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Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

Mover posted:

Well, the concussive force of getting shot in the head from 1 foot away vs. 20 feet away should probably not be the difference between life-threatening brain damage or shrugging it off with an eye-roll and a one-liner, but we are willing to forgive in the name of comix.

After already using her super strength to cause some head trauma, Jessica Jones put the barrel to his chin and pulled the trigger. That's a near perfectly positioned, point blank shotgun upper cut in the 3rd round. A whole lot different than dudes shooting his torso from distance.

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TheMaestroso
Nov 4, 2014

I must know your secrets.

notthegoatseguy posted:

I know the general consensus is AOS sucks

It's not exactly amazing, but it's better than people give it credit (people who probably stopped watching during early season 1, at that).

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

notthegoatseguy posted:

Yet SHIELD stuff has been referenced several times in both seasons of Daredevil. Skye/Daisy went to the same orphanage as Matt, Crusher Creel is off-screen getting his rear end kicked by Matt's father before he gets powers, and that Dogs from Hell gang in season 2 first appeared in a season 1 AOS episode.'

I know the general consensus is AOS sucks, but that there's some sort of division between AOS/ABC and everything else isn't really supported. The division is between all of TV vs all of film.

Until we've got main actors crossing over it doesn't mean poo poo and you know it.

TheMaestroso posted:

It's not exactly amazing, but it's better than people give it credit (people who probably stopped watching during early season 1, at that).

I stayed through season 2. Aside from Kyle MacLachlan, Crusher Creel, and Lucy Lawless it sucked on toast. Even Edward James Olmos couldn't do poo poo to make the Inhumans plot interesting. Was good to see that Dollhouse actress getting work. Ward is overrated as balls btw. I liked the "bad boy heel turn" act when David Boreanaz was doing it, and he wasn't even that good at it.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

notthegoatseguy posted:

Yet SHIELD stuff has been referenced several times in both seasons of Daredevil. Skye/Daisy went to the same orphanage as Matt, Crusher Creel is off-screen getting his rear end kicked by Matt's father before he gets powers, and that Dogs from Hell gang in season 2 first appeared in a season 1 AOS episode.'


That sounds like SHIELD is referencing Netflix stuff.

TheMaestroso
Nov 4, 2014

I must know your secrets.

mind the walrus posted:

I stayed through season 2. Aside from Kyle MacLachlan, Crusher Creel, and Lucy Lawless it sucked on toast. Even Edward James Olmos couldn't do poo poo to make the Inhumans plot interesting. Was good to see that Dollhouse actress getting work. Ward is overrated as balls btw. I liked the "bad boy heel turn" act when David Boreanaz was doing it, and he wasn't even that good at it.

I would say I liked the latter half of S1 and pretty much all of S3 more than S2.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

Except every one of those AoS references predate the Netflix shows.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

TheMaestroso posted:

I would say I liked the latter half of S1 and pretty much all of S3 more than S2.

Good for you. I say that with humility and with true respect for our differences of opinion.

That said I have not checked in with Season 3, but what I have read about it and heard from others is dire. From what I understand they prioritized romances, bungled Lash, spent far too much time focused on electric boy, and decided that Simmons on an alien planet wouldn't be interesting enough unless she had someone to flirt with. Yeah how on earth could I stay away from that.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

howe_sam posted:

Except every one of those AoS references predate the Netflix shows.

It's telling that other than the gang I couldn't really tell which came first.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

notthegoatseguy posted:

Yet SHIELD stuff has been referenced several times in both seasons of Daredevil. Skye/Daisy went to the same orphanage as Matt, Crusher Creel is off-screen getting his rear end kicked by Matt's father before he gets powers, and that Dogs from Hell gang in season 2 first appeared in a season 1 AOS episode.'

I know the general consensus is AOS sucks, but that there's some sort of division between AOS/ABC and everything else isn't really supported. The division is between all of TV vs all of film.

