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Even though I wasn't really aware of The Wick's influence when I started playing the CCG (it was around The Hidden Emperor arc), I remember making a lot of embarrassing internet posts complaining about the Lion getting shafted in the story or in cards coming out.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:29
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potatocubed posted:Given the Lion's penchant for terrible harsh childhoods that border on abuse, I was mildly disappointed that none of the Lion fortune tables contained 'you failed your gempukku and your mother killed you for it -- make a new character' or something similar. I think the Lion actually have more bad events in their tables than the other clans, it's just that none are YOU SPENT 1 CP, NOW YOU ARE A TRUE RONIN WITH NO GEAR GET hosed. But there's stuff like "Your ancestor was tasked to carry important scrolls in battle, but he was caught up in the battle and the scrolls were never recovered, lose 1 Glory rank and get Black Sheep" in tables where other clans can only get bonuses. And Black Sheep is effectively a minor version of a Clan ronin since you can't advance beyond Rank 1 in your family school and everyone in the family hates your guts. EDIT: the super Spartan amazon schtick of the Matsu means their childhoods are worse than those of the Yogo - the family literally cursed to betray everything that they love. Traveller fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Aug 31, 2016 |
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Aug 31, 2016 22:30
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Traveller posted:EDIT: the super Spartan amazon schtick of the Matsu means their childhoods are worse than those of the Yogo - the family literally cursed to betray everything that they love. Yeaah, I really want to like the Lion, but just about every detail I hear about them is off-putting at best. Besides poo poo like above (which later editions try to brush under the rug), my biggest issue is that Lion always seem to be the "NO FUN ALLOWED" Clan. Even the Crab get stuff like Draw Lot plays to lighten the mood. At least in the Emerald Stars setting the Lion become Space Amish, which gives a player something to work off of besides "generic Samurai guy".
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Aug 31, 2016 22:48
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I suppose that would be in character for Wick: Make the guys who are supposed to be the banners for the culture as it exists (Crane and Lions) obviously insufferable pricks.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:50
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SirPhoebos posted:Yeaah, I really want to like the Lion, but just about every detail I hear about them is off-putting at best. Besides poo poo like above (which later editions try to brush under the rug), my biggest issue is that Lion always seem to be the "NO FUN ALLOWED" Clan. Even the Crab get stuff like Draw Lot plays to lighten the mood. My impression of the Crab was that they might be one of the most light-hearted Clans to hang around in practice. Life is hard, unfair, and probably short, so drink up and have fun while you can. I figured that was probably part of their conflict with the Crane - the Crane are very proper and formal and refined, and meanwhile their next-door-neighbors are laughing it up to dad jokes over beer and hot dogs.
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Aug 31, 2016 22:57
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Night10194 posted:I suppose that would be in character for Wick: Make the guys who are supposed to be the banners for the culture as it exists (Crane and Lions) obviously insufferable pricks. Even the Crane showed signs of lightening up by 3rd edition when they introduced a minor character named Doji Barahime who got into feuds straight from Fraizer and subtlety took the piss out of the setting.
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Aug 31, 2016 23:18
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Cythereal posted:My impression of the Crab was that they might be one of the most light-hearted Clans to hang around in practice. Life is hard, unfair, and probably short, so drink up and have fun while you can. I figured that was probably part of their conflict with the Crane - the Crane are very proper and formal and refined, and meanwhile their next-door-neighbors are laughing it up to dad jokes over beer and hot dogs. This now makes me think of L5R as some kind of Sitcom in a HOA having petty griping over grass length or how many lawn gnomes one can have by honor, with the group banning against 'larger threats' (the Shadowlands is an obnoxious group of suits trying to turn everything into condos)
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Aug 31, 2016 23:20
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Ikoma bards are probably hands-down the worst school in the game in first edition. Glory isn't particularly useful and the work required to obtain it is time that could be spent... gaining glory in other ways. "in first edition" They've never really gotten that much better.
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Aug 31, 2016 23:21
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Robindaybird posted:This now makes me think of L5R as some kind of Sitcom in a HOA having petty griping over grass length or how many lawn gnomes one can have by honor, with the group banning against 'larger threats' (the Shadowlands is an obnoxious group of suits trying to turn everything into condos) And everyone is hella racist against those urban nezumu types. You know the kind.
