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So Scuba.com used this to advertise for Father's Day....well done Scuba.com
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Jun 21, 2016 03:09
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To be honest I definitely wouldn't mind being challenged more, and the way things are done here is definitely check-listy. I'm sure our instructor will want a checkout interview after all is said and done, so I'll bring what you said up as possible avenue for future DMTs. Did you remove the DMT section from their manuals? I guess if you're trying to keep students on their toes that'd be the best way about it. Any other advice I could pass on?
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Jun 21, 2016 11:45
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It wasn't secret, but way back when I did my OW, my trainers were ex-navy guys, and they did a few sneaky things. The best one was, after the first day in the pool, at any time you had to ready for one of the instructors to sneak up behind you, rip your mask off and drop it on the bottom. You had to find it, don it, and clear it by yourself. I loved this! It was super fun, and you never knew when it was coming. Since then, no one I know has done that in their OW. Sometimes I tell people about that, and they are SHOCKED.
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Jun 21, 2016 12:15
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My OW instructor was an old navy guy as well, and had us doing a bunch of stuff blindfolded when I went to take my AOW with him. Blackout mask swim from corner to corner of our pool, setting up your gear completely blind, etc. It was good stuff, but definitely stemmed from his time/experience as a navy EOD diver/minesweeper. My shop owner now is far more chill than that, despite being a former army diver.
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Jun 21, 2016 12:23
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Was diving with one of the old boys in it club over the weekend. Really knowledgeable but kind of a dick about instructing. Interesting diving with someone who still refers to nitrox as devil gas and prefers not to have a computer so he can dictate his own deco times. Also who regularly has 12 pints of Guinness before diving the next day.
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Jun 21, 2016 12:40
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MrNemo posted:Also who regularly has 12 pints of Guinness before diving the next day. I presume he is often mistaken for some sort of cetacean while underwater? And his poor kidneys and liver. I had an uncle who drank Guiness by the gallon. Premature cardiovascular death.
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Jun 21, 2016 15:39
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Trivia posted:To be honest I definitely wouldn't mind being challenged more, and the way things are done here is definitely check-listy. Instructors are bound by all manner of things; not least is the employer who it trying to keep the lights on while you do two months of diving and pay just $10.00 a day (or whatever you paid for it divided by the number of days you go diving). I prefer the intensive course to get the DM rating, and then turning an actual renewed and insured DM out there to get their own experience where they want to, inexperienced as they may be. For me, the only reason to take money from someone to teach them is to get them done much quicker than could do without me. I am a diving instructor, not a retail shop owner, or even a tour operator. But shops in Thailand and Mexico (among other places) build their model on using DMC's for free labor, and putting them to 'work' as pseudo-DMs even before they are actually rated as such. Which is the opposite of my approach. So maybe little of what I say actually applies to how your course is laid out, and your local diving industry works. Preface: There are all manner of ways to teach any course completely by standards, to the point that when people say PADI this, NAUI that, GUE that, it's kind of weird, and reflects internet posturing more than any actual knowledge of how things work. For instructors who wanted to teach with me I have had to run an open water course with just them as students just so they are not the least competent looking divers in the water during class, and some of these people (semi-experienced instructors, from all kinds of agencies) have trouble with the skills. These are the same skills that the wife and me's open water students are just able to do right from the get go because we build the course intelligently and make sure that every moment for every student in the water includes a serious amount of doing, and very little not doing. I wish that it was not the case that course quality varies. But it has to, in part because some instructors focus on 'teaching open water students' and forget that the goal is to make confident comfortable divers, and the course materials are a tool to do that, not a goal in itself. This goes for every level of training, from "Tech Pass", to intro diving, to full cave. Specific answer: The first day of a DM course (after the paperwork and payment) is a bunch of gear assembly, and gear setup explanation to break expectations of what diving gear is supposed to be. Just as some instructors get locked into training as the end goal instead of a tool to create divers, divers