That's not SHIELD stuff going into Daredevil, that's general Marvel/Daredevil poo poo going into SHIELD. Crusher Creel always fought Matt's dad in the comics for instance, it's not something they added because SHIELD used him. SHIELD had some nice bits, and it has some good actors, but it is very much nowhere near the darling the Netflix stuff is and it's hanging on by a thread.

TheMaestroso
Nov 4, 2014

I must know your secrets.

mind the walrus posted:

Good for you. I say that with humility and with true respect for our differences of opinion.

That said I have not checked in with Season 3, but what I have read about it and heard from others is dire. From what I understand they prioritized romances, bungled Lash, spent far too much time focused on electric boy, and decided that Simmons on an alien planet wouldn't be interesting enough unless she had someone to flirt with. Yeah how on earth could I stay away from that.

I haven't read others' opinions on it, but I can see how on paper it would seem less good or even bad. Personally, watching it unfold was entertaining and engaging (as much as a light drama with comic book stuff can be, anyway - DD and JJ are better shows). I hated Lincoln at first, but he got better once he became disillusioned. Lash could've gotten a better ending, but the lead-up to it was good. I really enjoyed the whole deserted-in-space part, because they focused on Simmons being herself. It's not like she immediately stumbled into NASA boy's arms and started sleeping with him that night. E: Daisy's arc in S3 itself is totally worth watching the season. Before she was a lot less interesting, but then has to deal with both finding a new identity, losing it again, and salvaging something new from the ashes.

This is probably a pointless conversation, but I have a hard time seeing why people poo poo on the show. Like, you can enjoy a fun, less interesting show than JJ or DD even and still have those better series.

TheMaestroso fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Aug 10, 2016

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005

Boogaleeboo posted:

That's not SHIELD stuff going into Daredevil, that's general Marvel/Daredevil poo poo going into SHIELD. Crusher Creel always fought Matt's dad in the comics for instance, it's not something they added because SHIELD used him. SHIELD had some nice bits, and it has some good actors, but it is very much nowhere near the darling the Netflix stuff is and it's hanging on by a thread.

St Agnes Orphanage isn't in the comics, as far as I know. They sure didn't have to make Matt attend the same orphanage as Skye and could've easily just left it unnamed or name it something else, and there's no reason they couldn't have come up with their own biker gang in Daredevil season 2.

I don't think anyone is claiming AOS is a critical or any type of darling.

notthegoatseguy fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Aug 10, 2016

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012
in the room where you sleep

TheMaestroso posted:

I haven't read others' opinions on it, but I can see how on paper it would seem less good or even bad. Personally, watching it unfold was entertaining and engaging (as much as a light drama with comic book stuff can be, anyway - DD and JJ are better shows). I hated Lincoln at first, but he got better once he became disillusioned. Lash could've gotten a better ending, but the lead-up to it was good. I really enjoyed the whole deserted-in-space part, because they focused on Simmons being herself. It's not like she immediately stumbled into NASA boy's arms and started sleeping with him that night. E: Daisy's arc in S3 itself is totally worth watching the season. Before she was a lot less interesting, but then has to deal with both finding a new identity, losing it again, and salvaging something new from the ashes.

This is probably a pointless conversation, but I have a hard time seeing why people poo poo on the show. Like, you can enjoy a fun, less interesting show than JJ or DD even and still have those better series.

People poo poo on the show because it had a boring first season and the first season of any show is supposed to draw people in. If they didn't enjoy season 1 of any kind of show then they won't watch any more episodes, because why would they?

Your entry point has to be at least good. Season 1 of AOS was boring and crappy and it's an incredibly hard sell to tell people "yeah you should watch a show that's only marginally improved from it's mediocre first season, and it isn't great television but you should watch it anyway. Even though it isn't all that interesting and you hated the first episodes you saw."

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

HIJK posted:

People poo poo on the show because it had a boring first season and the first season of any show is supposed to draw people in. If they didn't enjoy season 1 of any kind of show then they won't watch any more episodes, because why would they?