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Aug 31, 2016 23:31
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Lion is weird to me, as the stout, resolute militaristic and honorable dudes.... Except that's also the Crab clan? Lion are just bigger, not on the frontlines of the Shadowland warzone, and have better table manners. Maybe I'm not getting the whole picture just from Traveller's writeup. EDIT: While discussing this thread with a friend I went back and noticed that Kakita Ransei's ancestor ability doesn't seem to specify you need to be using a blade to use it, which makes me imagine some Crane running around kicking people in the junk through full o-yoroi. Crasical fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 00:04
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Night10194 posted:I suppose that would be in character for Wick: Make the guys who are supposed to be the banners for the culture as it exists (Crane and Lions) obviously insufferable pricks. I think all the clans are pretty much insufferable pricks, at least as stereotyped and written up in their clan books. The more I read of this F&F the more I think that the art of playing a character in L5R is taking the basic stereotype and dialling it back several notches: a Matsu who is fierce and short tempered, but also a loving parent who's sent their only child off to be raised by another clan as an act of kindness; a Crab who stands at the wall and writes achingly beautiful poems; a Crane who loves to make ridiculous double entendres all the time, daring other people to notice them... that sort of thing.
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Sep 1, 2016 00:07
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The Lion are basically the exemplars of Bushido. That's their job. They are arrogant, violent, bullheaded and aggressive. They are also honorable, just, honest and courageous. The Crab are the bulwark against the Shadowlands. They embrace dishonor in order to get the job done. The Crab are warriors who justify the means with the ends. The Lion do not. Ever. The Lion do not compromise their honor. The Lion do not compromise their morals. The Lion are the Empire's bulwark against the outside and the Emperor's favored army when the Emperor needs something done and done hard. The Lion never take the dishonorable route, even if it'd be easier. (Well, the ideal, stereotypical Lion.) Essentially, they're both warrior clans, and both have little patience for court, but for entirely different reasons. The Crab are pragmatic, obsessed with one very specific duty and disdainful of anything that doesn't directly support that duty. The Lion are idealistic, and their disdain for court and politics is because they truly wish that it wasn't required - they believe that every samurai should be able to be the ideal, to be honorable and just and true and loyal, and that people like the Scorpion or the Crane are just hiding dishonor behind pretty words and perfume - which is absolutely true, a lot of the time. Like, one thing to keep in mind is: First Edition writing was rough as hell. The sharp edges of a lot of stuff were sanded off over time. The Lion absolutely are assholes, mind, but they are assholes because they expect everyone else to be able to live up to their standards.
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Sep 1, 2016 00:09
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All of the Lion families are pretty different too. The Akodo are cold, isolated, all about tactics and war. The Matsu are brash and prone to anger. The Ikoma are manipulative and intellectual. The Kitsu are boring. So there'S a lot of variance there.
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Sep 1, 2016 00:26
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I actually really like the Kitsu, but their thing is basically that as the editions change and the game moves away from magic poo poo being all over the place...in the RPG, anyway, it's still all over in other places...the Kitsu don't. The Kitsu become, in fact, one of the most mystical groups in the entire setting, because they can see your spiritual self, they can travel to spiritual realms, etc. It's really neat, plus their power in the latest edition is hilarious - they can turn off other people's spiritual advantages because Kitsu, motherfucker.
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Sep 1, 2016 00:30
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:You meant Mantis right? Insofar as the Mantis are descendants of the Crab chiasaur11 posted:Yes, Mantis is one of the clans that brings the largest temptation of straying from the Crab, the True Path. It's their emphasis on duty and pragmatism that I like, enough to justify a Crab/Scorpion alliance after the Spider clan became a thing and the Scorpion ended up with a Shadowland in their very own backyard. I always wanted to run a game loosely based on 13 Assassins, where a bunch of Crabs are ordered by their Champion to become Ronin, so they can murder a bunch of Imperial Officials suspected of taint without it causing repercussions to the Crab. My hope, if such a campaign happens, is that by the end of it every PC and major NPC will be dead. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 02:07
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Just like Feng Shui, I imagine a ton of L5R games end with doomed last stands. 13 Assasins was amazing. Night10194 posted:I suppose that would be in character for Wick: Make the guys who are supposed to be the banners for the culture as it exists (Crane and Lions) obviously insufferable pricks. That would make sense if the game encouraged playing scruffy Mifune-esque ronin. Or if it was about how, IRL, the samurai were almost always huge pricks, as a class. Rich jerks who could legally cut down commoners. It depends on the person, I guess. Pendragon's write-up made the game sound awesome, but it couldn't make my sympathize with the knight class, and the more it tried to emulate chivalric romances the worst they sounded. I can easily see having the same problem with samurai. Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 03:03
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Way of the Lion was always the most underwhelming of the clan books, but I was trying to remember exactly why, and then I remembered: it didn't really tell us anything new about the clan. I mean, sure, you had the weird backstories of the Ikoma and Kitsu, but those were apocryphal and didn't do much to change the relatively dull complexion of their respective families at the time. The Ikoma were basically professors in kimonos who hid the real truth from people and the Kitsu were really into dead people but not in any really defined way. But mostly there just weren't many surprises. We found out the Lion were pretty much what we already knew at face value, only with more words telling us so.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:58
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Count Chocula posted:Just like Feng Shui, I imagine a ton of L5R games end with doomed last stands. Pendragon is deliberately about being one in a line of larger-than-life Arthurian characters, which is not necessarily for everyone.
