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Carbon dioxide posted:I agree, but if people consider linearity to be a good thing, why are they so hyped about this open-world game? Some people think linearity is good and others don't. I think there are more in the latter crowd now, just judging by the popularity of Dark Souls and specifically among Zelda fans who have had many linear games in a row. The reason I like Zelda is because the dungeons themselves provide really interesting puzzles in a 3d plane and the combat is basically the smoothest feeling combat I've found in a game not produced by Platinum. What I don't like is feeling like I'm going the wrong way or helplessly wandering around. I gave up on LttP because the combat wasn't engaging and I spent a large amount of time getting lost. I cannot stand Dark Souls because the combat is slow as molasses and it's non-linear design means I just feel like I'm always going the wrong way. Unsurprisingly, whilst I'm excited about a Zelda game coming out, I am desperately unsure if I'll actually enjoy BotW as a result. They're certainly making the right sounds so I'm optimistic, but there is a lot of me that fears having a game that's miles wide but inch deep. If gaming is evolving to go in that direction because it's more popular, fair enough, but I don't think that takes away from the merits that come from linearity nor does it mean that I shouldn't miss more linear games.
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Jul 24, 2016 14:14
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I don't know what's funnier, people who lack the basic coordination to solve Skyward Sword's simple motion control puzzles, or people who struggle for breath trying to do Spirit Tracks' simple panpipes mechanic. Maybe stop choking down mouthfuls of Cheetos like your life depends on it and you'll be able to expel some sustained breaths of air for once.
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Jul 24, 2016 14:20
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Hedrigall posted:I don't know what's funnier, people who lack the basic coordination to solve Skyward Sword's simple motion control puzzles, or people who struggle for breath trying to do Spirit Tracks' simple panpipes mechanic. Maybe stop choking down mouthfuls of Cheetos like your life depends on it and you'll be able to expel some sustained breaths of air for once. The latter is on ds which has notoriously lovely mics that have bad failure rates, as well as being something you can't do in public without looking like a weirdo. Also most Zelda players are white so have no rhythm.
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Jul 24, 2016 14:29
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Carbon dioxide posted:I agree, but if people consider linearity to be a good thing, why are they so hyped about this open-world game? You can do both linearity and non-linearity very well and very horrendously. For every well-designed linear path that gives the sense of exploration and a strong feeling of progress, there's ten games consisting of straight hallways filled with cutscenes. For every open world with many unique locations to explore and stories to engage in, there's ten games with a needlessly pointless overworld that gives the player no sense of progression or direction. It's not mutually exclude to like either.
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Jul 24, 2016 16:02
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I'm literally a musician and singer who played Spirit Tracks at a time when I was going to the gym six days a week. I still had trouble with those stupid songs. One of them gave me enough trouble that I almost quit the game. Traveling in that overworld with those demon trains got me to quit just fine on its own.
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Jul 24, 2016 16:03
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Ometeotl posted:*Prompt onscreen asks the player to do a simple horizontal swing of the remote. And we're the game grumps
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Jul 24, 2016 16:50
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I personally had problems with the game recording horizontal swings as diagonal and the other way around, so when almost all the swordplay required certain angles, it was not fun. There might have been something odd about how I flicked my wrist, but thats very difficult to analyze and control when playing a game. Basically, I just said screw it for the swordplay and just tossed bombs everywhere, since the sword wasn't going to play ball.
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Jul 24, 2016 16:56
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TBF Ghirahim's fights basically involve you exploiting the very nature of the input mechanic by doing something that otherwise feels and seems unnatural, but that was the only part of Skyward Sword that gave me any trouble re:controls and those fights very well can be cleared your first time through by actually brute force shaking your arm/wrist around like a crazy person anyway 
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Jul 24, 2016 17:06
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FirstAidKite posted:Welcome to me every time someone mentions having trouble with Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks. PH and ST had easy to use controls. SS has a serious problem with the camera. Oh, I have to jump to this rope..well it looks like I am facing it. Runs out, jumps, misses by inches. Has to run around again. If I take my time, I can line it up just fine. The problem is this is not a fluid movement. It's making tiny movements left and right over and over and readjusting the camera until it is right. Move left, drat it...too far. Adjust back right. Off again. Back and forth. This is a bad control scheme. The sword works, it's just not a very fun combat method because now in order to use the sword, you have to do two things rather than one. First you have to put the sword where you want it, then you have to swing. Rather than just pushing a button to swing. It was a failed neat idea. But the camera really is the biggest failure.
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Jul 24, 2016 17:12
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Emalde posted:TBF Ghirahim's fights basically involve you exploiting the very nature of the input mechanic by doing something that otherwise feels and seems unnatural, but that was the only part of Skyward Sword that gave me any trouble re:controls and those fights very well can be cleared your first time through by actually brute force shaking your arm/wrist around like a crazy person anyway Yeah, but even the little red dudes were built around slicing in a specific direction. And of course, the flailing can work eventually, but it makes the fight a slog until you luck into the correct direction. Better just to chuck bombs everywhere.
