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I’m starting this thread because of a 2 page derail that came up in the “Irrationally Irritating Movie Moments” thread. Apparently, people still have very strong opinions about this show and wildly different interpretations of the characters, their motivations, the underlying message and certainly what they consider to be “rational" regarding the many was it can be interpreted. I searched and couldn't find a running Breaking Bad thread I started a re-watch myself recently and am up to Season 4. It’s been 4 or 5 years since I binged through it and realized I’d only ever watched it once. It’s not one of those shows like The Wire or The Sopranos where there’ s a million different subtle things you notice each time, at least for me, but I am finding myself having different takeaways the second time through and when I noticed some irrational things that bugged me, I brought them up. I’m going to swipe some of my own posts to save a little time and get us rolling here and I’m not sure how “technical” I need to be in terms of S1, E3 and doing it entirely in a play by play fashion, but I don’t think that’s needed to just discuss the show. Breaking Bad: the coincidences near and at the end of season 2 bugged the gently caress out of me. Jessie hooks up with his neighbor who just happens to be a recovering addict. Walter just happens to meet the girl's father in a random bar after her OD. The same girl's father just happens to be an air traffic controller who, due to his grief, just happens to gently caress up at his really important job and the plane he just happens to cause to wreck just happens to crash over Walter's house and scatter debris everywhere. It all seemed like a bit too much of "just happened to". I get what they were going for: showing how Walter's actions lead to collateral damage and a butterfly effect of sorts but the show often managed this sort of thing better and to greater effect. I like trying to pinpoint the exact moment that Walter became unsympathetic, especially on the re-watch, because I recall starting out rooting for him and can't remember the moment where he turned into a rear end in a top hat. Some argue he was always an rear end in a top hat, and he probably was. But In the beginning Walt was an underpaid public school teacher who got cancer for no loving reason (it's implied by Skyler it was work related), he had a special needs child, a baby on the way and absolutely insurmountable health care bills. His best friend and colleague got rich in part from Walt's own ideas, which was part of the reason he didn’t want to accept his money. I rooted for Walt because he was hosed over so much and then just said "to hell with it" and went about making money the only way he knew how doing the one thing he was great at. He was a loser in the eyes of society, underpaid for his talent, had to supplement his income working in a car wash and then, when faced with his own imminent mortality, said "gently caress it. I'm going for it". I like how ambiguous and rich the show is dealing with shades of grey. Nobody is "good" or "evil" in an absolute sense, even the cartel members and the Chicken Man, and I absolutely found Walter White to be sympathetic. Hank is another good example. Skylar too. No one is pure and good all the time. Maybe Walter Jr. is the exception. Even the "Evil Bad Guys" were shown to have families and loved ones, and their motivations rendered clear. I absolutely found Walt sympathetic for a while and can't see how anyone can view the show and think it doesn't deal in gray shades of morality. It's almost the entire point of the show and none of the characters are presented in absolute terms. Who is innocent here? Who is guilty? In some ways, I think the show is an indictment (or an acknowledgement of) of capitalism, our broken health care system and a peek into collateral damage/The Butterfly Effect. How everything is interconnected and every decision affects someone else. Look at how in Season 4 Walt's drug profits, once Skyler signs on, are used to pay for his rehabilitation. Or the money laundering website that Flynn unknowingly set up ties into the skeevy lawyer. It seems on a second viewing to be an indictment of greed coupled with the laws of necessity. What we NEED as it relates to what we WANT, the ways we change in the pursuit of both and attempt to discern and ultimately rationalize the behavior that those pursuits lead us into. For instance, I'm noticing that Jessie gradually becomes more like Walter, Walter more like Gus, Skyler more like Ted, Gale wants to be more like Walter, etc. and how everyone operated within their own self justifying view of what is moral. Saul and Mike seem to make no bones about who and what they are which is why they're great. Hank's character has come more to the forefront on my re-watch too. He has more nuance and development than I picked up on the first time and he's become my favorite character and the most interesting arc for me now. More on him I guess if the thread grows legs, so to speak. Lastly, one other irrationally irritating coincidence that bugged me (since that's why I started this thread) was when Jessie just happens to hook up and deal to the sister of the kid that murdered his street dealer friend, Combo. Which, again, I think reinforces my opinion that the show is all about societal interconnection and the way that our decisions impact others lives, even in ways we never see. Just that if I have any issues with the show at all, and I think it's great, it's that a few of the coincidences feel forced seem a bit heavy handed for the sake of dramatic narrative. So let's discuss Breaking Bad I guess if anyone feels like it.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:35
