[MAFIA] Shine II: The Chicago Outfit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The Game Room > [MAFIA] Shine II: The Chicago Outfit

Murmur Twin: Feb 11, 2003; An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

flerp posted:

i actually disagree with this case. this reminded me a bit of how AA reacted to the quid/TQ situation way earlier in the game, where he was doubting everything. cpig did the same thing, but accepted it a lot quicker, while AA hammered it harder. i had a town read on aa when he did that because scum would accept it much easier then town when everyone else is accepting it in order to be safe, but town would be more willing to go against the grain because they dont have a lot of information and are more likely to doubt players.

so, likewise, when everyone was hitting jimson, aa goes against the grain and hits you, or at least, puts doubt on you. now, i can see the idea that aa is possibly trying to divert the lynch onto you to save a scumbo, but pretty much everyone knew that jimson would be lynched. it was a long time coming and im sure almost everyone entertained the idea that jimson was scum at one point in this game while very few were willing to put you into a scum category at all. scum aa, esp one that has quite a bit of suspicision on him p much this entire game, would want to be on an early jimson vote as he would be aware that jimson would flip scum. to me, aa's suspicision shows exactly what defines a townie - a lack of information. if he knew that jimson would flip scum i think aa wouldve voted for him earlier. similarly, i think this thought about a possible mmt/jimson gambit also comes from a townie position.

It's not like the momentum on Jimson came out of nowhere, though? There's a reason that the lynch on Jimson was a long time coming - I had a scum read on him for most of the game and was pushing him before other people were. I figured his claim on me was a weird sort of OMGUS where he figured he could discredit what I was saying that he lacked the ability to follow up on (because he was lying).

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

MMT because its an unverifiable claim. I get that no one can say for sure about mine either, but it's incredibly convenient. Also if either one of her or Jimson flipped scum that day, we'd have given the other a pass. It seems to me like its not improbable that they'd distance themselves from one another, and establishing the contradicting claims like 5 minutes apart seems like a smart gambit to try and get town on one of their sides. Like I know Jimson does silly things, but that would have been intentional sabotage.

I think they gamed the town, if it's truly not flerp.

I don't think you can case me on having an unverifiable claim and then just gloss over the fact that yours is too. And I don't see how anyone can possibly think that Jimson and I coordinated that sequence but admittedly I don't think I can be objective there.

SirSamVimes posted:

Trying to read Jimson posthumously is making my eyes glaze over

I'm laughing at the idea that SSV literally fell asleep trying to reread Jimson. SSV - did you gain any new information / opinions from rereading the flipped scum?

SirSamVimes posted:

I mean why would Jimson kill KB after making it clear to everyone that he thinks that he's a power role? If he were scum, wouldn't he pretend he thinks that KB is vanilla to not have a clear motive for targetting him?

Also, four actions happened last night (not including mine)

I don't think we should be giving SSV a pass simply because he used the Spymaster ability - it's perfectly feasible that scum would take that to be able to share information that (a) doesn't really help the town that much, (b) can be fabricated, and (c) gives him the impression of content despite the fact that he hasn't really shown strong conviction towards any one opinion.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 16:09

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# ? Apr 16, 2024 18:07

Murmur Twin: Feb 11, 2003; An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

flerp posted:

i actually disagree with this case. this reminded me a bit of how AA reacted to the quid/TQ situation way earlier in the game, where he was doubting everything. cpig did the same thing, but accepted it a lot quicker, while AA hammered it harder. i had a town read on aa when he did that because scum would accept it much easier then town when everyone else is accepting it in order to be safe, but town would be more willing to go against the grain because they dont have a lot of information and are more likely to doubt players.

so, likewise, when everyone was hitting jimson, aa goes against the grain and hits you, or at least, puts doubt on you. now, i can see the idea that aa is possibly trying to divert the lynch onto you to save a scumbo, but pretty much everyone knew that jimson would be lynched. it was a long time coming and im sure almost everyone entertained the idea that jimson was scum at one point in this game while very few were willing to put you into a scum category at all. scum aa, esp one that has quite a bit of suspicision on him p much this entire game, would want to be on an early jimson vote as he would be aware that jimson would flip scum. to me, aa's suspicision shows exactly what defines a townie - a lack of information. if he knew that jimson would flip scum i think aa wouldve voted for him earlier. similarly, i think this thought about a possible mmt/jimson gambit also comes from a townie position.