get locked into gear as an end goal rather than a tool to go diving (my basic problem with a bunch of recreational divers/instructors, but also my problem with GUE/DIR). There are no setups that I am going to not allow, but I use this time to set-up why a given set of gear choices might have repercussions. The second half of the first part/session/day is straight into water for skills/demos/watermanship/Double secret thing. One thing I know is that people can psyche themselves out about timed/evaluated anything, so while I am timing/evaluating everything, they don't know it. So at the end of the first round of stuff, a good number of people can be done with almost all their skills and watermanship without ever knowing there was such a section. They were just reviewing stuff, and learning a coupla new things. I leave out the "Naked Swim" on the first go round, because if someone only needs a "1" on the "naked swim" from extra points gained from the other stuff, they can just stop worrying about it, because at that point it is basically untimed dog-paddling, which means we can talk story while we do it. I am one of the people who are pushing for Naked Swim to be eliminated from diving classes on all levels. Naked Swims teach nothing, evaluate nothing, and reinforce nothing. It's interesting to see how the Naked Swim has gradually been removed from level after level, and I *think* the only place it still exists is in the DM course. It used to be part of the IDC/IE down through OW. So there is no need for me to hide anything about the manual, because they are not using it at this point. After the first round, we sit down with our IMs, and go through what they did, and why we did. While they are getting familiar with the manual in general, I am showing a specific real world example of IM guided training they have all experienced personally. If we looked at the manual first, they would get caught up in details of each exercise, and forget the goal, which is, in the case of the watermanship stuff, just 15 points, which they may have already accumulated. My hope is that everyone who dives with me, or trains with me, only ever thinks about 'the goal', and the process/skill/activity (whatever it is) as just a means to 'the goal'. By actually demonstrating a real world example of how the IM is a tool and guideline for the course, but contains no info about how a course must be conducted, I hope I am setting some sort of example for how to proceed as a PADI professional: start with a goal, and use the excellent PADI tools to get there. ****
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Jun 21, 2016 15:49
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So... what is a "naked swim"?
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Jun 22, 2016 00:10
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Assuming he means how we had to swim some distance without any gear. 200 meters or something easy like that. I think it was supposed to check basic fitness, but it really didn't.
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Jun 22, 2016 03:29
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Thanks for the writeup, some great food for thought. Right now I and the other DMT are assisting new divers on their OWC. It'd be fun to do some of the things suggested in this thread, but it's hard with the way things are set up here (no pool, have to rent a boat to find confined water conditions).
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Jun 22, 2016 11:52
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jackyl posted:Assuming he means how we had to swim some distance without any gear. 200 meters or something easy like that. I think it was supposed to check basic fitness, but it really didn't. Ok. I was confused by the "dogpaddle" comment; if I were doing a fitness swim, I'd use breast stroke or side stroke.
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Jun 22, 2016 12:31
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Retarded question coming in: how much air is in a pony bottle? Real question: about how long do you think 19 cubic feet of 3,000 PSI air will last a 70 year old woman who only dives to 6 feet tops? My mom hasn't done any real dives in like 15 years or so, but she still uses her scuba gear to clean the bottom of her boat. My parents have a 35 foot cruiser sailboat that they live on for about 6 weeks every summer. They are insanely anal about the boat, every little thing on it is perfect, including the bottom (poo poo growing on your hull is major speed drag on a sailboat, and cruisers are wide in the beam and don't go very fast). So, 3-4 times a summer she dives in and scrubs the bottom with a brush. One tank of air lasts all summer. But she has been complaining that the gear is too heavy for her, and she is going to have to give it up soon (I think getting out of the water is hard for her). She got excited when I showed her my pony bottle, "Hey, I could carry that!" Is it realistic for her to use a pony bottle instead of a full size tank? As long as it gives her enough time to do one cleaning, she could get it filled on Block, or the Vineyard, or any of the other islands they visit.
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Jun 22, 2016 13:00
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lord1234 posted:So Scuba.com used this to advertise for Father's Day....well done Scuba.com Oh jesus I got this straight away. So loving sad and awful.....
