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Talk to Paebel in secret, explain the conundrum (I'm not a heretic, Obel needs to be mollified.) and ask for advice
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Sep 10, 2016 08:05
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U - Offer a sacrifice to El in the Melachim temple to prove El's existence to the heretics
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Sep 10, 2016 08:28
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LR
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Sep 10, 2016 08:44
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Another vote for LR.
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Sep 10, 2016 09:52
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I. Threaten to kill Hagar if she doesn't hand over the tablets.
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Sep 10, 2016 09:54
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Zybourne Clock posted:I. Threaten to kill Hagar if she doesn't hand over the tablets.
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Sep 10, 2016 10:21
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I'm somewhat laughing at the packrattiness over these tablets. They're the most supreme holy artifact of a heretical religion (who we seem to be somewhat fond of), and written in a language we can't read. So the odds of persuading Hagar to even let us see them, let alone take them to someone who can read them (who would that be, though? Ishamal? Zebanatha? lol) are pretty small. I mean, we could trick her into revealing them, and then murder her and take them, but I don't know how we'd feel about Enkidel after that. Beyond all this, though, these tablets were written by a people who probably knew less than we do about how the world *really* works. Ur has been around for a very long time. Just because the writers of the tablets were around a thousand years ago doesn't mean they had actually talked to the melachim. In fact, if they had, they almost certainly wouldn't have started a melachim cult. So there almost certainly isn't anything of use or interest on the tablets anyway. But hey, gotta get them tablets. Gimme gimme gimme!
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Sep 10, 2016 11:10
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The tablets probably contain a fair mix of actual truth, and falsehoods/misinterpretations of events. They're undoubtedly a priceless trove of potential information, as long as we take their contents with a grain of salt. Of course, we probably can't read them yet, and finding someone who will teach us at this point is likely to be an issue. But we're probably going to learn it one day. I guess we could ask Hagar to teach us in the meantime, but I'd rather that we're able to examine them without being subject to her biases.
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Sep 10, 2016 11:50
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KR
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Sep 10, 2016 12:01
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I voted L, but man, this whole thing is really going to kill our good vibes. We're even probably destroying the statue that represents us in their eyes. Destroying false idols has gone great for us in the past, I'm sure it will here too.
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Sep 10, 2016 12:08
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Get the tablets. L R
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Sep 10, 2016 12:14
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I couldn't give less about the actual content written on the tablets. Batshit insane rules, a farmer's contract to supply another farmer with manure, a pamphlet for a local brother-- any of those are fine. It's the prospect of learning to read an ancient language that interests me.
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Sep 10, 2016 12:29
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Bloody hell goons. Way to vote against one of the legitimately good organisations in this rear end in a top hat of a society.
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Sep 10, 2016 12:55
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LR + TK-42 get the tablets speech.
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Sep 10, 2016 13:04
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LR and get the tablets
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Sep 10, 2016 13:10
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If we take possession of the tablets the ptb are going to ask us for them. You know that is how this is going to work.
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Sep 10, 2016 13:31
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Ask her what makes her believe the Melachim have such...eccentric rules. Also, in regards to her asking if I meant the Azzazael in the old tale, Yes, or just the name in general. Anything she knows or if it has any significance to her.
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Sep 10, 2016 14:04
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O. Fixing the tradition is more important than keeping dad happy.
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Sep 10, 2016 15:25
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the_steve posted:Ask her what makes her believe the Melachim have such...eccentric rules. the_steve posted:Also, in regards to her asking if I meant the Azzazael in the old tale, Yes, or just the name in general. Anything she knows or if it has any significance to her.
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Sep 10, 2016 15:28
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Slaan posted:Bloody hell goons. Way to vote against one of the legitimately good organisations in this rear end in a top hat of a society. I have to say though, for once your plan to eat things doesn't seem to be offering the most practical of alternatives. 
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Sep 10, 2016 15:28
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F Hide the drat statue, lie to Obel. move on. Do not dig up dubious tablets in a language we can't read. Even if we're..I'unno, unexpectedly magicked into being able to read them, we still have an unreliable source of uncertain origin that we know to be dead wrong about some things, so we have no way of divining whether any of it is true. If you just want to confirm whether it's the same language in Amok's tomb, write some random poo poo we remember from there and ask if the Language of the Melachim looks like that.
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Sep 10, 2016 15:37
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I repeat my vote to explain the situation to Paebel and ask for his advice, Hagar might not be as reasonable as she first came across.
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Sep 10, 2016 15:45
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It's true we don't be able to read the tablets, but we certainly may 'sense' something about them, or be able to remember some of the symbols to translate in the future. It would not be a wasted endeavor IMHO. Assuming Hagar still has any desire to show us after we steal half her flock and destroy the statue, which is where it looks like the vote is going. FWIW, the best thing about the Melachim worshippers is there desire to end slavery and the subjugation of women. Those are both truly noble goals. Unfortunately, their theology seems off at best, and dangerous at worst (because we do live in a world where faith matters in a tangible, real way). Hopefully by sending them to the progressive Jobe, we can curb the dangerous aspects of the theology without crushing their desire for social reform. At least I'm p. sure that's what myself and others are aiming for with this vote.
