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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I see where you're coming from, but also think you're dead wrong. Wrong about what? Do you have an articulable complaint?
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Aug 24, 2016 09:09
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sarehu posted:Wrong about what? Do you have an articulable complaint? I did but I deleted it before posting because of an incoming migraine. Would rather have one headache than two.
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Aug 24, 2016 09:56
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Has anybody dealt with the politics of an organization trying to take over the responsibility of doing every last ounce of design, architecture, framework definition, and infrastructure from all other software teams? Just to emphasize, I mean all that, but none of the coding. It seems like the dumbest thing in the universe, and I am pretty sure every road that leads that way is paved in a pile of corpses and ends in a bottomless pit. I understand the idea of architecture review boards and the like, but I'm dealing with a group that gets pissed if I declare an interface or something while solving a problem. Like, I have to literally code between their lines, and if I need that abstraction, I file a ticket to them. The thing is that they don't have a direct responsibility towards the work. They just are the people that are "here to help" with the infrastructure and blablabla I want to rip off my face.
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Aug 24, 2016 17:25
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That sounds loving stupid and I'd gladly read the inevitable hilarious stories that come from your workplace
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Aug 24, 2016 17:27
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It could be worse. You could be working on a 20 year old code base with zero documentation, review, or QA where every engineer interprets the product manager's requirements however they like
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Aug 24, 2016 18:31
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Necc0 posted:It could be worse. You could be working on a 20 year old code base with zero documentation, review, or QA where every engineer interprets the product manager's requirements however they like I dunno, I think I'd rather have good developers with a lovely codebase than good developers who aren't allowed to do anything without going through an endless bureaucracy. Of course if you have bad developers then you're sunk either way, but at least in the former case people can actually get things done.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:35
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The developers are across the whole spectrum, but mostly bad.
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Aug 24, 2016 20:22
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Necc0 posted:It could be worse. You could be working on a 20 year old code base with zero documentation, review, or QA where every engineer interprets the product manager's requirements however they like You think these people that want to do all this architecture stuff will give us something new? Some of them have been pushing the same poo poo for over a decade too.
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Aug 24, 2016 20:36
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:You think these people that want to do all this architecture stuff will give us something new? Some of them have been pushing the same poo poo for over a decade too. I can sort of understand not wanting to let a junior dev declare whatever publicly visible methods on an interface, but the concept seems pretty crazy and not typical in my experience. Do they also scream bloody murder if you declare non-public methods or classes? Because if so I'd just go find a job that lets you do your work..
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Aug 24, 2016 20:55
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leper khan posted:I can sort of understand not wanting to let a junior dev declare whatever publicly visible methods on an interface, but the concept seems pretty crazy and not typical in my experience. To make things funnier, I can't even get them to tell me what they think a framework actually is. I used the textbook definition when I proposed one and got shat on for creating infrastructure or something. My own boss suggested I just call it a library, which we started doing. Actually--thinking about it--when I mentioned defining a framework for this to be able to mock the environment, I wonder if some of them though I was using the term "mocking" as in "making fun of." God drat it that is pathetic. Just to check my math here actually: I would say that a bunch of code you call is a library whereas a framework is the Soviet Russia counterpart: it calls you. That generally implies a certain amount of architecture and defining lines to color in for some standard. I'd like to think that the people that are working on the particular topic day in and day out are in a better position to define the framework. Edit: Not only are they not reviewing it, they are not writing any of the code, or doing anything else but "helping" by supplying a framework to us.
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Aug 24, 2016 21:34
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How does a junior dev get any experience without designing their own objects, receiving feedback from seniors, and seeing their design in action?
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Aug 24, 2016 21:34
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rt4 posted:How does a junior dev get any experience without designing their own objects, receiving feedback from seniors, and seeing their design in action?
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Aug 24, 2016 21:37
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:They just are the people that are "here to help" with the infrastructure and blablabla I want to rip off my face. Some approaches to consider: 1) Pre-chew everything possible. File tickets when they'd want you to, just include your already-completed version of the request as a "suggestion" 2) Put them in the critical path. If you're working on something critical and this is significantly delaying you, make that obvious to the business person who cares about your work.