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Jun 22, 2016 13:09
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jackyl posted:Assuming he means how we had to swim some distance without any gear. 200 meters or something easy like that. I think it was supposed to check basic fitness, but it really didn't. And if it were checking fitness to dive, why not just do it in MFS (Mask Fin Snorkel), where the activity is actually reinforcing a bunch of stuff we are teaching in the rest of whatever course it is attached to? A MFS swim is an opportunity to learn/practice free-diving including snorkel breathing, general propulsion techniques (especially the dolphin kick which is hard for newer divers to learn in full gear because the tank is wobbly to new divers), do a quick site overview, check rough navigational points, scout a new site, check out entries and exits. A "Naked Swim" (no MFS) is just a stupid counter-productive waste of time in dive training on any level. It not only teaches absolutely nothing, it actually reinforces a lot of crap behavior that dive training is trying to train out of people. Having students do a "Naked Swim" is pretty much a hallmark of an agency/instructor who forgot the goal, and got lost in the checklist. Not that I have any strong opinions about this or anything. 
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Jun 22, 2016 13:16
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Squashy Nipples posted:But she has been complaining that the gear is too heavy for her, and she is going to have to give it up soon (I think getting out of the water is hard for her). She got excited when I showed her my pony bottle, "Hey, I could carry that!" Is it realistic for her to use a pony bottle instead of a full size tank? As long as it gives her enough time to do one cleaning, she could get it filled on Block, or the Vineyard, or any of the other islands they visit. Go even lighter and get a 13! Actually the only issue is finding a cam band/backplate that will cinch the smaller diameter bottle secure. For that reason, people who go the pony route often use a 30cf tank which is 5.25" diameter and yet almost as short as a 19". It's heavier, but so, so much lighter than a standard tank. It's the go to tank for training kids, because it is short enough to not bang heads or butts, and light enough and small enough diameter to not overbalance them. There are a couple of specialized solutions she might consider, if she wants to go the 13cf route. And at her age and usage, that really is the way to go. Carrying a 13 cf to get filled is easy even with arthritis. Even moving up to a 30 is a logistical issue for older folks with joint pain. And snapping cam bands shut, versus using a tank zipper is another logistics issue for people with arthritis. Both Zeagle and SeaSoft have harness that zip in the smaller tanks. SeaSoft makes some really great stuff. The no bladder version: http://www.seasoftscuba.com/vests/quickpack-vest.html The bladder version: http://www.seasoftscuba.com/vests/seahorse-bc-1.html Both have integrated weights. I'd love to link you to something like the QuickPack that Zeagle makes, but their website is annoyingly slow loading.
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Jun 22, 2016 13:37
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Solid advice, thank you. However, there is just about a zero chance that she is buying new equipment. Don't let the boat fool you, my parents are some of the cheapest people I've ever met, so the appeal of this would be "hey, I already have this tank, but you could get more use out of it then I will." I'll see if I can rig it up to her ancient BC. It's got stage bottle ropes and clips on it, so I'm sure I can come up with something. Edit: oh, and thankfully, she has no arthritis in the hands or legs. I think it's her back that's getting bad; it's not the activity, it's carrying the weight on her back.
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Jun 22, 2016 16:42
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pupdive posted:A "Naked Swim" (no MFS) is just a stupid counter-productive waste of time in dive training on any level. It not only teaches absolutely nothing, it actually reinforces a lot of crap behavior that dive training is trying to train out of people. I'm interested to hear more on your reasoning for this. I would argue that being able to swim a decent distance is a useful proxy for general fitness and health, as well as comfort in the water. In my PADI OW course, we actually had someone who turned into a drowning non-swimmer during the swim test. Once upon a time, I was a lifeguard, so saw this for what it was and made sure she got to the pool wall before she went under. Would we have known she had this little comfort in the water otherwise? Maybe, but a supervised pool setting, with calm water, and a wall nearby, was a far better place for this to be discovered than in the ocean. If you can't swim, how can you be comfortable in the water? And if you have lousy fitness, you are certainly at greater risk of a cardiovascular event than someone who is fit (though it is no guarantee you won't have an event). In occupational situations, employers regularly establish fitness requirements - in order to withstand scrutiny, they must be consider bona fide requirements that are immediately generalizable to the job. In diving, I would suggest that an ability to swim some reasonable distance is a bona fide requirement to safely participate. Is it perfect? Hardly, but I do think it's reasonable.
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Jun 22, 2016 17:39
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Does anyone have that gif / video of the cage diver(s) watching a great white, oblivious to the one behind them with its head stuck in the cage gap?
