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Cojawfee posted:Why were the Kazon around for so long? They were so primitive, how could their reach be that far? Good question, they never explained where they got their poo poo from. Like you can build warp ships but you can't find planets with water?
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Aug 22, 2016 04:16
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Cojawfee posted:Why were the Kazon around for so long? They were so primitive, how could their reach be that far? Kazon's were pretty much Delta Quadrant Klingons, and I can never quite believe that their tech is so much better than Voyager's. At least the Hirogen were like super hunter Predator fucks. The Kazon just fought amongst the scraps.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:17
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Are the Kazon the trashcan race who couldn't figure out how to find water in space? It's literally canon that the Borg didn't assimilate them because doing so would make them worse off.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:18
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Later on it's explained they were lovely slaves and stole their ships from their former masters except I guess they really are a lesser race since they can't even find water with a fleet of warp ships and they're so inferior even the borg don't want them.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:20
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The Kazon weren't even good enough to be Klingon knock-offs. On any other show, they'd be the random mulleted rebels stuck in an endless war against slightly different random mulleted rebels over ownership of that week's cave set and burning trashcan props, the Enterprise would deal with them for one episode and then get back on the road. But Voyager being Voyager, they stuck around for two years because someone thought doing Los Angeles street gangs in space would be a good idea.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:22
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The failure of the Kazon as a concept make the Remans even more hilarious to think about.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:28
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Rhyno posted:Good question, they never explained where they got their poo poo from. Like you can build warp ships but you can't find planets with water? They were slaves who took all their ships from the Trabe when they had an uprising like 30 years before Voyager. I give it a generation until they're planetbound.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:44
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We look for things. Things that make us go.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:53
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Cojawfee posted:Why were the Kazon around for so long? They were so primitive, how could their reach be that far? They stole all their tech and resources from the race that enslaved them. e. crap. I must have had this tab open for the past 45 minutes.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:58
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I guess I haven't gotten to that episode yet.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:07
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The water thing was hilarious. They really gave it no thought at all. Or maybe they were trying to say the Kazon are so loving stupid they have space travel but think they have to go steal water from other people on desert planets instead of collecting ice literally anywhere.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:07
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Grand Fromage posted:The water thing was hilarious. They really gave it no thought at all. Or maybe they were trying to say the Kazon are so loving stupid they have space travel but think they have to go steal water from other people on desert planets instead of collecting ice literally anywhere. See, the Kazon not knowing that ice turns into water would have made their entire story so much better.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:17
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Sash! posted:Captain Guy From Lost. Horror veteran and Millennium co-star Terry O'Quinn. 
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Aug 22, 2016 05:22
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Grand Fromage posted:The water thing was hilarious. They really gave it no thought at all. Or maybe they were trying to say the Kazon are so loving stupid they have space travel but think they have to go steal water from other people on desert planets instead of collecting ice literally anywhere. It's just not as fun if there aren't any victims.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:22
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"I put meatloaf in the oven, and there's turkeys in there now" Yes, this seems like a thing I should hail the bridge and tell the captain. (TOS, Charlie X)
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Aug 22, 2016 05:55
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"Live Turkeys!" My wife actually, independently, started a watch through of TOS Saturday morning, because it's on out MeTV affiliate Saturdays before SvenGoolie. She said she wanted to check out how the series started and developed. She was quite puzzled that they had two "Crewmember exhibits godlike power" episodes in a row. I told her to start counting how many times they defeat a computer with a faulty logic game. "I hate you, but I love you more"  error error error errrrorrrrrrrr
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Aug 22, 2016 06:07
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I love the wrap up at the end of Identity Crisis. Hey, we saved Geordi from mutating into a feral alien creature, can we do anything for all the other folks that did? Nope it's far too late for them, just trust me on this. No point in even trying.
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Aug 22, 2016 06:52
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Fister Roboto posted:I love the wrap up at the end of Identity Crisis. Hey, we saved Geordi from mutating into a feral alien creature, can we do anything for all the other folks that did? Nope it's far too late for them, just trust me on this. No point in even trying. Thanks Star Trek.