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BiggerBoat posted:
He became unsympathetic the moment he, despite having a family, opted to become a drug dealer rather than "take charity". I always rooted for him, but in the same way I rooted for Tony Soprano and Vic Mackey.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:47
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Posting to bookmark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SEL27xiJGQ
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Jul 14, 2016 21:49
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-Blackadder- posted:He became unsympathetic the moment he, despite having a family, opted to become a drug dealer rather than "take charity". I don't know. For me it was more gradual but I can see that view.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:58
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For me I was just like, wow you gonna let a dumb kid die in the bed she made. You're supposed to be a teacher. gently caress you Walt.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:50
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I love how Hank changes from the initial perception of him (which I think is strongly informed by how Walt apparently feels about him) - he appears to be a goofy loudmouth who thinks he's a badass but is just a joke, but as the show goes on it comes out how much of his swagger is to cover up his very human fear. Part of it comes from his idea of what masculinity should be, part of it is a coping mechanism, all of it is a front because at the end of the day he's a middle-aged man in a rocky, childless marriage, unable to communicate with or even face up to the problems of his neurotic wife, both of them desperately trying to keep up appearances (he's far closer to Walt than either of them would ever think). And it's that which makes him so interesting, because when poo poo really does down - confronting Tuco, going down to El Paso, attacked by the twins etc - you see that his fear doesn't prevent him from doing his job/what is right. When he finds Tortuga's head on the tortoise he freaks out and the others mock him for it, but when it explodes and people are lying around bleeding and dying and he's terrified he still rushes about doing his best to save people. He puts on this act of being macho and feels like he is a fraud for doing it, but it's his actions during crisis/fear that really make him stand out as a real hero. His final scene plays this out too, and ironically he doesn't seem at all scared when it happens because now he seems to realize it's over and that gives him the calm he needs. His comment to Walt is about as good a closing line as you can get, and it really says something that his fate has such impact considering what a boor he appeared to be in the first episode. Basically I really dig Hank!
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Jul 15, 2016 01:59
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Jerusalem posted:he's a middle-aged man in a rocky, childless marriage rocky you say?
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Jul 15, 2016 02:39
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syscall girl posted:rocky you say? 
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Jul 15, 2016 02:51
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The acting in this show is really great. I can't think of one actor that's distracting, which is really saying something for a TV show. I'm loving picking up on the weird tension between Hank and Walt when they discuss Heisenberg and the gambling story. It's played so you can't tell if Hank just instinctively smells a rat or if it's filmed that way to emphasize Walter's paranoia. That suspicious look Hank keeps giving him is really ambiguous, like he knows something's not adding up from years of listening to criminals lie.
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Jul 15, 2016 15:51
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syscall girl posted:rocky you say? They're minerals!
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Jul 15, 2016 16:36
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Hughmoris posted:They're minerals! What was that all about anyway? I honestly forget. Was it just some OCD boredom deal or spiritual new age healing thing he went on? Or were the minerals and crystals symbolic of his meth cook hunt? And in S4, I forget which episode, why was Mike in the back of the one chicken truck? Just guarding it? There were several trucks. How'd he happen to be in the one that got hijacked? eidt: Holy poo poo, Bill Burr as the fake EPA agent. Never noticed that.
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Jul 15, 2016 17:08
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BiggerBoat posted:Was it just some OCD boredom deal? Yea, he was pissed that he couldn't walk/be normal, so he latched onto an obsession he could distract himself with and also use as a way to subconsciously punish Marie. I was so glad when he recovered, because I started to really hate Hank for putting Marie through all that crap.