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Jul 24, 2016 17:16
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I like the slingshot in Skyward Sword. I used it all the time against the electrified bokoblins so I didn't have to worry about getting zapped. It was so weird having the slingshot be useful through the whole game.
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Jul 24, 2016 17:43
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frodnonnag posted:Escaping the castle at the beginning of the game no longer requires the lamp. I could have sworn I did this on the SNES version like 18 years ago Skyward Sword is a good game and I enjoyed playing through it, but the motion controls were far from perfect. I honestly cannot blame anyone who had trouble with them
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Jul 24, 2016 17:45
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I don't like SS's combat because it's "do the correct swing every time", no options about strategy. It's not really engaging when it tells you exactly what to do, and you really don't have any options. It's long, boring, and drawn out. The only time it worked well was with Girahim where the game didn't telegraph things for you 100% and you had some options as to what to do. Also, Fitts' Law says that in order to perform a swing, there's first an anticipation pre-swing, and sometimes the game picks that up and swings in the wrong direction.
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Jul 24, 2016 17:46
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I maintain SS should be held up because of how many ways it experimented with motion controls. But I totally would have given up if I hadn't already heard this forum's mantra for the game:code:I waggled conservatively but frequently had trouble registering the right motion. And I loved Da Bird but found precise, sharp turns were impossible. It was also really hard to tell how close you were to something in front of you. So for me, both of the above issues meant target training and the subsequent Levias battle were both slogs. I also thought the Ghirahim fights were impenetrable. That's mainly because the attack "recipe" wasn't explained clearly at all. I had to Google it. Maybe in-game, the original Japanese text made it more comprehensible. I will concede to keeping my living room in low light (ceiling lights are gross and destroy the nuances of certain spaces). Probably would have helped me to have the room evenly lit so the sensor bar and remote could talk easier. But again, I appreciate that it seems the dev team wanted to push the limits of motion controls. One thing I think is really dissonant is a general internet consensus of "Nintendo needs to stop doing the same old thing... unless it's motion controls!" It's really shortsighted to think that the failures are permanent, or that 2 generations of motion experimentation haven't given the company SOME inspiration and knowledge to make better, more fun games, whether they're motion control or not. coffeecup fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jul 24, 2016 |
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Jul 24, 2016 18:17
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Breath of the Wild is going to be the greatest game ever made.
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Jul 24, 2016 18:35
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mabels big day posted:Breath of the Wild is going to be the greatest game ever made. Non "South Park" edition
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Jul 24, 2016 18:50
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maybe....the one speaking to link in the game is...peatrice
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Jul 24, 2016 18:55
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I really enjoyed SS and loved the control scheme. The dungeons, the environments, some of the characters, all great. But I don't see myself ever playing it again because screw those phantom zones.
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Jul 24, 2016 19:20
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Emalde posted:TBF Ghirahim's fights basically involve you exploiting the very nature of the input mechanic by doing something that otherwise feels and seems unnatural, but that was the only part of Skyward Sword that gave me any trouble re:controls and those fights very well can be cleared your first time through by actually brute force shaking your arm/wrist around like a crazy person anyway I had loads of trouble with Ghirahim until I realized that if you shield him at the right time, you stagger him and can get lots of free hits. No reason in trying to hit him with the sword until you've staggered him, it's too hard compared to how easy it is to get the shield timing down properly.
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Jul 24, 2016 19:27
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Raserys posted:And we're the game grumps That was the example in my head as I made that post.
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Jul 24, 2016 19:32
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I think it would be cool if the voice was from the past, like Link was hearing it just after starting to drift off. No fancy telepathy, just someone who failed to stir him in time, so he wakes up 100 years later. He eventually has to spar with (Fallout 4 spoilers) Old Man, who turns out to be his son Shaun. Shaun was just a tiny baby when Link went to sleep, and now he's a misanthropic coffeecup fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 24, 2016 |
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Jul 24, 2016 19:36
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Moose-Alini posted:I really enjoyed SS and loved the control scheme. The dungeons, the environments, some of the characters, all great. But I don't see myself ever playing it again because screw those phantom zones. Those had the most legitimate tension of any Zelda thing for me. Stressful, but in a good way, on balance, I think.
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Jul 24, 2016 19:38
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I had trouble with SS because I didn't know about re-centering, so over a while my swings would go in completely the wrong direction, plus the whole pre-swing thing. I also had trouble with the final phase of the final boss, because for the first time in the game Fi failed to alert me to something really important, the fact that I could now skyward strike again, after telling me at the start of the fight that it was no longer available. Please forgive me for brute forcing it in that phase because I didn't realize that I couldn't use the same demonic lightning as the boss to do a ranged attack.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:16
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Supercar Gautier posted:*Link constantly holds his sword the same way the player holds the remote* Unironically agreed. You'd think that the 6-7 years the wii was out before hand and the hundreds of hours of Wii Sports and Resort would have taught people that the wiimote was never 1-1, even with the upgrade, and the games never wanted you map 1-1 anyway. So it's more like Player: HUh...he swings when I just kind of flick my wrist or swing my arm just a little bittle. Cool. Oh there's an in game prompt that tells me to make short precise swings. Idiot: *swings arms around in massive long strokes* Why isn't this working!?