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Sep 1, 2016 03:59
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Way of the Lion was always the most underwhelming of the clan books, but I was trying to remember exactly why, and then I remembered: it didn't really tell us anything new about the clan. I mean, sure, you had the weird backstories of the Ikoma and Kitsu, but those were apocryphal and didn't do much to change the relatively dull complexion of their respective families at the time. The Ikoma were basically professors in kimonos who hid the real truth from people and the Kitsu were really into dead people but not in any really defined way. You've probably heard of this one: White Wolf fandom developed something called the Chupp Test for assessing splatbooks. It's just this question: "If you weren't interested in playing one of these guys before, did the book change your mind?" Way of the Lion doesn't pass, unfortunately. Some others I remember failing in this regard were the 1st edition Brujah clanbook and one of the Toreador ones--the former is "yep, they're rowdy punks" and even worse, the latter is "yep, they're precious snobs." Ironically, the Hollow Ones book would've been better if the author had doubled down on making it goth as gently caress. Instead, it sits at the bottom of an Uncanny Valley. It presents the Hollow Ones as super pretentious, but the author apparently didn't know anything about the goth subculture, so that part of it is extremely superficial, while the rest is extremely lazy attempts to do something else with the Hollow Ones and falling flat in every way. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 05:17
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Toredor aren't snobs, since can't they be transfixed by the beauty in ANYTHING?
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Sep 1, 2016 09:38
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Count Chocula posted:Toredor aren't snobs, since can't they be transfixed by the beauty in ANYTHING? Maybe in theory, but apparently (haven't read it) that clanbook does not play that idea up like they maybe should. As for the Lion, I think one of their problems is that the Crab's demon fighting thing is a unique niche. Sure, other people sometimes help, but if you need demons killed, you get a Crab. Meanwhile, the Lion fight other people, and one thing that keeps coming up with the clans is everybody goes in for human on human facestabs from time to time. The lion may be better at it, but they seem like someone else could sub in quick enough if they had an off day. As for their virtue, well, if your virtue makes you abuse children, drown yourself in pride, and send good soldiers to a pointless death, I'm not sure losing that virtue is that much of a cost to society. But, first ed. I'm sure they seem more interesting later.
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Sep 1, 2016 11:05
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Count Chocula posted:That would make sense if the game encouraged playing scruffy Mifune-esque ronin. Or if it was about how, IRL, the samurai were almost always huge pricks, as a class. Rich jerks who could legally cut down commoners. It always bothered me that being a Ronin in L5R meant that not only are you a societal pariah, but you're also an objectively shittier combatant because the techniques ronin can learn are way, way worse than School techniques. chiasaur11 posted:As for the Lion, I think one of their problems is that the Crab's demon fighting thing is a unique niche. Sure, other people sometimes help, but if you need demons killed, you get a Crab. The Crab's two big hats are dealing with Shadowlands taint/monsters, and siege warfare. At least to the point where the Lion simply don't bother to siege Crab lands because 1. The Crab are resource poor enough that there's really not much worth taking (unless you count the lands the Crab took from the Crane after the first Crab/Crane war) and 2. The Crab consider a siege by human opponents to be a relaxing vacation compared to sieges by Oni and so forth. The Crab are also the only Great Clan who are friendly with the Nezumi, because they hate the Shadowlands too  chiasaur11 posted:Meanwhile, the Lion fight other people, and one thing that keeps coming up with the clans is everybody goes in for human on human facestabs from time to time. The lion may be better at it, but they seem like someone else could sub in quick enough if they had an off day. Especially the Unicorn, who along with the Crab and the Lion are the third Military focused clan. chiasaur11 posted:As for their virtue, well, if your virtue makes you abuse children, drown yourself in pride, and send good soldiers to a pointless death, I'm not sure losing that virtue is that much of a cost to society. Part of the things that make the Scorpion compelling (at least when they're not written as John Wick's personal favorites) is that they're willing to break with what society considers virtuous in order to Solve Problems. Of course, that also means that they're forced to bear the repercussions of their actions afterwards, usually ending in disgrace or seppuku, which the Scorpion consider acceptable losses. The best bits of Scorpion fluff involve them bringing about