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Aug 22, 2016 07:10
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Tears In A Vial posted:"I put meatloaf in the oven, and there's turkeys in there now" Fun fact: that's Gene Roddenberry's voice on the intercom, reporting the meatloaf situation to the Captain.
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Aug 22, 2016 07:11
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The_Doctor posted:Aww yiss. Just showed up on my Netflix. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 07:18
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Eiba posted:I was a pretty small child when TNG was first airing... and I have vivid memories of this episode and how utterly terrifying it was. I don't care how little sense it made, that scene in the holodeck where Geordi removes all the people and there's still a humanoid shadow is still one of the most fundamentally disturbing things to me, and I still sometimes have nightmares that feel like that scene, twenty years later. 
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Aug 22, 2016 07:45
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Rhyno posted:I guess I haven't gotten to that episode yet. Yeah, it's weird, but for whatever reason, the Kazon backstory doesn't come up until Alliances half way through season 2. I kind of like that episode because (while kind of bad), it actually addresses the conflict between Federation ideals and the reality of Voyager's situation in a way that's more nuanced than "we'll stick to these ideals no matter what" (even if that's more or less how the episode ends). Plus, we get to see Janeway tying to be a Picard style peace maker and failing miserably, which is pretty entertaining. WickedHate posted:It's literally canon that the Borg didn't assimilate them because doing so would make them worse off. I always figured this line was intended to be a sort of self-mocking mea culpa like "sorry about the crappy villains," but it really just felt like a final gently caress you to the fans. The Kazon weren't bad because they were so weak, fractured, or primitive -- that was actually the one thing made them interesting. They didn't have a sophisticated culture or crazy Star Fleet super tech, but they didn't need them to be a threat. Just having more ships than Voyager could possibly face alone and vast territories to hunt them in (and good reason to do so because of the aforementioned supertech) made them dangerous enough. There were certainly a lot of bad things about the Kazon. Their introduction in the pilot as Mad Max style wasteland nomads that also have space ships was weird as hell (and hopelessly shallow and rushed because that episode is an overstuffed clusterfuck). They took way too long to get established as anything more than stupid, balkanized Klingons, the factions themselves were embarrassingly undifferentiated, and they had the horrible misfortune of being mixed up in the Seska spermjacking plot (forget Threshold, this was the real nadir of early Voyager). Here's the thing though, I actually liked Maje Culluh as a villain (except when he was just being used as a prop so Seska could play Lady MacBeth). He was canny, ambitious, and tough. He wasn't as smart as he thought he was and the writers really played up his cupidity, but he still managed to outmaneuver Janeway on several occasions. With better writing he could have been a really compelling character. Instead they dropped him, and his entire species, like a hot potato. His last appearance is literally him fleeing the ship and swearing revenge. On any show where the writers gave a poo poo about their characters or their setting he would have returned for a final confrontation or at least gotten some kind of resolution, but sometime around season 3, the writers just stopped giving a poo poo about all their previously established storylines and all the things that made the Delta Quadrant feel distinct as a setting and just started desperately retooling the series into TNG Mark 2. The Kazon and Vidians disappear without proper sendoffs (just throw away lines about how Voyager has left their space), the Maquis/Star Fleet rift stops seeming to matter at all, and three years of character growth for Kes and all the mysteries regarding her people, their powers, and their real relationship with the Caretakes come to nothing because she's replaced by a sexy borg lady. From then on out worldbuilding stops mattering. Voyager enters a region of space where everyone has replicators and transporters again, any alien species not named "The Borg" disappears after two or three episodes (even the Krenem, Hirogen and Malon, their last stabs at alien races that are more than just random foreheads, only appear in a few episodes), character development starts running on autopilot (except for when it's The Doctor and 7 Show), and nothing about the setting seems distinct or interesting anymore. Duckbox fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 08:07
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I know this isn't why they did it the way they did it, but having consistent kazon personalities showing up wouldn't have made sense with the way they were writing things. Voyager was consistently flying quickly away from them, so the only way they should have had consistent characters showing up is if they were being chased or if they had a storyline where they had to stick around and area doing something. Both of these could have had interesting story lines attached to them, but neither really happened. Of course, they were cool with Neelix knowing about vegetables on planets several years travel from where he was from, so it's not like they ever really followed this logic. It seemed like they figured that the delta quadrant was this big homogeneous place or something... for a show about an odyssey they did a terrible job of communicating scale or geography that would actually make it seem like a journey.