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Jul 24, 2016 20:22
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If your control scheme is a stumbling block that becomes a point of contention for the player and lessens the amount of fun they're having, without any alternatives given to them, the control scheme is a problem.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:34
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JOHN CENA posted:If your control scheme is a stumbling block that becomes a point of contention for the player and lessens the amount of fun they're having, without any alternatives given to them, the control scheme is a problem. You're right. All fighting games are terrible except for Smash Brothers. Edit: Also all games made after the NES as "this game has too many buttons" is a common enough complaint that the Wiimote in general was appealing to people due to the simplified controls that came with it.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:52
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Just because its easy to learn not to preswing doesn't make it any less dumb. What's the point of motion controls if its not emulating real motions?
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Jul 24, 2016 20:53
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ImpAtom posted:You're right. All fighting games are terrible except for Smash Brothers. If you're going to make a strawman, at least try.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:53
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JOHN CENA posted:If you're going to make a strawman, at least try. You're the one who made a broad and frankly dumb comment. Many control schemes are a stumbling block to players for a variety of reasons. That isn't synonymous with being bad. Fighting games rely on very specific movement and control schemes, some of which are mere legacy and some which are necessary for the game to function despite having a learning curve. Some people don't like playing non-Smash fighting games for exactly this reason and it was one of the design ideas behind Smash and its simplified control scheme. Broseph Brostar posted:Just because its easy to learn not to preswing doesn't make it any less dumb. What's the point of motion controls if its not emulating real motions? The game does make use of the control scheme to emulate real motions in addition to doing attacks that follow the direction of your swipes. Doing a direct 1-for-1 swordplay would require something far more complex than we're able to do right now with anything.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:55
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I really dug the motion controls but I won't blame anyone that couldn't get into them, it was a big enough problem that a lot of people couldn't do them and heck, I myself can't get stabs consistently. SS has some flaws but I still dug it quite a lot, great dungeons, great bosses, zones being mini-dungeons on themselves was fun but boy oh boy was the sky overworld kinda nothing, at least it was a vast nothing rather than a nothing series of corridors like TP.
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Jul 24, 2016 21:01
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I thought the sword controls were fine, expert for stabbing, but motion controls on literally everything when sometimes it would have been much more intuitive to just use the control stick was really dumb. Mainly for skydiving, balancing, remote controlling certain items, etc.
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Jul 24, 2016 21:08
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Hyrule Warriors is a better Zelda game then Skyword Sword is.
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Jul 24, 2016 23:16
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Xik posted:Hyrule Warriors is a better Zelda game then Skyword Sword is. It's the only Zelda game I've enjoyed
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Jul 24, 2016 23:17
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Zelda needs more Ancient Cistern/Timeship from SS, less Fire/Forest/Water/Wind from OoT -> TP. Was not a huge fan of most of the stuff between dungeons though. I actually never finished it, my save is at a part where trolls took all my items and I have to win them back and I wasn't really enjoying it.
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Jul 25, 2016 00:10
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Back to the OOT Water Dungeon talk, I seem to recall that it was actually possible in the original release to completely prevent yourself from clearing it if you opened doors in the wrong order, as the only remaining keys would be behind a locked door.
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Jul 25, 2016 01:19
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No, people just didn't realize that there was a key at the bottom of the middle room; it was a puzzle. The 3DS version fixed this by having the camera pan on that block when you raised the water afterwards.
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Jul 25, 2016 01:38
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My point is that SS' control scheme tries to have it both ways. Instead of being strictly literal or being strictly abstract, it's in an inconsistent middle space that isn't communicated clearly, and that's why people find it awkward instead of intuitive. It's also probably why they're not bringing it back.
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Jul 25, 2016 08:14
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It is a really silly thing to be annoyed at but I am still annoyed that minish cap isn't set before skyward sword
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Jul 25, 2016 08:36
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Eopia posted:Back to the OOT Water Dungeon talk, I seem to recall that it was actually possible in the original release to completely prevent yourself from clearing it if you opened doors in the wrong order, as the only remaining keys would be behind a locked door. It wasn't, it was that there were a series of doors up to Dark link that were all locked. You needed to gather four keys ahead of these doors, otherwise you got to the final door, realised it was locked and had to backtrack through the entire series of rooms to find it.
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Jul 25, 2016 09:35
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 09:41 |
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I got my NES set up to work on my HDTV and not look like poo poo and the first game I've been seriously testing on it is the first LoZ. Everyone always says that game hasn't aged well but drat it it's like comfort food gaming for me. Most likely because I can run through the first quest practically blind and thus don't need a map but I'm having so much fun! It's a good game!!
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Jul 25, 2016 13:18
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