Your entry point has to be at least good. Season 1 of AOS was boring and crappy and it's an incredibly hard sell to tell people "yeah you should watch a show that's only marginally improved from it's mediocre first season, and it isn't great television but you should watch it anyway. Even though it isn't all that interesting and you hated the first episodes you saw."

I won't deny that Season 1 started rather bland. But it dramatically improved just past the halfway point and has been getting steadily better ever since.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012
in the room where you sleep

jivjov posted:

I won't deny that Season 1 started rather bland. But it dramatically improved just past the halfway point and has been getting steadily better ever since.

Yeah but that's not the point. The point is that if a showrunner wants people to keep watching, than the showrunner has got to have something to offer straight out of the gate. When there isn't anything to offer than this situation happens, where the show (probably) improves but the core audience doesn't care and doesn't want to invest their time in it, because they got burned doing that the first time.

That's the question. Why should the audience care about what a show is doing now when their first impression of it is so negative?

e: actually that would make a good classroom exercise for students of advertising. How do you get people watching a show that used to be bad but has improved to "watchable?" show your work

HIJK fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Aug 10, 2016

TheMaestroso
Nov 4, 2014

I must know your secrets.
"This show is bad because of this meta reason about what gets people to watch tv shows."

*cough*

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002


I wish everything crossed over with cameos and pointless scenes to go "ah it's that guy from the show!". Like if I was cast as someone from Marvel I'd just go for all cameos or do a Sam Jackson and just dress up as Fury and try to get a cameo on a non-Marvel show for the hell of it (Breaking Bad).

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

HIJK posted:

Why should the audience care about what a show is doing now when their first impression of it is so negative?

Because its so much better now? In this age of social media and whatnot, word of mouth can accomplish a lot

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005

I know AOS isn't without faults, but neither are the Netflix series, and the Netflix series have the huge benefit of not being pressured to be shoehorned into current MCU events. Daredevil season 2 really felt disjointed and had major problems with the story, and how the story tied into Daredevil and Matt's life. I mean the Punisher stuff from the first 5-6 episodes was almost universally good, but as the series went more into The Hand and the Punisher story almost happened on its own thing, it got progressively worse and characters such as Nobo seemed to be shells of their former selves. I really likedJessica Jones, and it took a lot of big risks in terms of story, but I think there was some fat that could've been cut from Jessica's endless pursuit of a solution/plot device to stop Kilgrave. Her sitting there shouting, literally "Supermax!!!!" was irritating, but it is easily forgotten because it was followed up by one of my favorite seasons from any of the Netflix shows.

Rirse
May 7, 2006

by R. Guyovich

Happy Noodle Boy posted:

I wish everything crossed over with cameos and pointless scenes to go "ah it's that guy from the show!". Like if I was cast as someone from Marvel I'd just go for all cameos or do a Sam Jackson and just dress up as Fury and try to get a cameo on a non-Marvel show for the hell of it (Breaking Bad).

So is Jane from Breaking Bad became Jessica Jones in a plot twist?

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand

HIJK posted:

Yeah but that's not the point. The point is that if a showrunner wants people to keep watching, than the showrunner has got to have something to offer straight out of the gate. When there isn't anything to offer than this situation happens, where the show (probably) improves but the core audience doesn't care and doesn't want to invest their time in it, because they got burned doing that the first time.
Be that as it may, people on internet forums going "lol AoS sure sucks am I right" just sound like dolts when it hasn't been the case for 2/3rds of the show's existence (if not more, counting the last stretch of season one). We're not talking about market research, we're talking about TV viewers regurgitating fanon that's been outdated for two and a half years.

The reverse is certainly true as well. If I went around declaring that Arrow is the best superhero show around, who literally gives a poo poo that I'm technically talking about how it was two seasons ago?