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Jun 23, 2016 14:50
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I got my 10yo certified recently. GORDON fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 21:10
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GORDON posted:I got my 10yo certified recently. 10 is cool? We've been telling our nephew he gets his cert on us at 12.
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Jun 24, 2016 01:54
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lord1234 posted:So Scuba.com used this to advertise for Father's Day....well done Scuba.com Is this a photo of that dad and kid that died in the cave a while back? Otherwise I don't get it.
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Jun 24, 2016 08:02
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jackyl posted:10 is cool? We've been telling our nephew he gets his cert on us at 12. 10-11 year olds can get certified but there are a pretty serious range of restrictions on the instructor side and the student/diver side that make me say to people if you can wait until 12 it's probably a better idea. But really the biggest issue is thermal stuff. Kids have absolutely no problems with any skills, if they are actually interested in getting certified. All of the skill in the confined section which can take many hours for a typical adult, can be done in under an hour with an interested kid. But unless you are in a pool that is hot enough to melt an adult, there are going to need half hour breaks every fifteen minutes to regain core temperature, so it's gonna take hours of doing nothing but heating them back up to get things done. If you are at an inclusive resort with a hot tub, this is a good thing. What thermal issues should tell a parent whose kid wants to get certified is that a properly sized wetsuit is an absolute must for diving for kids. And the way kids grow, that two new wetsuits per diving season. Most people are used to buying clothes too big and letting them grow into them. That does not work with diving.
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Jun 24, 2016 09:52
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Red_Fred posted:Is this a photo of that dad and kid that died in the cave a while back? Otherwise I don't get it. Yep. Dad(Open Water diver) took his son(uncertified) into a GNARLY cave(Eagle's Nest) and they both ended up diving. Worst part is it was on Xmas, so what a great gift to their family.
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Jun 24, 2016 12:46
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pupdive posted:10-11 year olds can get certified but there are a pretty serious range of restrictions on the instructor side and the student/diver side that make me say to people if you can wait until 12 it's probably a better idea. 12 is definitely the best age. I've been teaching a Jr. Scuba Camp twice a year for the past 13 years and my dive shop has been teaching it since the mid-90s. I actually took it when I was 12 in 1996 so we've got quite a bit of experience working with the kiddos. My June 2016 Jr Scuba Camp had 2 instructors including myself, 7 students of which 4 were 10 years old boys. Of the seven I wound up not certifying 3 of the 10 year olds. I tried to make it clear to the kids that they did not fail but that they were just not ready. One kid was probably 90 pounds soaking wet and I had him in a 3mm full body suit with a 3mm shorty on top of it and he was still absolutely freezing in 79 degree water in an outdoor pool with 85+ degree air temp. Even with gear and thermal protection that fits I still think 10 is too young for most kids.
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Jun 24, 2016 13:49
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The thermal issue is absolutely true. After certifying in 52 degree water in Ohio we went to Florida and dove in a few springs, all of them 72F degrees, with 3mm suits. At about 30-35 minutes he was ready to be done because he was cold.... he is 75 pounds, and has no body mass yet. We also had an amazing time, and he got compliments from other instructors left and right who were training their peeps. Ten years old was the correct age for him to start.
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Jun 24, 2016 22:27
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So I'm going to Kauai in a little less than a month and was looking for a shop/guide rec. I got pointed to Lahaina Divers in here for my Maui trip a few years ago and they were awesome, so I was hoping someone in here knows about Kauai too. We would much prefer boat dives. Also there will be non-divers on the vacation with us, so if it's a company that allows passengers to come with (or has intro dives for complete newbies) that would be rad.
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Jul 8, 2016 02:00
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Finished the DMT course! Had a great time, and would totally do it again. Here are a couple of pics (I couldn't take many as the nature of the course wouldn't allow it). Makassar Reef (aka Manta Point). Mantas galore! Fun currents too.  Siaba Besar. After years of hunting I have finally seen a flamboyant cuttlefish. This was a fun dive in that me and the other DMT were allowed to dive on our own while the instructors took the guests. Took about 40 minutes before I spotted this little guy. 