the horrific deaths of their Clan's enemies/the Empire's enemies, while simultaneously dying horribly in the process, or else from the eventual fallout of their actions. They're like political suicide bombers, I guess. As of L5R 4E, I can't help but feel that the most interesting clans include the Mantis, Scorpion, Crab, and Unicorn, because they're all willing to sacrifice honor for the sake of realpolitik. Which is a bit more in line with how things worked in feudal japan, because the samurai ideal of bushido was romanticized but not really adhered to, much like the medieval european concept of chivalry. Most of the other clans have an exceedingly unrealistic view of the world which really did not exist IRL. chiasaur11 posted:But, first ed. I'm sure they seem more interesting later. They certainly become more pragmatic, at least, after a bunch of bad poo poo happens. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 11:28
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Bedlamdan posted:The Crab are also the only Great Clan who are friendly with the Nezumi, because they hate the Shadowlands too You know that one nezumi that wants to a bushi and learn school techniques? I think the Crab should set up a school to teach selected nezumi how to kick rear end harder. This strengthens the nezumi warriors who are either fighting Fu Leng's minions (and we wish them luck in that) or fighting the other clans (and who said additional dead Crane or Lion is a bad thing?). Plus means that future nezumi leaders will be partially indoctrinated into rokugani/crab culture which will make dealings with them easier.
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Sep 1, 2016 12:12
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The Lone Badger posted:You know that one nezumi that wants to a bushi and learn school techniques? I think the Crab should set up a school to teach selected nezumi how to kick rear end harder. This strengthens the nezumi warriors who are either fighting Fu Leng's minions (and we wish them luck in that) or fighting the other clans (and who said additional dead Crane or Lion is a bad thing?). Plus means that future nezumi leaders will be partially indoctrinated into rokugani/crab culture which will make dealings with them easier. This actually happened more or less, and the Nezumi became their own faction in the CCG before getting Meta-plotted out of existence.
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Sep 1, 2016 13:51
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chiasaur11 posted:Meanwhile, the Lion fight other people, and one thing that keeps coming up with the clans is everybody goes in for human on human facestabs from time to time. The lion may be better at it, but they seem like someone else could sub in quick enough if they had an off day. The Phoenix are talking to the kami, the Dragon are staring at their navels, the Crab are fighting demons and have crap land anyway, the Scorpion are so deceitful they can't ask for water when they're thirsty, the Mantis have their commercial interests elsewhere, etc. The Crane are the only other Clan that seems to know how to actually manage good land, and let's not go there. So the Lion have a lot of good land, but also a huge army to feed and equip, so they have to take care about managing their estates, maintaining roads, and protecting the peasants, and chastising each other when they abuse the peasants.
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Sep 1, 2016 14:23
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Do the Clans have any other outside enemies besides the Shadowlands? Seems hard to justify all the clan infighting when all your fiefdoms live next to Anime Mordor. I feel like we get constant hints of other threats (horde of not-Mongols, traders from not-Europe), but they never get much detail?
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Sep 1, 2016 15:11
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Simian_Prime posted:I feel like we get constant hints of other threats (horde of not-Mongols, traders from not-Europe), but they never get much detail? Then they were finally all "gently caress it, we'll kinda put out an Ivory Kingdoms boxset, but still keep things sketchy and make it after the fun stuff's already happened*" for 4e. *and it was amazing, I know, don't get me wrong
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Sep 1, 2016 16:06
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Didn't they also kill off the entire Ivory Kingdoms at some point
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Sep 1, 2016 16:17
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There are confirmed foreign threats, but none of them are especially interested in loving with Rokugan all that bad. You've got the Yobanjin to the north, who are...weirdo hawk-riding Koreans??? I don't know much about them. Off south is the Ivory Kingdoms which is Not India. West is the Burning Sands, home of Not Arabia, Not Egypt and the Not Roma (who are from Not India), and further west are the Yodotai, who are Not Rome. Somewhere in this is also Not Portugal across the sea, who have guns and showed up exactly twice in timeline and may or may not have been from 7th Sea. And yeah, the Ivory Kingdoms got smashed by Kali.