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Jul 15, 2016 18:33
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BiggerBoat posted:
Whoa? I love me some Bill Burr
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Jul 15, 2016 19:43
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syscall girl posted:Whoa? He was cast as a pawn for Skyler to strong arm the owner of the car wash she insisted on buying. Can't believe I didn't recognize him. Speaking of that, watching Skyler evolve as a character is really interesting the second time through. Watching her begin to embrace corruption, starting with cooking books for Ted and then later by applying her skills at laundering money really echoes Walt's journey in a lot of ways. They're both only really good at ONE thing. You watch Skyler gradually embrace where she's at with her job and her marriage, begin to apply her practical skills out of sheer desperation (and revenge/power), and then even begin practicing and rehearsing lies and beginning to "break bad" (including banging Ted) which basically seems to amount to "doing what you WANT to do, couple it with what you HAVE to do and then apply what you KNOW how to do." She moves from fear to acceptance to rationalization and proactivity so gradually you hardly notice the character growth. From there, she moves into studying, cunning and planning to execution and stubbornness, and basically becoming Walter, which is a really fascinating character arc.
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Jul 15, 2016 20:20
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Posting to bump since I don't have a good response to your good post
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Jul 16, 2016 22:55
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Fake edit: going through old saved gifs
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Jul 16, 2016 22:59
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I started rewatching it this weekend and am up to near the end of season 2. The thing that gets to me every rewatch is wondering how Hank never even thought of Walt as a suspect until he stumbled onto irrefutable evidence (side note: how stupid was Walt to leave something like that around? Gus was right in season 2 - Walt isn't a cautious person at all). Like the whole way through the first couple seasons the profile of Heisenberg is someone great at chemistry, inexperienced as a criminal, and is assumed (I think) to have stolen equipment from Walt's lab. I know it's mostly not wanting to think like that about family, and I can excuse giving Walt the benefit of the doubt the first couple incidents, but it eventually gets pretty ridiculous. How could they not even discuss the possibility that it might be Walt? For all Hank's good qualities, he wasn't really that great at his job. The Tuco thing happened by chance, and the one of the few things he did get right (Pinkman and the trailer) he screwed up by going to the junkyard alone and then further later by beating up Jesse. He was also right about Gus, but could never actually prove anything until it was too late. Overall I think Walt's success had far less to do with his intelligence, cunning and ruthlessness than it did with the DEA's incompetence.
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Jul 18, 2016 11:09
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The moment Walt became unsympathetic to me was when he had a choice between delivering lodsadrugs to Gus or being at the hospital for his daughter's birth. I knew what choice he'd make, but I was still rooting for him to turn around at the last second and go be human again.
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Jul 18, 2016 13:26
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I think the thing where Hank never suspected Walt makes perfect sense. Hank KNEW Walter. He knew he was a big old science geek and just a regular old nerdy guy so Walt was able to fly under the radar. Plus, regarding the missing lab equipment, Hank already had Jessie in his sights and had developed tunnel vision with that. He figured it was probably Jessie that ripped off the lab. Later, he focuses all of his investigation on Gus, so he's this close. Also, I think Hank's sympathy towards Walter's illness probably clouded his vision too. Around season 3 or 4 though, you begin to see Hank's bullshit detector going off whenever he's speaking with Walt; almost an instinctual thing, like especially after the gambling money story..Hank's used to hearing people lie so you can see him sense it, but the fact that Walt was a close family member and friend blocked his ability to put two and two together, even though you can see him smelling a rat. And, yeah, Walter got lucky a lot but he also made his own luck several times. Often he's remarkably able to improvise and think on his feet like gassing the RV and coming up with the ricen plan. His hubris and his ego are what really gets in his way and undoes him most of the time. He was the one that stupidly planted the seed in Hank's brain that "Heisenberg might still be out there" instead of just letting Hank hang it on Gale and Gus. Then again, safe to say that if Gus got nailed, he'd sure as poo poo take Walt and Jessie down with him or cut a deal and Walter probably knows that.
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Jul 18, 2016 16:12
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I think the moment that my perspective re: Walt changed was him feeding Walt Jr. tequila shots against Hanks misgivings. Before that point, you think it's all for the family- after that moment, you see his motivations are really more about remaining in control, family be damned. He's less concerned about Walt Jr./Flynn  getting sick than he is about Hank being an obstacle.
