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Dr Subterfuge posted:Just, before we commit to Q, what is the difference between this and just outright telling them to kill themselves?
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Aug 2, 2016 04:34
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Just, before we commit to Q, what is the difference between this and just outright telling them to kill themselves?
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Aug 2, 2016 04:34
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JT Jag posted:Them killing themselves would be really freaking unpleasant for them and some of them probably won't be able to do it Also are we sure they'll end up in the same place?
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Aug 2, 2016 04:35
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Zodiac5000 posted:I don't think we're speaking for El. We are being offered opportunity to do something that he implicitly is ok with. That is a condition for the miracle going through, isn't it? The whole 'revulsion' thing is about El's feelings on the matter, and unless he decides he doesn't like an idea he'll allow it to be done? We are being offered the ability to choose among many options, regardless of their tactical or strategic or cultural merits. All choices except for those he explicitly prevents us from doing are ok by him and we instantly know upon considering an idea if he's down. We are not interacting with a distant/uncommunicative God. We are interacting, in a very real way, with a conduit for Him and His power. We've got a coupon at the 7-EL-even and we can use it how we judge best, within his bounds of acceptable behavior. I mean, if we doubt this is El or a helper/Melachim then it's a lot dicier, but at this point I think it's passing the 'walks like a duck, talks like a duck' test for divinities. el was okay with us leading thousands of people on a death march that ended with us presumably beginning the end of everything.
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Aug 2, 2016 04:36
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Hey Diog, how would the stasis be hidden? What would stop something from reading our mind and going after them? You think you will have some vague ideas about where they are when and if you return to normal. Not enough to dig them up yourself, you will need more power and knowledge than you normally possess to rouse them. If a powerful being read your mind and had the inclination to do so, they could find them and rouse them based on your limited knowledge of where they are.
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Aug 2, 2016 04:37
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J- 1- create the equivalent of Mt. Analogue as a place for Gebs to live. Not actually a mountain, just a place that is nigh on impossible to find. 2- take what we can and head for the House of Zepath. It is a bit like D, but without the stasis.
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Aug 2, 2016 04:50
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Option Q seems pretty final. Are we sure it's a good solution to the Gebeban problem?
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Aug 2, 2016 04:52
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Are you saying that killing everyone isn't a good final solution?
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Aug 2, 2016 04:55
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Diogines posted:Are you saying that killing everyone isn't a good final solution? I bet you're pretty surprised that the thread has done a complete 180 on this.
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Aug 2, 2016 05:02
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Diog, does Ur rotate? Is the world on which we exist a spherical object? Because if so, what's the ruling on making us and out loot intangible and frictionless to everything, but having us not sink below the elevation of Zepath? Like, could we use the natural rotation of Ur to just...slide to Zepath, for a lack of a better analogy?
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Aug 2, 2016 05:03
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Diog, can we guess what Tudiya would do in this situation? Using our intimate knowledge of him and his King-y decisions?
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Aug 2, 2016 05:08
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FaustianQ posted:Diog, does Ur rotate? Is the world on which we exist a spherical object? Because if so, what's the ruling on making us and out loot intangible and frictionless to everything, but having us not sink below the elevation of Zepath? Like, could we use the natural rotation of Ur to just...slide to Zepath, for a lack of a better analogy? The world is flat. As far you know.
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Aug 2, 2016 05:11
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Diogines posted:The world is flat. This seems weird for Enkindel not to know, as his extremely keen eyesight would mean he'd be very aware of the effect of the curvature of Ur on objects appearing on the horizon.
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Aug 2, 2016 05:16
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Arcturas posted:Diog, can we guess what Tudiya would do in this situation? Using our intimate knowledge of him and his King-y decisions? It is tough to say what he would do. Tudiya is defined to a large degree by his sense of duty. Duty to his comrades? Get them home safely. Duty to Zepath? Get information on this tremendous threat home and prepare. Duty to El's sacred law? That is really tricky. Is El giving you permission to kill a bunch of people or are you simply using the tools provided to do so? Duty to the innocent? Save them. Somehow. If Tudiya thought these people were cannibals he would ignore them without a second glance or possibly kill them. The fact they are not cannibals and and praying to El for aid makes that a lot more complicated. Tudiya is also firm in the belief that every person who dies instantaneously and infallibly appears on the slopes at the base of Mount Har to make their climb. I can't guess what Tudiya would do for you, you'll have to decide. Diogines fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 05:17
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FaustianQ posted:This seems weird for Enkindel not to know, as his extremely keen eyesight would mean he'd be very aware of the effect of the curvature of Ur on objects appearing on the horizon. Enkidel never read the Great Scrolls of Inquiry? How would he know that is not how things are supposed to look?
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Aug 2, 2016 05:19
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Diogines posted:This situation is ridiculously beyond the norm to an extreme degree. Hmm, thanks.
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Aug 2, 2016 05:26
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Can we
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Aug 2, 2016 05:29
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Jesus is colourblin posted:Can we I asked this already, we can only do one thing
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Aug 2, 2016 05:33
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SKY COQ posted:I asked this already, we can only do one thing My bad. You try to read but here are so many posts.