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Aug 24, 2016 21:43
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So one of the places I'm interviewing with will have three pair-programming sessions working on different engineers [e: LOL great typo] on different types of problems as opposed to white-boarding. I'm not sure if I like this more or less than typical interviews.
Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Aug 24, 2016 |
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Aug 24, 2016 22:12
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Good Will Hrunting posted:So one of the places I'm interviewing with will have three pair-programming sessions working on different engineers [e: LOL great typo] on different types of problems as opposed to white-boarding. I'm not sure if I like this more or less than typical interviews. I mean it's basically like a practical... except with a guy breathing down your neck the whole time. I dunno.
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Aug 24, 2016 23:12
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:An awful condescending work environment. I think that the only real option is leaving and finding a new job. I don't see what kind of career potential you can have where the people who make choices about how code should be written at such a low level don't write any of the code. I'm curious about how long some of these people have not coded and how rusty they are. Also how many are just asserting control so they can appear valuable and hang on to their jobs.
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Aug 25, 2016 03:02
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Is it just the people I've worked with over the years, or do most people have no clue about database design and normalization? It's so easy, but nearly every database I've worked on is just plain wrong.
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Aug 25, 2016 03:22
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rt4 posted:Is it just the people I've worked with over the years, or do most people have no clue about database design and normalization? It's so easy, but nearly every database I've worked on is just plain wrong. I have met some : - "Hey, there are no primary keys here. There are no foreign keys either." - "Don't worry, we check in software." - "Yeah but we are using a RDBMS, that's the entire point of it existing, to check that poo poo for us." - "We check in software" In my case those were TATA consultants. Luckily, it was the exception and not the rule. But they do exist. Normalization or de-normalization ... you may as well talk chinese to them.
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Aug 25, 2016 03:38
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Humphrey Appleby posted:I'm curious about how long some of these people have not coded and how rusty they are. Also how many are just asserting control so they can appear valuable and hang on to their jobs. Last boss did this with everything, not just code. The company had everything in WinForms and when I got assigned a task that involved burning down a piece of old software and rewriting it, I proposed using WPF (and associated good design practices) to make it more modern and maintainable. And yes, I also wanted experience using technology that was created this century so I wouldn't get pigeonholed into being a CRUD factory worker. His response was, "No, you don't want to be on the cutting edge, you won't be able to find a job!"  So it's 2012 at this point; nobody who knew poo poo about the .NET world would call WPF "cutting edge." Oh it had its problems but it was still mature and reasonably well documented and quite well suited to the basic tasks we needed to accomplish for this application. rear end in a top hat was just trying to be In Charge but he didn't know a goddamn thing about what I was talking about so he tried to blow smoke up my rear end. So in one sentence, he: 1) Told me he didn't know a goddamn thing about modern programming technology (which isn't a deal breaker in a boss, on its own) 2) Insulted my intelligence by expecting me to believe not one but TWO ludicrous assertions (that WPF was on the cutting edge and that being up to date on tech would be somehow BAD for my career), which in turn forfeited any respect I had for him 3) Insulted my intelligence AGAIN by making it something so easily researched and refuted 4) Lost my trust by lying to my face This sticks in my mind because it was the first incident that clued me in to his bullshit. If it were just this one event it wouldn't have left such a lasting impression, but it was just the beginning; the SH/SC threads are littered with my stories of him. Seriously all he had to do was ask what WPF was and I could have given him an explanation as brief or thorough as he wanted, but he's such a narcissist that he couldn't say he didn't KNOW something. Scandalous! (I did the project in WPF anyway because he wasn't going to magically figure it out, and he loved it). Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Aug 25, 2016 05:33
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The good news is that the people trying to pull this infrastructure stunt were moved into a different organization and have lost a lot of reach, but they are still trying. It means they can still slow everything down. They had one meeting to make the argument and tried to conclude we needed six more to work together. My new management did not know the game, but they haven't bought it so far. Any advice on Amazon interviews? My first experience was extremely hosed up, but an actual development team wants me on the phone soon.