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Jul 18, 2016 19:20
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Harold Stassen posted:I think the moment that my perspective re: Walt changed was him feeding Walt Jr. tequila shots against Hanks misgivings. Before that point, you think it's all for the family- after that moment, you see his motivations are really more about remaining in control, family be damned. He's less concerned about Walt Jr./Flynn I think that was born out of fear, desperation and the begrudging acknowledgment of Walter's own sense of his impending mortality. He struck me as a guy who took the low, altruistic, "easy" lower paying road and who, upon realizing his clock was ticking, began to assert himself because "drat the consequences" at that point. What consequences? He's going to DIE. Walter was the living embodiment of someone with nothing left to lose who never channeled his talent in ways that would lead to riches and who watched his friend and (I think) his mistress/college sweetheart cash in on his knowledge, marry each other, sell out and then not only get REWARDED for it but, in his mind anyway, also had the AUDACITY to offer him charity for something that was rightly his. I don't get the sense that Walt had an inherent problem with charity, in and of itself, but that, again, from his standpoint, he had a problem with where it was coming from and said "No. I'm taking MY shot here. I'm gonna die anyway. I'll SHOW you what I can do". Of course then he was quickly in over his head and, eventually, the lack of money gave way to having TOO MUCH of it, he got trapped and found a whole new slew of problems he wasn't equipped to handle. For instance, If you watch season 2 (I think it is) when they tell Walt him he's in remission, he almost looks disappointed and SAD at the news, unsure how to take it, but yet his family is celebrating and throwing a party. I think that's what the drinking scene with Walter Jr was about. Walt was sure his time clock was punched and, when it wasn't, while everyone else was celebrating, he was actually distraught and, in a way, powerless. He's not celebrating the news. So he gets sad, angry, mean drunk and exerts his power by using the closest tool at his disposal, his son, and the closest target, Hank, which he immediately regrets once he sobers up. Walter is very much a victim in this story. He starts out that way and it's the entire catalyst for the whole show : "You have (lung) CANCER. You're gonna die". Even though he never even smoked. He's broke, he's a loser, has no meaningful health insurance, an unplanned baby on the way, a handicapped kid, etc. etc. and sets about making some money. Bolded above for skimming purposes and emphasis mine but I think, at it's heart, the whole show is an indictment of capitalism, drug laws, law enforcement and America's god awful health care system. At its heart anyway.
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Jul 18, 2016 20:09
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I have to admit that even to this day I'm not entirely sure what the extent of Walt's contribution to Gray Matter actually was. I've seen frequent references to Gretchen and Elliot profiting off of Walt's work and that's certainly the impression Walt gives but the few times it's actually directly addressed on the show Walt's take on things is challenged. Gretchen is appalled when Walt claims that, reminding him that HE left the company (and her) and seeming bewildered by the notion that he thinks they stole/used his work. When they appear on that TV show in the final season (and this may be purely PR spin) they insist that the extent of Walt's contribution was the creation of the name of the company, and all the breakthroughs made at the company were developed by Elliot and the people he employed - Walt COULD have been a gigantic part of that, the equal of Elliot in every way, but he walked away before they could really get started. Plus we get a very brief flashback post-leaving Gray Matter where we learn that Walt was working at the Los Alamos labs and making very good money, and he's very much the controlling, somewhat egotistical guy we see him develop into (he feels like the more dominant partner to Skyler). I do get the feeling that Walt had a long history of feeling unappreciated/superior to everybody around him, and after he dumped Gretchen and sold his shares in Gray Matter he kinda assumed they would flop without him, and when they succeeded he angrily justified it as they MUST have made use of his research (plus Elliot stole HIS girl!). I imagine his ego caused issues at Los Alamos too and he burned enough bridges that he was reduced to having to work as a Chemistry teacher at a High School (or maybe he was just so stubborn that his pride insisted he take that job rather than go hat in hand to another company) and then the years basically cowed him to the point that he's the pathetic sadsack we see at the start of season 1 - his lung cancer gives him the freedom/excuse he needs to "break bad" and it ends up exacerbating all those old ego/pride problems that hosed things up for him in his youth to the point that he becomes the Meth Kingpin of New Mexico.
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Jul 18, 2016 23:36
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BiggerBoat posted:He was cast as a pawn for Skyler to strong arm the owner of the car wash she insisted on buying. Can't believe I didn't recognize him. I mostly disagree with this. She is the perfect foil of Walt - he uses his family as a façade to himself and others to excuse his behavior, while she uses corruption to genuinely protect her family. She is in an unwinnable position - it's like the line in OitNB line, "bitches in here doing 15 years for lettin' their boyfriends do deals in the kitchen 'cause they was afraid of getting beat if they said no." Skyler doesn't have the threat of violence, but she has the very real threat of losing her family - something Walt impresses upon her by kidnapping their daughter. There's nothing in common with their character motivations. Walt is a sympathetic villain and Skyler is an unlikable hero.