After re-reading this, I think it's flerp. He was going against AA all game when AA was suspicious of him, but as soon as AA switches to me he decides that AA is believable and that I'm the last scum? ##vote flerp

# ? Jul 10, 2016 16:17

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

Ok a night of mulling it over and reading responses leaves me with this.

##vote AA

Also something that I found interesting about mindset:

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

You are wickedly scummy. If it wasn't for someone I cleared as town verifying your role mechanics... I'd be voting you right now.

This is in response to:

Moatillata posted:

I'm sold on it. I expected something like that from adahn. My only worry is that scum caught it too and redirected it.

My above post was stating that I believed the adahn breadcrumb but worried that scum may have hosed with it and we couldnt trust the results.

AAs response to that is that I am scum. Why? Because in AAs mind scums job is to muddy the waters and cast doubt on things that should seem simple or cut and dry.

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

flerp because of their reactions to any kind of pressure at all. It's overly dramatic, and seemed like artificial anger when there was nothing to "flip out" about, so to speak.

MMT because its an unverifiable claim. I get that no one can say for sure about mine either, but it's incredibly convenient. Also if either one of her or Jimson flipped scum that day, we'd have given the other a pass. It seems to me like its not improbable that they'd distance themselves from one another, and establishing the contradicting claims like 5 minutes apart seems like a smart gambit to try and get town on one of their sides. Like I know Jimson does silly things, but that would have been intentional sabotage.

I think they gamed the town, if it's truly not flerp.

FL I copped and unless there's still a godfather in this game, and it's him, then he's town.

If we truly aren't at MYLO, then I'm fine dying today to prove my reads as genuine. At first I was reluctant and adamantly believed this would be it, but yeah.

vote MMT

I think her and jimson gamed us hard.

Interesting. My read of this?

He tries to take a simple situation (jimson tries to get mmt lynched) and makes it waaaay more complicated than it should be. Makes a whole conspiracy out of it when simply put if jimson had gotten mmt lynched it and she flipped town

1. We would be on lylo right now

2. Town would lose a solid ally and jimson could start working on his next target.

3. We would lose another day lynching jimson and scum would get a nk

This is just as good an outcome for scum as the whole mmt jimson long con. Also re reading really alleviated those suspicions for me.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 16:32

Anomalous Amalgam: Feb 13, 2015; by Nyc_Tattoo; Doctor Rope

Moatillata posted:

Ok a night of mulling it over and reading responses leaves me with this.

##vote AA

Also something that I found interesting about mindset:

This is in response to:

My above post was stating that I believed the adahn breadcrumb but worried that scum may have hosed with it and we couldnt trust the results.

AAs response to that is that I am scum. Why? Because in AAs mind scums job is to muddy the waters and cast doubt on things that should seem simple or cut and dry.

Interesting. My read of this?

He tries to take a simple situation (jimson tries to get mmt lynched) and makes it waaaay more complicated than it should be. Makes a whole conspiracy out of it when simply put if jimson had gotten mmt lynched it and she flipped town

1. We would be on lylo right now

2. Town would lose a solid ally and jimson could start working on his next target.

3. We would lose another day lynching jimson and scum would get a nk

This is just as good an outcome for scum as the whole mmt jimson long con. Also re reading really alleviated those suspicions for me.

You're wrong here pal.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 16:38

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

Murmur Twin posted:

After re-reading this, I think it's flerp. He was going against AA all game when AA was suspicious of him, but as soon as AA switches to me he decides that AA is believable and that I'm the last scum? ##vote flerp

idk man people can, you know, change their minds. i also said nowhere in that case that i thought you were scum whatsoever i just thought that that case was weak and i disagreed with it. that was it.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 18:18

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

flerp posted:

idk man people can, you know, change their minds. i also said nowhere in that case that i thought you were scum whatsoever i just thought that that case was weak and i disagreed with it. that was it.

So you don't think mmt is scum? Or you do?

# ? Jul 10, 2016 18:23

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

when i made the post, i didnt think she was scum. but now, im not rly sure.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 18:35

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

flerp posted:

when i made the post, i didnt think she was scum. but now, im not rly sure.

Okay. How about this, you think that the jimson mmt long con double jeopardy is real?