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Aug 22, 2016 08:22
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I understand why they felt the need to change out the aliens now and then, but never giving the Kazons a proper sendoff was still awful. They were the main villains for two seasons and then they were suddenly just gone. As for how they kept running into Culluh and the others, I figure their tendency to stop and dick around at every interesting nebula and M class planet probably contributed to that. They never seemed like they'd be that hard to follow. What really gets me is that once the writers decided to stop using races like the Kazon, Vidians, and Talaxians in their story, they never really bothered to come up with anything new. The Borg were a story we already knew. The Krenem never got any characterization outside of that one time ship, the Hirogen and Malon were completely one-note ("hunters" and "polluters") respectively, and I can't even think of any other later Voyager species that showed up for longer than a two-parter. They could always handwave it by saying they were in a new region of space, but the slower travel they did early on felt more like real motion because we actually got to see when they reached the edge of Neelix's experience, or when they traveled from the territory of one Kazon sect to the next. By contrast, everything after Borg space is just a blur because, no matter how many times then ended an episode with "we shaved x years off our journey," it never really felt like the region of space they'd just entered was that different than the one they just left. Plus, even though they take years and years of their trip with transwarp coils, quantum slipstream, and that one catapult thing, they still act like they're hopelessly far from home, and they also somehow keep running into Borg and Hirogen.
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Aug 22, 2016 08:59
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Basics was kinda meant to be their send-off, but they weren't sure if they'd have to revisit the well so they didn't make it solid and say 'this is happening because it's their last chance before we leave their range forever' I still think that Voyager should've been structured like Buffy, with a new season-long enemy each season that corresponded to a new area of space.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:00
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MikeJF posted:Basics was kinda meant to be their send-off, but they weren't sure if they'd have to revisit the well so they didn't make it solid and say 'this is happening because it's their last chance before we leave their range forever' That would have worked pretty well. It'd be cool if they changed the space visuals each season as well, like making season 3 near the galactic core so there are just shitloads of stars in all the space shots or something.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:07
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Voyager is infuriating because of how many great ideas it starts with and then utterly ruins in the execution.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:10
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Eiba posted:I was a pretty small child when TNG was first airing... and I have vivid memories of this episode and how utterly terrifying it was. I don't care how little sense it made, that scene in the holodeck where Geordi removes all the people and there's still a humanoid shadow is still one of the most fundamentally disturbing things to me, and I still sometimes have nightmares that feel like that scene, twenty years later. Me too  .T.C. posted:I know this isn't why they did it the way they did it, but having consistent kazon personalities showing up wouldn't have made sense with the way they were writing things. Voyager was consistently flying quickly away from them, so the only way they should have had consistent characters showing up is if they were being chased or if they had a storyline where they had to stick around and area doing something. Both of these could have had interesting story lines attached to them, but neither really happened. Just gimme a metaphor for the badguy who keeps riding horses until they're spent and stealing a new one to keep up the chase. Make the fancy Starfleet ship actually feel threatened because the person after them doesn't care about the long-term efficiency of his engines.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:15
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I don't know what happened to Voyager, exactly, but even though Season 4 on is frequently "better" episode-to-episode (all the "good episode" guides seem to pick pretty lightly from the first three seasons), the early years feel like a show that's actually trying things, a show that actually has potential, that you can actually believe in and root for. I know it gets poo poo on a lot for bad episodes and some of the character elements (clingy Neelix, flute music Chakotay, "hot-blooded" B'lanna) are completely indefensible, but the worst thing about Voyager -- the bland pointlessness of it all, the sense that no one actually liked the show they were making or cared about doing a good job -- just got worse. That one Ronald D. Moore interview that seems to have really deeply informed the fan consensus of Voyager feels a lot more accurate to the later seasons than the early ones. The fact is that they did try to set up tensions between the Maquis and Star Fleet. They did try to introduce interesting new aliens and play with big sci-fi ideas. They did have the ship running out of resources and getting into trouble far from home. They did show the limits of Star Fleet protocol and Federation ideals. They were just really, really bad at it. They did all these things that they thought were good ideas and, in many cases, were good ideas, but they were tired and incompetent and overworked and underqualified and no one was there to act as quality control or make sure that everyone was working together and that the vision for the show would become its week to week reality. A few grueling, sloppy seasons later, whatever joy and vision they'd had originally was dead and the whole thing just became about keeping people's butts in their seats by giving them something half-decent to watch episode-to-episode. The fact that that made the show better is probably the most tragic part.