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Aug 2, 2016 05:34
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You fear if you read too many posts you will go mad
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Aug 2, 2016 05:39
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Diogines posted:This situation is ridiculously beyond the norm to an extreme degree. What if he was pretty certain that if anyone remained they may spell doom for Zepath?
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Aug 2, 2016 05:44
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1. Q 2. A Least bad options. They'll never be accepted in Ur, and they deserve better than being buried in the dirt in hopes that we can eventually dig them up and take them back to Ur where they'll never be accepted. Send them to Mt. Har where they can stand in the light of El and know peace. Get our men and our loot the gently caress out of here and back home where there is much preparation to be done. Did Tudiya have a vision of the terrible army that will follow us home? Is that why he's been so depressed and focused on preparing for war? Have to admit, I thought long and hard about going for the club. The club would be intensely bitchin'. And so would any of the scrolls.
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Aug 2, 2016 06:03
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1. Q 2. A Trying to save everyone got us in way too much trouble last time. I say gently caress it, kill them all and let god sort it out . Nettle Soup, you do good work.
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Aug 2, 2016 06:26
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Aades posted:Change from P, A to 1. H, 2. B Good point. P and any vote that results in them being eaten by giants is pretty much the same thing. I might need to change my vote to H.
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Aug 2, 2016 06:27
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KPC_Mammon posted:Good point. P and any vote that results in them being eaten by giants is pretty much the same thing. I might need to change my vote to H. How long will it take for us to be powerful enough to kill the demon king and what are the chances that the demon king will be able to find out who we are, decide that there's a new land ripe for the farming and waltz over and push our poo poo in? Low? High? Unknowable? Is that a gamble that's worth taking? Also an eternity in stasis and an eternity of torture inside a demon isn't really comparing apples to oranges unless you're a sociopath.
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Aug 2, 2016 06:30
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PA Keep our loot and save their souls.
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Aug 2, 2016 06:32
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While it probably wouldn't be quite enough to make me change my vote, I've thought of one thing I'd really like: Would it be possible to create the great scrolls of Mathematics and/or Physics? Enkidel has been pretty good at working stuff out and inventing things as is. I'd love to see what he'd be able to do if he had Calculus at his disposal
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Aug 2, 2016 06:54
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Outrail posted:How long will it take for us to be powerful enough to kill the demon king and what are the chances that the demon king will be able to find out who we are, decide that there's a new land ripe for the farming and waltz over and push our poo poo in? Low? High? Unknowable? Is that a gamble that's worth taking?  We are taking a chance in doing the right thing instead of just murdering people and making poo poo up to justify it for sweet loot. How is a Stasis and Torture the same comparison unless we're a sociopath? It seems like to find those hidden they would have know what we did, and then spend time and power to find them. "They won't fit in" you know Kavodel is a melting pot right?
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Aug 2, 2016 07:03
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1: write in: teleport yourself and your balls and treasure back home. Only take enough loot that you teleport back home and not days or weeks away. Basically plan GTFO). 2J wrote in: tell the Gebebans that they have a few choices, and they have free will to decide: 1: point them towards UR and suggest they get walking on a long, dangerous, impossible trek 2: suggest that they sew guerrilla warfare among the many other enslaved villages. We would spend a few weeks training them before we teleport home and we can offer anyone who volunteers to stay behind (staring at David) 3: tell them to wait and be enslaved or killed again 4: offer that they can seek out a meager existence in the forest or fringes around Gebeb Basically they are of their own...
