to do something to someone that doesn't exist or to serve someone that either doesn't exist or who they don't believe exists. But coming from Genesis, there still seems to be that whole idea that the person being told to do something must obey the command or at least acknowledge it, so Quincannon couldn't exactly just come out and say, "But God doesn't exist and this is a bullshit order!" IOW, it was basically like Jesse gave Quincannon an order that couldn't actually be obeyed, so it was pretty much not really an order at all. I guess that explanation kind of ties in with the person to whom Jesse is giving the order and how they interpret it, too.

Sorry for sperging all over the thread

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

The Cosby Mysteries posted:

I wonder how long Genesis has being looking for a host?

Not too long, a few days? We see it show up on earth in the first scene of the first episode. We see the first preacher die, and we find out from TV that Tom Cruise blew up, and we see some priest in Russia or something has apparently blown up, so he's tried a few before he settles on Jesse but not like a ton, it hasn't been years or anything.

life is killing me posted:

It could even be, along with that explanation, that Quincannon is actually serving the fire-and-brimstone Old Testament God, who had no problems wiping out entire civilizations for being sinful.

This is my theory. He said "Serve God" not "Serve Jesus".

Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jul 6, 2016

Krowley
Feb 15, 2008

Odin's god is unchecked capitalism. You expand or you die, like he said after killing the competition

WickedHate
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax
Odin couldn't even lie and say he didn't see the light for the sake of getting Jesse's land, so there's gotta be some Biblical connection enough to have made Odin concede the bet.

Firstborn
Oct 14, 2012

i'm the heckin best
yeah
yeah
yeah
frig all the rest
This episode was great. I love this show. About the only thing that makes me uncomfortable is Seth Rogan providing the voice of Genesis. Just seems... weird.

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Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Johnny Truant posted:

I'm curious as to why Jesse didn't just use the Word during the Seraphim fight. I'm not complaining at all cause that scene was :krad: but I feel like it would've saved them a lot of trouble, right? I know the two angels(what're their names, again? Fiore and...?) said never ever to use it, but I thought that was just their ultimatum, and not something specific to the Seraphim?

There were a couple of times in the comic where he just straight-up forgot he had the Word in the heat of the moment.

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