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Jul 8, 2016 05:14
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Glad to hear you had fun! Flamboyant cuttlefish are one of my favorite creatures. I've seen two, both in the Mabul/Kapalai area. The second time I managed catch one shooting out its tongue to feed on a GoPro video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5NoVpsqeP4
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Jul 10, 2016 00:02
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Trivia posted:Finished the DMT course! Had a great time, and would totally do it again. Congratulations! A question: What was the one thing you learned by seeing things from the other side, that people from either or both sides could read and understand things better? I guess for either side, since the cool thing about doing a DM course is that you actually get to see the machinery as it processes you. As much as I try to see things from the student/customer side, it's just a fact that I am simply 'too experienced' to notice everything that's different. It's no longer an amazing thing to be on a boat in the sunshine on the deep blue sea, for instance. Well it is, but I have to be careful to notice how customers are enjoying it to remind me of it. I am lucky to have a women partner who keep me in tune with specific women's issues, and I take care of enough intro divers that I see lots of first timers reactions, but I am sure there is something you could teach me?
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Jul 11, 2016 14:22
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Does anyone have any experience with selling used scuba gear online? There's a couple websites that look like they will take a box, appraise it, and mail you a check or your stuff back. I'm just wondering how fair the process are as I'm trying to get rid of a BCD and a couple other Knick knacks I don't want to come with me when I move.
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Jul 12, 2016 01:41
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I learned just how hellbent some people are on killing themselves. All joking aside, I found it incredible just how long a lot of the guides and instructors work every day, as well as the toll that takes on any semblance of a personal life. I was also pretty surprised at the level of disorder that goes on behind the scenes, especially in regards to equipment. Obviously I was only at one location, but there were times where I legitimately wondered how the place could stay in business, or turn a profit. The shop would regularly rent large amounts of equipment while having numerous pieces of their own in perpetual need of servicing. Operations and tasks in general were poorly organized, which lead to a lot of headaches and embarrassing situations (sometimes with customers). As for the course in general, I have little complaints. The skills section was somewhat dumb, especially the treading water with elbows above the water bit. It was ridiculous, as the women do it laughing while some men (such as myself) are just naturally hosed. To what purpose, I ask. Learning to guide was pretty interesting, though I'd have liked a few intermediary steps before being thrown into the deep end with four guests. Being able to lead two guests first, then moving up to four, would make things a bit less stressful I think. I would have also liked a bit more instruction on how to guide depending on the guest type (newbies, OW, AOW, etc). Often times I found that I was not close enough for less experienced divers, and perhaps a little too attentive for experienced ones. The best reminder my instructor gave me however was essentially: "They're certified divers, so really, they SHOULD be able to handle themselves, to some extent." That made me a feel a lot better when some AOW fuckwit decided that the "three-minute safety stop" signal meant "go straight to the surface." I can't remember if I've posted this already, but if there's one skill that should be practiced and reiterated (across all cert levels really), it's planning and diving as a buddy team. It really puts the onus on the student(s) to think about exactly what it is they're doing, what the dangers are, and how to ensure their own safety. So much of the certification and training process is hand-held, and I feel that's how it is all the way up until (and maybe even including) DM. This naturally results in a certified diver that delegates everything to their guide and then switches on autopilot. I think that's how you get so many divers who are so oblivious. I noticed this with my fellow DMT. She was leaving in 4 days, so naturally just wanted to do some fun diving. I went with her as her buddy, and since we knew all the sites really well we were allowed to go off and dive ourselves. We talked it over and decided that we were going to hunt for the flamboyant cuttlefish on the sandy bottom which is between 12 and 15 meters. We saw all kinds of really neat poo poo, including the cuttlefish find. She was chuffed to bits afterwards (so was I tbh), and it was only after the dive did I learn that it was her first dive "solo" dive. I was surprised but could completely understand why. I made sure to tell my instructor afterwards that letting DMTs plan and do their own dives should be a part of the program. So yeah, sorry for the long post. I guess the take away here is to train students towards self-sufficiency. Make them plan and dive. Make them think about what it is (and why) they're doing. Take them to a site they don't know and tell them to dive / map it. Or put them through a scavenger hunt underwater (with a compass and headings). Drop them in the blue and make them swim 5 minutes to a site. Those are just some of the things that I'd like to have done. I wanted more challenges.
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Jul 12, 2016 02:49
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Anyone have any idea what thickness wetsuit for the Bahamas in April?