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Aug 2, 2016 07:04
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Obscil posted:
I changed my vote
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Aug 2, 2016 07:07
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1. P 2. A Why? Because the Melachim are continually debating what to do with us, and judging us by our actions. It is far more important to our long-term well-being that we show worthiness to the Melachim than that we gather loot. We know two of their criteria (which, frankly, seem like reasonable rules to live by): 1. Mercy is never misplaced. 2. Do not destroy. We also know that they hate cannibalism/hunger, and value selflessness (the Watchers of Zepath specifically cited instances of this as checkmarks in our favour). Regarding other options: Getting loot at the expense of the Gebekkers reeks of megalomania, no matter how we try to justify it. We will pay for this next time the Melachim scrutinise us to decide whether to put us in eternity-jail. Getting knowledge is enormously appealing, but still incredibly difficult to justify in the face of the Gebekkers, who are crying out to El for help. Q has some vague resemblance to P, and could by some rather convoluted logic be construed as mercy. That said, I'd really like all the Q voters to please listen to the below song, inspired by another nice man who killed people to prevent their future suffering. The lyrics are quite appropriate for Enkidel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCZnxRM698 Yes,  PS: Diog has just implied that this is how he views option Q. I'm pretty sure choosing it will have permanent effects both on Enkidel's psyche and on his Balls, not even considering how it will look to the Melachim.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:08
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Grognan posted:
I don't plan on making anything up, and I'm certainly not doing this for loot. We have an impossible dilemma here - short of sending them all to what we assume is Mt Har, some poor bastards are going to get left behind, tortured, enslaved, eaten and placed in eternal spiritual torment. The greatest good we can do for the greatest number of people here is to free their souls and guide them to safety. It's not a good thing to do, but it might be the best thing to do under the circumstances.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:11
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SKY COQ posted:I don't plan on making anything up, and I'm certainly not doing this for loot. We have an impossible dilemma here - short of sending them all to what we assume is Mt Har, some poor bastards are going to get left behind, tortured, enslaved, eaten and placed in eternal spiritual torment. This is denying 180 children a chance at life. Its monstrous. Its not merciful, it's.... terrible. I can't abide it. Give the gebians a chance to die in the wilderness, or to take their own lives, or to fight the giants, while we rescue their children. We're not a god, we cannot, should not, make this choice for them. They are human. They deserve a chance to die as they see fit, be it by their own hand, in battle or trying to carve out a life in an unwelcoming wilderness. Who knows, maybe some of them will get obscenely lucky. They deserve a chance to choose. On that note, Changing 2 from F to D
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Aug 2, 2016 07:17
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SKY COQ posted:I don't plan on making anything up, and I'm certainly not doing this for loot. We have an impossible dilemma here - short of sending them all to what we assume is Mt Har, some poor bastards are going to get left behind, tortured, enslaved, eaten and placed in eternal spiritual torment. Stasis actually hides them what are you going on about? Don't go full final solution. If the "cattle" are missing what are the odds that another rival stole them for his herd? They might not even suspect us if they all went missing with all the loot. Stasis them and spend some time razing the place and framing the Norcs for it. We have some of their gear and know their sigil. They won't be looking for a hidden cache if they have an explanation in front of them. Also it might start poo poo between two really evil enemies. Grognan fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 07:18
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I feel I am off to good start, making an alternative suggestion that will get no votes.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:30
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Changing My Vote from QA to Write-in Plan False Fare Flag Place the people in Stasis. Tell the Balls that "those higher have heard our plea and delivered us a solution. The people are made safe and slumber peacefully and out of danger. When they who know judge us sufficiently mighty to brave 600 souls through the woods without certain death we will be summoned to return." -This gives us deniability with the balls over leaving 600 souls in demon land. We have a month before Giants arrive, so we spend the next three days getting ready to leave and messing up the place such that anyone who investigates finds that there are strange Banikmot symbols carved on the walls of burnt out and destroyed houses. No blood meaning they were kidnapped and strangely were headed towards the east, away from Zepath to some cave. We take what we can carry that has high value/weight ratios. Bags of gems, blacksmith tools, scrolls. Only as much as we can carry and not have our pace home slowed. Burn some of the rest and leave a trail of discarded broken items on the path leading away. After three days we bail slowly for another week to make sure we leave absolutely no trail. After a week of careful travel we then bail at maximum speed for home and don't look back.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:33
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SKY COQ posted:I don't plan on making anything up, and I'm certainly not doing this for loot. We have an impossible dilemma here - short of sending them all to what we assume is Mt Har, some poor bastards are going to get left behind, tortured, enslaved, eaten and placed in eternal spiritual torment. While it sounds like stasis is probably more like nothingness than torment, I otherwise agree with this. I'm not completely against stasis, but like others, I have my doubts that we'll ever be in a position to come back later on when all indications point to the world going to hell and a handbasket in the future, and we'll likely have bigger priorities if/when we're ever strong enough to come back and rescue them. There is a reasonably good chance that the end result of this option is eternal oblivion for them, potentially for any number of reasons beyond our control (like for example, the possibility that we die long before we are powerful enough to save them.) Teleport results in some people living, and others having their souls in eternal torment, and possibly leaving Ur open to retaliation if we don't murder them/convince them to suicide Plan Jonestown results in everyone's souls being saved, and entering paradise. It also results in a whole village of innocent people, including children dying, essentially by our hand. Look, all our options suck. There is no right vote here, only varying degrees of wrong votes. It seems like the real point of difference between Pro and anti Q voters is how valuable a life is compared to a soul, as this lovely situation is basically forcing us to decide on just that. There's reasonable arguments for both sides to be had that don't involve the opposing side being selfish/greedy/ a nazi Rahul fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 07:35
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PA It's not clear to me whether the Jonestown route is El-sanctioned or not, so I'm going with the morally safer option. Not an easy vote though.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:42
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Arkanomen posted:Changing My Vote from QA to Write-in I like this, if only because I really love the idea of framing the Bnaimokt for as much poo poo as we can My only issue is that, in our dream, Fare was a mere rooster of the Master of these lands. I worry Fare is a servant to this power, and so the Bnaimokt are too, so they will see through the ruse.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:43
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R Send the kids holding as much as they can carry, and if possible, send a Ball to explain what's going on. D But not entirely at random. We're only a week or two (admittedly at a faster pace) from Original Amok. Teach them the basics of foraging and point them in that direction, if any survive when he returns they're his problem.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:45
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