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

notthegoatseguy posted:

St Agnes Orphanage isn't in the comics, as far as I know. They sure didn't have to make Matt attend the same orphanage as Skye and could've easily just left it unnamed or name it something else, and there's no reason they couldn't have come up with their own biker gang in Daredevil season 2.

I don't think anyone is claiming AOS is a critical or any type of darling.

Have you noticed how incredibly often the best in certain fields go to school or have lived together? It's an incredibly common thing, to the point where very successful people who didn't come up with other big names is the anomaly. Seriously, look into it, and maybe instead of making it bad it'll make you wonder what's special about that place.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

BrianWilly posted:

Be that as it may, people on internet forums going "lol AoS sure sucks am I right" just sound like dolts when it hasn't been the case for 2/3rds of the show's existence (if not more, counting the last stretch of season one). We're not talking about market research, we're talking about TV viewers regurgitating fanon that's been outdated for two and a half years.

The reverse is certainly true as well. If I went around declaring that Arrow is the best superhero show around, who literally gives a poo poo that I'm technically talking about how it was two seasons ago?

The first third of this season was terrible. The writers still have bad treading water in 'em.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003





BrianWilly posted:

Be that as it may, people on internet forums going "lol AoS sure sucks am I right" just sound like dolts when it hasn't been the case for 2/3rds of the show's existence (if not more, counting the last stretch of season one). We're not talking about market research, we're talking about TV viewers regurgitating fanon that's been outdated for two and a half years.

The reverse is certainly true as well. If I went around declaring that Arrow is the best superhero show around, who literally gives a poo poo that I'm technically talking about how it was two seasons ago?

Dam dolts disagreeing with your objectively correct opinion about a television show.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

TheMaestroso posted:

This is probably a pointless conversation, but I have a hard time seeing why people poo poo on the show. Like, you can enjoy a fun, less interesting show than JJ or DD even and still have those better series.

Well for whatever it's worth I hated JJ because of Krysten Ritter, thought DD S1 was kneecapped by D'Nofrio's awful wheezy Kingpin voice, and I actually kind-of liked Season 2 of AoS in spite of how mediocre it was thanks almost solely to Kyle MachLachlan, Lucy Lawless, Adrienne Palicki, and Crusher Creel. Call me a "hater" if that's what you want, but bear in mind I still watched all of those series before forming a full opinion. AoS was the only one that failed to keep me invested in using my copious free time on it. To re-use my earlier example I'll regularly rewatch Angel even though it is objectively not a good show for the vast majority of its run. AoS can't even compete with that.

And nothing you nor anyone else has said has managed to change my mind, especially since 9 times out of 10 the argument boils down to:

jivjov posted:

I won't deny that Season 1 started rather bland. But it dramatically improved just past the halfway point and has been getting steadily better ever since.

BrianWilly posted:

people on internet forums going "lol AoS sure sucks am I right" just sound like dolts when it hasn't been the case for 2/3rds of the show's existence (if not more, counting the last stretch of season one). We're not talking about market research, we're talking about TV viewers regurgitating fanon that's been outdated for two and a half years.

Where--even setting aside that it cottons to a counter-meme of its own that anyone who criticizes AoS must have stopped watching in Season One--I make it very plain in my opinion that no, I don't think it got better after the Hydra reveal and no, I didn't think it got much better in Season 2 outside of a few exceptional character actors being allowed to be exceptional character actors.

I give you respect Maestroso for at least making an argument. I can't say the same for any other AoS fan I've run across.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


mind the walrus posted:

I give you respect Maestroso for at least making an argument. I can't say the same for any other AoS fan I've run across.

who gives a poo poo, ugh, this argument sucks

Apoplexy
Mar 9, 2003

by Shine

notthegoatseguy posted:

Yet SHIELD stuff has been referenced several times in both seasons of Daredevil. Skye/Daisy went to the same orphanage as Matt, Crusher Creel is off-screen getting his rear end kicked by Matt's father before he gets powers, and that Dogs from Hell gang in season 2 first appeared in a season 1 AOS episode.'