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Jul 18, 2016 23:42
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I feel like the OP should include links to the old threads, they're fun to read in a morbid way
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Jul 19, 2016 00:23
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I think Gretchen and Elliot minimizing his involvement with Grey Matter was purely about optics- he was confirmed to be Heisenberg at that point. Had he died before it was revealed- and if anyone were to ask them- I'm sure they would've given an accurate appraisal of his contributions. Or Elliot's birthday party in S1, for example. They're bigging him up to get him to accept their payment for his treatment.
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Jul 19, 2016 00:30
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Last Chance posted:I feel like the OP should include links to the old threads, they're fun to read in a morbid way I remember lots of calling Skyler a Thundercunt
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Jul 19, 2016 00:33
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Len posted:I remember lots of calling Skyler a Thundercunt and loving  ad nauseamextremely obnoxious but hey
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Jul 19, 2016 00:51
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Harold Stassen posted:I think Gretchen and Elliot minimizing his involvement with Grey Matter was purely about optics- he was confirmed to be Heisenberg at that point. Had he died before it was revealed- and if anyone were to ask them- I'm sure they would've given an accurate appraisal of his contributions. Or Elliot's birthday party in S1, for example. They're bigging him up to get him to accept their payment for his treatment. It's been awhile since I watched it so I don't recall the exact wording, but I think in season 2 Gretchen meets with Walt about him lying to Skyler and Walt has a little outburst about how Gray Matter built its fortune on his research and she looks aghast and says something like,"You can't really believe that, can you?" - just the very concept seemed completely out of left field to her. Their TV interview post the Heisenberg outing does feel like they're in damage control mode and perhaps overstating how little a role he had in their lives, but I do think that Walt either deliberately misleads (or genuinely believes) that he played a far bigger part in Gray Matter's success than he actually did. Not that he wasn't brilliant or capable of contributing if he had stuck around, but that he can't accept the notion that they were not only successful without him but WILDLY successful.
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Jul 19, 2016 00:52
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I finally started watching this show last month and reached season 4. I am loving it and while I do know a few outcomes to the series due to people spoiling the ending, I am still enjoying it greatly. I see a lot of mentions of Walt letting Jane die, but while that is true, it looked more like he was in shock at seeing her choke to death to really react. He still to blame since he accidentally caused her to turn over, but it not like he was trying to cover her mouth so she couldn't breath. Do generally like all the episodes, even if the Fly one seem to get a little too wacky at times with Walt trying to kill the fly.
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Jul 19, 2016 06:31
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In that Jane scene, I remember Walt seeing her choking and making an instinctual move to help her before stopping and reconsidering (if she dies then it removes the obstacle between him and Jesse) then just standing and watching her choke to death. To be fair he does seem to agonize over it, but he still (from what I remember) makes the conscious choice to let her die.
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Jul 19, 2016 08:27
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Jerusalem posted:In that Jane scene, I remember Walt seeing her choking and making an instinctual move to help her before stopping and reconsidering (if she dies then it removes the obstacle between him and Jesse) then just standing and watching her choke to death. To be fair he does seem to agonize over it, but he still (from what I remember) makes the conscious choice to let her die. This is how I remember it as well. Agonize or not he made a choice.
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Jul 19, 2016 08:49
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Jerusalem posted:It's been awhile since I watched it so I don't recall the exact wording, but I think in season 2 Gretchen meets with Walt about him lying to Skyler and Walt has a little outburst about how Gray Matter built its fortune on his research and she looks aghast and says something like,"You can't really believe that, can you?" - just the very concept seemed completely out of left field to her. Yeah I get the feeling that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And regardless of his actual contributions, he was a co-owner at one point and definitely missed out on at least several hundred million dollars by cashing out way too early.
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Jul 19, 2016 14:37
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Okay I am liking season 4 a lot, but man the opening with Jesse playing Rage with a lightgun was so stupid it took me out of the fact it suppose to be a dramatic scene of him re-living killing Gale by playing a videogame. Especially Rage, a mediocre game that is largely forgotten at this point.