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Aug 22, 2016 11:59
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Chef would have been a perfect place for a celebrity cameo. Can you imagine Gordon Ramsay appearing as the ship's chef de cuisine? They should have had Seth Macfarlane be the chef just for the stupid pun.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:13
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It's a good sign that STD is billed as a Netflix Original (even if it isn't, really). I think CBS will use it to promote All Access for the first season, and then just wash their hands and hand it off to Netflix to continue running it.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:21
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Mokotow posted:It's a good sign that STD is billed as a Netflix Original (even if it isn't, really). In those regions, it is. A Netflix Original is simply a show that they have exclusive first run distribution rights. Aside from a movie that isn't out yet, Netflix doesn't actually make any of their original content. They just bought the distribution rights.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:45
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T.C. posted:I know this isn't why they did it the way they did it, but having consistent kazon personalities showing up wouldn't have made sense with the way they were writing things. Voyager was consistently flying quickly away from them, so the only way they should have had consistent characters showing up is if they were being chased or if they had a storyline where they had to stick around and area doing something. Both of these could have had interesting story lines attached to them, but neither really happened. Still not sure how they ran into his people after doing like 50 shortcuts across the quadrant being like an insane distance from where they met Neelix.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:54
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bull3964 posted:In those regions, it is. Didn't they make house of cards? They ran their algorithm and it said people like house of cards and Kevin spacey in leading roles so they made the show.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:49
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Mokotow posted:It's a good sign that STD is billed as a Netflix Original (even if it isn't, really). I think CBS will use it to promote All Access for the first season, and then just wash their hands and hand it off to Netflix to continue running it.
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Aug 22, 2016 15:02
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Cojawfee posted:Didn't they make house of cards? They ran their algorithm and it said people like house of cards and Kevin spacey in leading roles so they made the show. Nope! It's a common misconception. House of Cards was created by an independent studio (Media Rights Capital) and they shopped the show around to various networks (including Showtime, HBO, and AMC.) Netflix's algorithms told them that this show would be something their subscribers would watch, so they picked it up.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:31
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MikeJF posted:Basics was kinda meant to be their send-off, but they weren't sure if they'd have to revisit the well so they didn't make it solid and say 'this is happening because it's their last chance before we leave their range forever' I think a lot a serialized shows would benefit from being structured like Buffy. It provides catharsis to have some closure without waiting for the show to finally wrap up and I've seen too many shows fall into the traps of either "We got renewed for another season. Someone come up with a new and exciting reason not to wrap up our current storyline" or "We got cancelled. Someone throw some poo poo together so we can cram two years of plot into three episodes."
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Aug 22, 2016 18:44
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Tunicate posted:That would have worked pretty well. It'd be cool if they changed the space visuals each season as well, like making season 3 near the galactic core so there are just shitloads of stars in all the space shots or something. Didn't they have a few episodes where they were in a region with no visible stars?
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Aug 22, 2016 18:57
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Duckbag posted:That one Ronald D. Moore interview that seems to have really deeply informed the fan consensus of Voyager If anyone hasn't read it, it's here: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm The visual design of that website is horrendous, so be prepared to copy-paste the text into something so you can read it without your eyes bleeding. But it's worth it, the man absolutely nails what went wrong with Voyager.
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Aug 22, 2016 19:20
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Mokotow posted:It's a good sign that STD is billed as a Netflix Original (even if it isn't, really). I think CBS will use it to promote All Access for the first season, and then just wash their hands and hand it off to Netflix to continue running it. I think Netflix brands anything they have exclusive rights to in a country as 'Netflix Original'. In the UK Netflix got Breaking Bad before it even hit TV (I'm not sure if it ever hit TV over here, actually) and it was promoted as a Netflix Original.
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