# ? Jul 10, 2016 18:59

flerp: Feb 25, 2014

not rly it does legit feel like a stretch but

JimsonTheBetrayer posted:

Crazy
Ol
Jimson
Tho

anyways idk the vote onto me feels reactionary, and it, to me, feels like mmt is more "how dare you call me scum" then "how dare you think aa is town." likewise i dont rly get how that post makes me scum. like maybe if im scumbuds with aa it would make sense for me to be like nah nvm, but i dont think theres another scum. i can maybe see that me putting some doubt on aa and then going ughhh guess ill have to lynch him now right before deadline and then him flipping town to buy me some town cred but mmt didnt actually bring that up sooooooooooo i really dont know rn and i have to go to work

# ? Jul 10, 2016 19:10

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

Six hours to deadline and I want this poo poo figured out.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 19:53

Soaring Kestrel: Nov 7, 2009; For Whiterock.; Fun Shoe

So as far as this jimson/mmt theory goes I'm not convinced; I went back and read a bit of that day, and I don't think there was really a ton of suspicion on MMT at the time. Jimson's "case" was so weak and I feel like a scum/scum fight would have been better thought out. It just feels like a mediocre fakeclaim from Jimson.

I also took some time and read the evolution of AA's opinions late that day from voting Jimson to voting MMT and it is the most fake sounding thing I have ever read. I don't know how this post comes from a town perspective and I actually mentioned that later in the day - there wasn't any content surrounding his votes on scum at all.

flerp's posts feel more honest to me. I would rather vote AA today; I think he's the most likely to be scum tonight.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 20:29

votefinder: Jul 6, 2010; scoop scoop

Votecount for Day 7 :beerpal:

Anomalous Amalgam (1): Moatillata

flerp (1): Murmur Twin

Murmur Twin (1): Anomalous Amalgam

Not Voting (3): flerp, Flying Leatherman, SirSamVimes :rubshands:

With 6 alive, it's 4 votes to lynch. The current deadline is July 10^th, 2016 at 9 p.m. EDT -- that's in about 5 hours, 12 minutes.

"And what does a cornered rat do? That's easy. Anything it can to stay alive.

That's one of the things I don't like about Shine. It gives those rats more options."

# ? Jul 10, 2016 20:47

Soaring Kestrel: Nov 7, 2009; For Whiterock.; Fun Shoe

##vote AA

# ? Jul 10, 2016 21:02

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

Mmt you really feel that flerp is the better dunk?

# ? Jul 10, 2016 21:20

Anomalous Amalgam: Feb 13, 2015; by Nyc_Tattoo; Doctor Rope

Flying Leatherman posted:

So as far as this jimson/mmt theory goes I'm not convinced; I went back and read a bit of that day, and I don't think there was really a ton of suspicion on MMT at the time. Jimson's "case" was so weak and I feel like a scum/scum fight would have been better thought out. It just feels like a mediocre fakeclaim from Jimson.

I also took some time and read the evolution of AA's opinions late that day from voting Jimson to voting MMT and it is the most fake sounding thing I have ever read. I don't know how this post comes from a town perspective and I actually mentioned that later in the day - there wasn't any content surrounding his votes on scum at all.

flerp's posts feel more honest to me. I would rather vote AA today; I think he's the most likely to be scum tonight.

Even so, you think I would systematically vote out all of my teammates on the off chance the cop gets kept alive?

I'm alive because scum want me alive for this very reason. The reasoning that I must be scum because I'm not dead is flawed and relies on scum playing some binary game where if x criteria is met then y event must happen, where in all actuality, keeping me alive is beneficial to them because it increases the odds of a mislynch in lylo.

I've been honest and open about my role and my opinions regarding the game.

I used my only shine N1 to cop FL.

I will be so pissed if I copped the godfather, but I honestly think MMT is more likely, because the play involving Jimson truly makes little to no sense. It seems like a gambit that doesnt require a lot of orchestration it just needs to be believable enough which they were.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 21:22

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

Even so, you think I would systematically vote out all of my teammates on the off chance the cop gets kept alive?

I'm alive because scum want me alive for this very reason. The reasoning that I must be scum because I'm not dead is flawed and relies on scum playing some binary game where if x criteria is met then y event must happen, where in all actuality, keeping me alive is beneficial to them because it increases the odds of a mislynch in lylo.

I've been honest and open about my role and my opinions regarding the game.

I used my only shine N1 to cop FL.

I will be so pissed if I copped the godfather, but I honestly think MMT is more likely, because the play involving Jimson truly makes little to no sense. It seems like a gambit that doesnt require a lot of orchestration it just needs to be believable enough which they were.