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Aug 25, 2016 05:56
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:The good news is that the people trying to pull this infrastructure stunt were moved into a different organization and have lost a lot of reach, but they are still trying. It means they can still slow everything down. They had one meeting to make the argument and tried to conclude we needed six more to work together. My new management did not know the game, but they haven't bought it so far. Know how to solve algorithm problems (word problem => algorithm => code) Dont do a phone screen from a loud place or a place with lovely reception If you claim youre an expert on something on resume expect to get hammered by a real expert Dont be nervous
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Aug 25, 2016 06:00
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Good Will Hrunting posted:So one of the places I'm interviewing with will have three pair-programming sessions working on different engineers [e: LOL great typo] on different types of problems as opposed to white-boarding. I'm not sure if I like this more or less than typical interviews. That sounds great. As a bonus you get the chance to bail if your future colleagues are assholes.
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Aug 25, 2016 07:39
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Any advice on Amazon interviews? (I can think of only one of my friends who has worked there that hasn't left unhappy, and he's only a couple months in anyways)
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Aug 25, 2016 08:21
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:Exploit them for the travel if it's an onsite interview, then reject them if they give you an offer. I worked at Amazon for three years a decade ago. We re-org'd once a year and I had two bosses quit on me, so I had five bosses in the space of three years. And all of the engineers had to be on a pager duty rotation. At the end of those three years I was somewhere in the 90th percentile in terms of seniority, if I recall correctly. ...frankly I'm amazed that Amazon is doing so well, considering what I saw of its culture and what I've heard since I left (basically nothing good).
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Aug 25, 2016 15:40
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Amazon has the same model as Goldman Sachs or Cravath: if you can deal with their bullshit long enough, they'll give you a lot of money, and if not, the exit opportunities are great. The difference is that the other firms pay out cash and not Amazon stock....
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Aug 25, 2016 22:59
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How much is "a lot of money"? I thought they paid like 70% of what other big tech companies pay but if you stay for more than two years then you start vesting properly and finally you're making the big bucks: maybe 90% of what LinkedIn/Facebook/Google/Uber would have paid you when they first hired you, but chances are you got a raise and/or more equity at some point, so those companies are still way ahead.
oliveoil fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 00:32
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You have to adjust for cost of living. Seattle's not cheap, but it's not as wildly expensive as San Francisco, so that's not as big a discrepancy as it looks on a numbers vs. numbers basis.
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Aug 26, 2016 02:14
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oliveoil posted:How much is "a lot of money"? I thought they paid like 70% of what other big tech companies pay but if you stay for more than two years then you start vesting properly and finally you're making the big bucks: maybe 90% of what LinkedIn/Facebook/Google/Uber would have paid you when they first hired you, but chances are you got a raise and/or more equity at some point, so those companies are still way ahead. Do people really consider linkedin and uber as tech companies on par with Amazon? I consider Amazon, FB, Google and maybe MS or Apple as the top big tech companies.
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Aug 26, 2016 03:23
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oliveoil posted:How much is "a lot of money"? I thought they paid like 70% of what other big tech companies pay but if you stay for more than two years then you start vesting properly and finally you're making the big bucks: maybe 90% of what LinkedIn/Facebook/Google/Uber would have paid you when they first hired you, but chances are you got a raise and/or more equity at some point, so those companies are still way ahead. Are you really suggesting that midlevel Amazon SDEs make 90% of what an entry level SDE makes elsewhere? That seems tenuous. Anecdotally, I make about 180k a year after about 2 years. This years it's a bit more due to the stock jump, but I'm not counting that. My next promotion would put me into the high 200s/low 300s. I could make a bit more by job hopping within Seattle, and more still if I job hopped to the bay. Though, that would be a rude increase in cost of living AND I probably wouldn't be able to walk to work anymore  .
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Aug 26, 2016 03:57
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I get the impression also that Amazon has a pretty big pay differential between people who are kinda generic developers and people who are a little more specialized. I got an offer from them for a research scientist position a few years ago, and it was in a range that made it a little hard to turn down; I've heard that people who are really good at distributed systems or other hot areas have similar experiences.