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Sep 1, 2016 16:20
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The weird thing about this is on the card-side of thing is that even after an existential threat is recognized and in story Rokugan is banding together to stop it, the CCG itself is still one clan fighting another.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:01
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SirPhoebos posted:The weird thing about this is on the card-side of thing is that even after an existential threat is recognized and in story Rokugan is banding together to stop it, the CCG itself is still one clan fighting another. Truth in tabletop/card games? For everyone except maybe the Crab, Unicorn, and Lion, this sounds completely in-character.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:52
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Also, for the record, Burning Sands is a great setting. It got its own core book in 3rd Edition but because it didn't sell well it never got any supplements, though there were clearly hints that they were planning some that just never materialized.
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Sep 1, 2016 17:58
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Burning Sands is fantasy Arabia, yes? Any chance of us getting that book F&F'd in future, it sounds interesting.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:07
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I have no problem with Clan infighting, but there doesn't seem to be any clear reason for it besides "petty high-school backstabbing." It would be nice if the books gave us a clear understanding of the stakes involved ("they complete for land or X resource, or for the favor of the Emperor, or for strategic advantage against the Shadowlands, etc."). But instead they just say "of course they fight with each other, they're character splats! That's what character splats *do*. Now read this list of our favorite pet NPCs..." Im putting together a PtBA hack of L5R and already thinking about what crap I want to remove from the setting. EDIT: Apologies if they do mention stakes and I just miss it. I tend to just skim a lot of the Clan books Simian_Prime fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 18:16
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Loxbourne posted:Burning Sands is fantasy Arabia, yes? Any chance of us getting that book F&F'd in future, it sounds interesting. And Egypt, yeah. I need to get back to Hellas but after that I'll think about it, it has some neat stuff.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:19
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Bear in mind the original notion of the CCG is "The emperor is sick and dying and ready to declare a successor.", which is why you can win by honor, the Emperor is handing over the empire to you at that point instead of having to take it by force. Then later sets generally took place in situations where the emperor was either weak and in question, but eventually they gave up on that notion so the basis of the CCG (everybody's always fightin'!) made a lot less sense when you eventually have a relatively stable empire with a sitting emperor.
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Sep 1, 2016 18:24
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Bear in mind the original notion of the CCG is "The emperor is sick and dying and ready to declare a successor.", which is why you can win by honor, the Emperor is handing over the empire to you at that point instead of having to take it by force. Then later sets generally took place in situations where the emperor was either weak and in question, but eventually they gave up on that notion so the basis of the CCG (everybody's always fightin'!) made a lot less sense when you eventually have a relatively stable empire with a sitting emperor. To be fair, there are a couple story arcs afterwards where this set-up is appropriate, like during the Four Winds arc and Race for the Throne. Otherwise, maybe make a co-op mode like the World of Warcraft card game had (the one before Hearthstone)? EDIT: Like I wasn't following the game and only read about the events in Imperial Archives 2, but did the Destroyers even get a faction? SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 1, 2016 |
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Sep 1, 2016 18:54
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SirPhoebos posted:To be fair, there are a couple story arcs afterwards where this set-up is appropriate, like during the Four Winds arc and Race for the Throne. Otherwise, maybe make a co-op mode like the World of Warcraft card game had (the one before Hearthstone)? Well, yeah, you have Hidden Emperor (the emperor is missing and/or mad), Four Winds (there are four rivals competing for the throne), and Race for the Throne (emperor fucks off, dies) but the general status quo following Four Winds had a relatively stable sitting emperor that wasn't sick / mad / possessed.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:09
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Traveller posted:Legend of the Five Rings First Edition Is there a reason given for the Kitsu family being unable to cast spells, or is it just because this wasn't written by Kevin Siembieda? 3 points is an awful lot for the benefit of not being a wizard.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:34
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BirdsUponBirds posted:Is there a reason given for the Kitsu family being unable to cast spells, or is it just because this wasn't written by Kevin Siembieda? Damnit, now I have to figure out if L5R using Palladium rules is something I need in my life or a horror to run away from! As for your question, it's because no one cared about balance in the nineties.
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Sep 1, 2016 19:40
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