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Jul 22, 2016 02:34
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Can't tell you outright, but you can google avg water temps. Knowing that, I'd say you'd want a 5mm long for 24-27 C, 2/3 mm for 28-30 C. That's my personal preference, everyone's different.
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Jul 22, 2016 07:49
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Trivia posted:Can't tell you outright, but you can google avg water temps. That's what I was considering. I was thinking about just buying a 3/2. I already have a 2mm top I could wear under/over it if it's cold.
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Jul 22, 2016 23:31
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Trivia posted:That's my personal preference, everyone's different. This is so true. At 28-30 I would never wear a wetsuit, because I am working and places with those water temps have air temps that make it too hot to keep the suit one out of the water. And by now my body has learned to keep my skin temp hot to keep me warm underwater, which annoyingly means I am always hot out of the water in those places. Experienced instructors often choose what it practical work wise, and let their body adjust to that. Skinny Japanese women instructors who absolutely need real wetsuits as divers end up putting up with a zip up top and surf shorts in the hotter places, because the practicalities of peeing and pooping, and getting into the driver's seat of a vehicle without having to change require it. These same women learned to dive in the same water temps with 3/5 mil full suits But in the same places, I'll work with newer divers who annoying need and wear 5 mil suits, which means I am doing all their work for them since they have to get the suit on and off to do anything because topside it's too hot. And they take forever to get in and out of their suits. I've gone with Farmer John's (with the legs cut short) and rashguards/LavaCore in colder (24C) water for much of the same reason. You still have to get the Farmer John off, but once you cut off the bottom 6 inches of the leg, it's much faster. And your lower shin just gets to live with the cold, as does you upper body. I will say that LavaCore as a rash guard top is pretty awesome. Materials have finally gotten to the point that they make sense as a top. They still pick and pull too much to wear as full suits/Farmer John's. If someone was getting one thing that they could carry anywhere, a LavaCore top is probably it. You can layer it under a rental suit, wear just that and surf shorts in the warmer water, add just a Farmer John in colder water. It allows warm people to get away with nothing in some places, and cold people to not have to wear double suits in other places. And they seem to have gotten the wicking/warmth thing pretty right. It's not immediately sweltering in warm places, and not immediately freezing in wind. All that said, a comfortable fleece is still the best way to spend money that you could spend on wetsuits. Being able to actually stay warm in between dives regardless of the wind or rain, makes wetsuit choices way more fungible. And roomy so it an pull right over whatever wetsuit you have on, makes way more difference than you think it might, because it allows you to get into the water with the water in the suit already preheated, instead of having to gradually have cold water seep in and steal core body heat. Listening to people talk about how much warmer their hand are during a dive, when they wear the fleece during breaks is informative TL;DR A LavaCore top, and a roomy fleece pull-over jacket should be part of everyone's travel kit. Remember that getting cold in the water can be attacked by adding more insulation in the water, but also by preventing heat loss out of it.
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Jul 23, 2016 00:22
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TLG James posted:Anyone have any idea what thickness wetsuit for the Bahamas in April? We did Bimini in early May a few years ago and 3.5mm fulls were fine and maybe overkill, probably could have used our shorties
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Jul 23, 2016 02:19
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Getting a nice rash guard is good. I have a polyester one that serves to add another milli to whatever I'm currently wearing. Sometimes that alone is enough. Also plugging the farmer john bibs and coat style wetsuit. It doubles the core but leaves the extremities less layered.
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Jul 23, 2016 02:37
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What's the best time to go to Roatan? My wife and I are thinking of going, but I am thinking it would be sometime this winter, perhaps in December. Any thoughts?
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Jul 24, 2016 08:12
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I was thinking of Curacao in April 2017, but the Mrs. is concerned about the strife in near-by Venezuelan, since that's where most of the food on Curacao comes from. Is she being paranoid? What do you guys think?
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Jul 25, 2016 17:01
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Curaçao was good when we went there years ago, but there was no Venezuela strife. You probably won't be able to find Polar beer easily but that was the only effect it had on Bonaire a few weeks ago that we noticed. Check out Westpunt, we really enjoyed staying there. And definitely take a day off to drive around the island and explore, it's pretty cool.
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Jul 25, 2016 23:45
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