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Aug 26, 2016 04:13
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FamDav posted:Are you really suggesting that midlevel Amazon SDEs make 90% of what an entry level SDE makes elsewhere? That seems tenuous. 90% might not be exactly right, but Google offers around 170k total comp to new grads. That's excluding perks that Amazon lacks, like free food or a good 401k program.
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Aug 26, 2016 04:28
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FamDav posted:Are you really suggesting that midlevel Amazon SDEs make 90% of what an entry level SDE makes elsewhere?
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Aug 26, 2016 07:38
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I mean, that doesn't sound too far off the mark? The person I was responding to said he made 170k+ at a "comparable company" after 2 years. Assuming that + is 5-10%, we make about the same amount of money. If he's in the bay he's got a much higher rent and state income tax to pay. I also don't have to commute an hour to get to work, but now that it seems like every company out there has offices in SLU, that's less of a differentiator.
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Aug 26, 2016 15:26
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Enraged Beekeeper posted:90% might not be exactly right, but Google offers around 170k total comp to new grads. That's excluding perks that Amazon lacks, like free food or a good 401k program. My total comp w/o benefits and perks is ~250k as an L5 at G, but that's NYC (and SF) markets. It sounds like the biggest benefit to Amazon is Seattle being much cheaper so your paycheck buys a lot more. The biggest drawback would be their (allegedly) poisonous and cheap culture.
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Aug 26, 2016 15:46
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mrmcd posted:My total comp w/o benefits and perks is ~250k as an L5 at G, but that's NYC (and SF) markets. It sounds like the biggest benefit to Amazon is Seattle being much cheaper so your paycheck buys a lot more. The biggest drawback would be their (allegedly) poisonous and cheap culture. There's a lot of competition in Seattle so its usually got the same COL adjustment as bay area. As another anecdote I make ~235 as a L4 in MTV, my second year (most of which was at L3) I made about 200.
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Aug 26, 2016 17:55
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mrmcd posted:My total comp w/o benefits and perks is ~250k as an L5 at G, but that's NYC (and SF) markets. It sounds like the biggest benefit to Amazon is Seattle being much cheaper so your paycheck buys a lot more. The biggest drawback would be their (allegedly) poisonous and cheap culture. drat, I gotta level up. I'm pulling like 85 total w/ my annual bonus without considering my worthless stock at some startup also in NYC. This is technically my 2nd developer job on my resume, but for the purposes of actually doing/learning things it is my first with no formal education or anything. Would be nice to be pulling 250~
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Aug 26, 2016 21:11
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The March Hare posted:drat, I gotta level up. I'm pulling like 85 total w/ my annual bonus without considering my worthless stock at some startup also in NYC. This is technically my 2nd developer job on my resume, but for the purposes of actually doing/learning things it is my first with no formal education or anything. Would be nice to be pulling 250~ I'm at 90k base + a varying bonus dependent on company/personal performance with 2.5 years of experience in NYC but I'm looking for 115 minimum at my next job, which I'm currently interviewing for.
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Aug 26, 2016 21:14
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The March Hare posted:drat, I gotta level up. I'm pulling like 85 total w/ my annual bonus without considering my worthless stock at some startup also in NYC. This is technically my 2nd developer job on my resume, but for the purposes of actually doing/learning things it is my first with no formal education or anything. Would be nice to be pulling 250~ Pretty sure it's extremely rare to pull 250 early in your career. But I have a pretty garbage salary track record myself, so what do I know. I also wouldn't mind pulling 250, but I can't complain too much about where I'm at (low six figgie club, but maybe my options will be significant [lolnope] when they start vesting early next year).
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Aug 26, 2016 21:21
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That's total comp though. I've found base tends to cap out well below 200k for most people.
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Aug 26, 2016 21:21
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leper khan posted:Pretty sure it's extremely rare to pull 250 early in your career. Oh yeah, I'm certainly not complaining. I like the place I work at and my salary is higher than most people I know at my age. Was more marveling at the idea of a quarter of a million a year in comp than anything else.
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Aug 26, 2016 21:22
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