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Jul 22, 2016 21:41
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Rirse posted:Okay I am liking season 4 a lot, but man the opening with Jesse playing Rage with a lightgun was so stupid it took me out of the fact it suppose to be a dramatic scene of him re-living killing Gale by playing a videogame. Especially Rage, a mediocre game that is largely forgotten at this point. Jesse's taste in games isn't that great (see him and Brock playing Sonic 2006.. terrible.. poor kid). But the Metacritic score of the game he's playing isn't really the point of that scene
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Jul 22, 2016 21:46
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Just finished my re-watch. i surprised how much I'd forgotten (Lydia, Todd, the White Supremacists) so it was actually enjoyable truly not remembering several major plot points. I thought the final episode was actually a little bit flat to be honest and ended too quickly. The mechanical machine gun turret working so well was a bit much but I liked the way they established it by showing Walt "parking wrong" earlier. The main thing I took away from the re-watch was, again, watching Walter's descent from reasonably sympathetic victim in the beginning into full blown psychopath by the end. I still can't pinpoint the exact moment he became unsympathetic. Some say "when he started dealing meth" but I don't think it's that cut and dried. I was still a little unclear on the poisoning of Brock, how and when Walt pulled it off (I know he used the flower) and how Jessie put it all together. Also, when and how did Walt get the ricen into Lydia's sugar packet? If I remember right, there was more than one packet in the tray and it appeared to be sealed. How'd he know she'd pick that exact one? For as much poo poo as Skyler takes, I actually had forgotten how much I disliked Marie, but by the end she was incredibly sympathetic and quite reasonable. One of the real strengths of this show is how practically everyone had an arc. That's hard to do in any medium and is particularly well done here. Even Walt, Jr., who I didn't really perceive as having an arc at all the first time I watched, went from Daddy apologist and hating his Mom, to confused, to finally just wishing his piece of poo poo Dad would die and wanting nothing to do with him. I think the "Rage" video game scene was more of a set up and a precursor for the shootout Jessie finds himself in later and was a glimpse into his growing fear, anger and paranoia. I didn't recognize the game so thanks for that but, if anything, the term "Rage" really seemed to embody Jessie by I guess midway through season 4 so maybe it was intentional.
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Jul 22, 2016 23:00
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The Lydia stevia thing was, is and probably always will be the dumbest thing about the finale.
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Jul 22, 2016 23:22
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I honestly think Walt lost his soul and became Heisenberg when he traded in his Aztec. It was one the last links of his old life, a sad reminder of having to settle for a joke of a car, a joke of a job, etc.
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Jul 23, 2016 01:18
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BiggerBoat posted:I was still a little unclear on the poisoning of Brock, how and when Walt pulled it off (I know he used the flower) and how Jessie put it all together. Also, when and how did Walt get the ricen into Lydia's sugar packet? If I remember right, there was more than one packet in the tray and it appeared to be sealed. How'd he know she'd pick that exact one? She had a specific brand she preferred, so he made sure the poison was the only pack of it at that table.
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Jul 23, 2016 04:44
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Jesse put it together when he realized that Huell had swiped his pot, and most likely also swiped the ricin cigarette as ordered by Walt.
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Jul 23, 2016 05:04
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Last Chance posted:I feel like the OP should include links to the old threads, they're fun to read in a morbid way I couldn't find them so i started a new one. Post them if you have them. sweetmercifulcrap posted:Jesse put it together when he realized that Huell had swiped his pot, and most likely also swiped the ricin cigarette as ordered by Walt. OK, but I still can't piece it together. Also, it seemed like Saul was in on it too somehow. I never managed to fit it together. Huell's the big fat bodyguard, right? A_Raving_Loon posted:She had a specific brand she preferred, so he made sure the poison was the only pack of it at that table. Maybe I need to look at it again but I seem to recall there being several packets of it. Even still, and assuming you're correct and if I'm remembering right, Todd and Lydia sat at a different table than they normally did. I remember that specifically because Lydia always sat by the window and wanted to talk back to back but this was clearly a 4 top. I guess I can buy that Walt ricened up a packet, glued it back together and had it on him, so OK, but that was not Lydia's usual table. He couldn't have slid a premade pack of it into the tray because she'd already ordered her tea and was talking with Todd before Walt sat down. How'd he know she'd sit there? Maybe I need to rewatch the scene again and see if it's explained.
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Jul 23, 2016 06:01
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