Jimson voted off all his teammates? All you need to do is make it to lylo with the votes. Nobody is saying that you're scum because you're still alive. At least that's not my reasoning.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 21:25

Anomalous Amalgam: Feb 13, 2015; by Nyc_Tattoo; Doctor Rope

Moatillata posted:

Jimson voted off all his teammates? All you need to do is make it to lylo with the votes. Nobody is saying that you're scum because you're still alive. At least that's not my reasoning.

Well, if you're truly town, you'll need to scrutinize anyone pushing for my flip today tomorrow, because I guarantee you I'm town.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 21:30

SirSamVimes: Jul 21, 2008; ~* Challenge *~

Woah I woke up and now it's 5 hours til deadline.

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

Well, if you're truly town, you'll need to scrutinize anyone pushing for my flip today tomorrow, because I guarantee you I'm town.

Why even say this? "I guarantee you I'm town" means nothing.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 22:19

Anomalous Amalgam: Feb 13, 2015; by Nyc_Tattoo; Doctor Rope

SirSamVimes posted:

Woah I woke up and now it's 5 hours til deadline.

Why even say this? "I guarantee you I'm town" means nothing.

In the event of my flip. Also actually contribute something, yeah?

# ? Jul 10, 2016 22:47

SirSamVimes: Jul 21, 2008; ~* Challenge *~

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

In the event of my flip. Also actually contribute something, yeah?

Okay. ##vote aa

# ? Jul 10, 2016 22:51

Murmur Twin: Feb 11, 2003; An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

I am somewhere between buzzed and drunk (thanks in part to Kashuno) at the moment and am posting from a friend's house but am doing my best to be here leading into deadline.

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

Even so, you think I would systematically vote out all of my teammates on the off chance the cop gets kept alive?

I'm alive because scum want me alive for this very reason. The reasoning that I must be scum because I'm not dead is flawed and relies on scum playing some binary game where if x criteria is met then y event must happen, where in all actuality, keeping me alive is beneficial to them because it increases the odds of a mislynch in lylo.

I've been honest and open about my role and my opinions regarding the game.

I used my only shine N1 to cop FL.

I will be so pissed if I copped the godfather, but I honestly think MMT is more likely, because the play involving Jimson truly makes little to no sense. It seems like a gambit that doesnt require a lot of orchestration it just needs to be believable enough which they were.

(a) Surely you acknowledge that another reason that you're alive could very well be that you're the last scum?
(b) Is there anything about my interactions with Jimson that make you think it was anything other than my catching scum?

Anomalous Amalgam posted:

Well, if you're truly town, you'll need to scrutinize anyone pushing for my flip today tomorrow, because I guarantee you I'm town.

I feel like AA's thought process focuses primarily on why we should keep him alive, with "Murmur is the scum" as an afterthought.

flerp posted:

not rly it does legit feel like a stretch but

anyways idk the vote onto me feels reactionary, and it, to me, feels like mmt is more "how dare you call me scum" then "how dare you think aa is town." likewise i dont rly get how that post makes me scum. like maybe if im scumbuds with aa it would make sense for me to be like nah nvm, but i dont think theres another scum. i can maybe see that me putting some doubt on aa and then going ughhh guess ill have to lynch him now right before deadline and then him flipping town to buy me some town cred but mmt didnt actually bring that up sooooooooooo i really dont know rn and i have to go to work

It was way less "how dare you call me scum" and way more "I don't believe that you believe what you're saying". Flerp went from blending in through most of this game to having a lot to say about how he thought AA was town (for trying to move the vote away from Jimson) in a way that doesn't ring genuine to me.

Moatillata posted:

Mmt you really feel that flerp is the better dunk?

I think that it's one (or possibly both?) of flerp or AA for the last scum and would vote either way. I don't think we're in LYLO yet, which helps. I can hammer if people feel that's right, or we can keep it open if people prefer, but I will say that I'm at a friend's and kind of feel like I'm being a crappy guest by playing Mafia so would kind of prefer to hammer.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:05

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

So wait, you're at kash's house right now?

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:24

Murmur Twin: Feb 11, 2003; An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Different friend! I have been bouncing around Boston all day

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:30

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

I'm pretty jealous of you rn. Have fun

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:46

Moatillata: Dec 13, 2006; Maintain.

https://youtu.be/6zVRrrLKYFs

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:46

Anomalous Amalgam: Feb 13, 2015; by Nyc_Tattoo; Doctor Rope

If we're not at lylo then hammer me. I don't think I'll be able to convince you all otherwise.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:47

Anomalous Amalgam: Feb 13, 2015; by Nyc_Tattoo; Doctor Rope

However my suspicion is as follows ssv > mmt > moat > flerp

Ssv came in sniping and not contributing anytbing else.