I know the general consensus is AOS sucks, but that there's some sort of division between AOS/ABC and everything else isn't really supported. The division is between all of TV vs all of film.

The general consensus is loving wrong and based on a perception based solely on, what, the first handful of episodes of season 1? There's now 3 seasons. Maybe give it the loving chance it deserves.

Apoplexy
Mar 9, 2003

by Shine

notthegoatseguy posted:

I don't think anyone is claiming AOS is a critical or any type of darling.

93% on RottenTomatoes. 86 S1, 94 S2, 100 S3.

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007

Oh no!😱

MrAristocrates posted:

who gives a poo poo, ugh, this argument sucks

If anything its not granular enough. I'm waiting for mind the walrus to break down his opinion to minute by minute ratings of all the television he does and does not watch. I think everyone would be interested in that, wouldnt they?

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




Apoplexy posted:

The general consensus is loving wrong and based on a perception based solely on, what, the first handful of episodes of season 1? There's now 3 seasons. Maybe give it the loving chance it deserves.

No one watches more of a show when they're not enjoying it to begin with. Say that, sadly, three-fourths of season 1 weren't good though it improved immensely in the later seasons and keep on rolling.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

Apoplexy posted:

The general consensus is loving wrong and based on a perception based solely on, what, the first handful of episodes of season 1? There's now 3 seasons. Maybe give it the loving chance it deserves.

17 episodes in season 1 and 9 in season 3.

More than an entire season. Also most of season 2 wasn't good.

HIJK
Nov 25, 2012
in the room where you sleep

Apoplexy posted:

The general consensus is loving wrong and based on a perception based solely on, what, the first handful of episodes of season 1? There's now 3 seasons. Maybe give it the loving chance it deserves.

I watched the first four episodes of S3 for the hell of it. It was adequate.

BSam
Nov 24, 2012

socialsecurity posted:

Dam dolts disagreeing with your objectively correct opinion about a television show.

This, but not sarcastic.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

I watched Agents of Shield until the Coulson resurrection storyline was resolved. It's an ok show but now that mystery is solved I have no interest in returning to it when there are so many actually good things I could be watching instead.

Did the Scottish nerd and the English nerd ever get together? I did feel bad for that guy, getting rejected and brain damaged on the same day.

Anyway, they should cancel it and make a new series of Agent Carter instead.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

Those people made season 2 of Carter, they had their chance.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

marktheando posted:


Did the Scottish nerd and the English nerd ever get together? I did feel bad for that guy, getting rejected and brain damaged on the same day.


Yup, that was a subplot of season 3

Codependent Poster
Oct 20, 2003

marktheando posted:

Did the Scottish nerd and the English nerd ever get together? I did feel bad for that guy, getting rejected and brain damaged on the same day.

Scottish nerd also becomes incredibly awesome.

TheMaestroso
Nov 4, 2014

I must know your secrets.

marktheando posted:

Did the Scottish nerd and the English nerd ever get together? I did feel bad for that guy, getting rejected and brain damaged on the same day.

His return to form through S3 is pretty great.

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005

Aphrodite posted:

Those people made season 2 of Carter, they had their chance.

I think shows can survive a clunky season 2 if their ratings hold up. Just look at the second season of Daredevil. Unfortunately, even the very solid season 1 of Carter had abysmally low ratings even though it was airing in the same time slot as AOS. Apparently period pieces tend to not do well, at least on network television.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



Season one of Carter really worked because it was paced for a miniseries.

I dropped out of season 2 when I realized they weren't wrapping it up, there were going to be twice as many episodes, and each episode was half an hour's entertainment stretched to an hour.

It wasn't a bad concept, but Peggy Carter should always have been solving 50s mysteries in a movie of the week format, like Colombo.

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DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.
Wikipedia had the first 7 episode titles.

Sure enough, they're named after Gang Starr songs.

I can't loving wait for this.

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