I still think mmt and jimson could have made a gambit together.

Moat claimed to be bartender but keep in mind scum had a brewer of their own, and they seem to be a bit obtuse about other aspects in play.

Flerp has come off more genuine in their reads lately, as opposed to the baseless aggro from previous days.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:51

Anomalous Amalgam: Feb 13, 2015; by Nyc_Tattoo; Doctor Rope

Also FL I got a town result on start of game, so unless they are godfather... which would really miff me, then they are cleared.

# ? Jul 10, 2016 23:52

Murmur Twin: Feb 11, 2003; An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

##vote AA :redhammer:

# ? Jul 11, 2016 00:07

votefinder: Jul 6, 2010; scoop scoop

Anomalous Amalgam :boom:

# ? Jul 11, 2016 00:24

votefinder: Jul 6, 2010; scoop scoop

Votecount for Day 7 :beerpal:

Anomalous Amalgam (4): Moatillata, Flying Leatherman, SirSamVimes, Murmur Twin

Murmur Twin (1): Anomalous Amalgam

flerp (0): Murmur Twin, ~~Murmur Twin~~

Not Voting (1): flerp :rubshands:

With 6 alive, it's 4 votes to lynch. The current deadline is July 10^th, 2016 at 9 p.m. EDT -- that's in about 1 hour, 26 minutes.

"And what does a cornered rat do? That's easy. Anything it can to stay alive.

That's one of the things I don't like about Shine. It gives those rats more options."

# ? Jul 11, 2016 00:33

Podima: Nov 4, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Final Post Count for Day 7:

pre:

User			Posts
Moatillata 		269
flerp 			203
Murmur Twin 		100
SirSamVimes 		85
Flying Leatherman 	61

Everyone but Moatillata did not make at least 10 posts today, and is ON NOTICE for the next day! I believe in you all, you can do it! :nono:

# ? Jul 11, 2016 00:41

Podima: Nov 4, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

She had been offering herself up for days now. Her dedication to the part was impressive, really - and people finally took notice.

When they finally got around to dragging her outside, she decided she didn't really want to die after all. Too late for her, though. Saying things like that can be hazardous to your health, you know.

quote:

She was excited about her nickname, once. Seemed like the sort of thing that would live on for years after she finally bit it - imposing, terrifying, the works. People had better watch out for 'The Menace' coming their way!

Sadly, a humble comic strip about a rascal by the name of Dennis twenty years hence would squelch any chance of her legacy being even remotely memorable. Them's the breaks!

Also she could drink Shine and touch things to learn about their owners.That was kind of neat too. Seemed useful in theory, anyhow!

Anomalous Amalgam, aka Maura 'The Menace' Featherston, Outfit-Aligned Vanilla {Cop}, was executed on Day 7!

Night 7 begins now. You have ~16 hours from this post (before 7/9 12:00 PM EDT) to get me your night actions. Please let me know if you have an action and are not using it.

If you are cool with the night ending early once all actions are in and processed (i.e. could happen at any nonspecific time), please PM me with "##shortnight". I will only do this if the entire game unanimously agrees.

The Outfit will continue its death march tomorrow, 7/11, by 1:30 PM EDT.

# ? Jul 11, 2016 00:43

Podima: Nov 4, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Nah. Nah. You're running out of warm bodies at this point. Maybe you should do better this time. Al Capone's baleful eye is upon you!

quote:

"The really unfair thing about selling someone out is that no matter how sensible it was at the time, nobody will ever trust you again."

Carmine ruefully knocked back yet another drink, wishing he had realized that important lesson earlier. Sure, the Genna family was on their way out already, and he might have gone down with them if he had stuck around. But maybe not! And after all, what had he gotten for going to the Outfit with everything he knew? Not much more than a terrible nickname.

"You know, I could have been someone big. I had the know-how and the connections. But the sad thing is - and this is what did me in - I was smart enough to see which way the wind was blowing. Sure, the Genna family did go down just like I knew they would, but here I am now. Just another Outfit bootlicker."

Carmine narrowed his eyes, swirling what was left of his drink in the glass. If only he could get his hands on some Shine - then maybe people would finally respect him for who he was, instead of fixating on a choice he made once upon a time.