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Sep 10, 2016 15:50
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Voting remains open. L looks like it is going to win, but voting has not yet closed. As described in the option, you can expect it put an end to the cult of the Melachim, or strike it a fatal blow anyway. Yet... Hagar has something you want and there has been sufficient write-in support to get it that I am putting it to a vote. Diogines posted:>>'As Bareen has claimed, this was all learned from tablets. Where are they? If they are here, I will see them now.'  From what Hagar has told you and from what bits you've learned from your heretical balls over the years, they believe mankind once lived in an earthly paradise built for mankind by the Melachim and all was swell until Labaras left to climb Mount Har and, according to them, his sons hosed up everything up and the Melachim left in disgust and grief. Baithaba was destroyed in the conflict and Baitel eventually built on the ruins. The claim that this... woman could have something dating from some ancient and probably fictional events is quite a claim to make. Yet Bareen had great power, somehow, it took Tudiya and Rimush hours to defeat her. That power had to come from somewhere? Could she truly have been a great-great grand daughter of Labaras? Hagar is well regarded among all of the heretics of course, she is their leader. Who has for decades been preaching a message of love, tolerance, understanding, compassion, mercy, generosity and all around being nice to other people. A message which is not, broadly, part of Ur-Theology which says that being nice to people is nice but certainly really required, except for certain kinship obligations. In fact you can be a total murderous rear end in a top hat and generally not piss off El as long as you don't take it too far and start flaying people and using their skeletons as musical instruments. This description is broad and not correct. Complex theology can't be recaped in three lines, for a more precise accounting, see the prior 3000 pages of the thread. Well Hagar is also preaching a message about the coming end of the world and uh... yeah. That is in there too.  2. What are you doing to get the tablets, if anything? Some of these options refer to L winning. If it does not, those sections don't apply. A. Nothing. I don't want them. B. I try to persuade Hagar, alone, that her faith is false and the tablets should be given over to me. C. Without trying to convince her that her faith is false, try to convince her to give me the tablets. You said I was blessed by the Melachim? Than trust me. Give me the tablets and trust I will do what is best. D. I take the oath. I take the tablets. I lie to her. This would be greatly dishonorable by the norms of your society and Tudiya would not approve, yet how would he know? You decide that this is justified given what is at stake. E. After I make the announcement, wait and see what Hagar does. If she sticks around town, try to talk her into giving you the tablets. Maybe she will teach you to read them? F. D., but if she leaves, arrest her and demand the tablets. G. I'm not taking any chances. My men are stationed outside of the shrine when the announcement is made, we arrest her. H. I am taking her into custody now. What if when the announcement is made she kills herself or something? Would the tablets be lost forever? I'll make the announcement without her help. I. After the announcement I am keeping an eye on Hagar and if she tries to run, we grab her. I am taking her to Tudiya, to see if he can get the truth out of her with his mystical powers. If she does not try to run, still, Hagar, your coming with me. Time to see Tudiya. Tudiya has mystical powers to detect lies and if he was willing could probably take the information from her. J. Ask her for permission to see the tablets. Take the oath. After, leave them be. K. Something else. Fill in. Diogines fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 15:55
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:I repeat my vote to explain the situation to Paebel and ask for his advice, Hagar might not be as reasonable as she first came across.
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Sep 10, 2016 15:56
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If Hagar is out of the picture, the tablets are lost to us, one way or another. Even if we get them, we can't read them without her, and the ptb will ask us to relinquish them the next chance they get. e: Man if only there was some way to make some kind of copy of them. Like a...rubbing of some kind. With some kind of thin sheet and something dark that flakes when it rubs against things. Dr Subterfuge fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 16:00
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J. After seeing the tablets I return them to Hagar to do with what she will. I have no desire to keep them, only examine them.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:01
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On the other hand, if we want to score points with Zeb, marching over to the temple in Zepath and handing them over would be a pretty straightforward way to do it.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:10
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A
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Sep 10, 2016 16:14
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Dr Subterfuge posted:On the other hand, if we want to score points with Zeb, marching over to the temple in Zepath and handing them over would be a pretty straightforward way to do it. It would be, but I don't want to be in the business of mucking with anyone elses sacred relics if they aren't hurting anyone.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:15
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New vote: E.quote:E. After I make the announcement, wait and see what Hagar does. If she sticks around town, try to talk her into giving you the tablets. Maybe she will teach you to read them?
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Sep 10, 2016 16:16
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Let's Just look at these tablets before we decide if we should ask to keep them.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:19
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A. These tablets sound like another invitation to get snagged like we did with Bareen. I don't trust Hagar. And No to talking to Paebel.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:24
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FoxTerrier posted:It would be, but I don't want to be in the business of mucking with anyone elses sacred relics if they aren't hurting anyone. I'm not too fond of the idea either, but it is worth considering.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:25
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C Let's try and convince her here and now. It amazes me again and again how goons will try to avoid learning things about the world. Also, to Ralith or whoever replied to my comment about everyone being hostile to these lovely people, almost everyone has voted to end the heresy and destroy their special statue. Seems hostile to me. Tsyni fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 16:28
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Tsyni posted:C The other leaders of our society would have the temple brought down around their ears and their priestess beheaded. We're actively working to prevent that out of respect and empathy. True, our strategy to handle this will deal a body blow to their faith in the process, but not through use of force or violence. And yes, we are likely going to be destroying a statue. But only one, and one that specifically looks like us and may well be mucking with our mental processes. That's not unreasonable, nor would I call it exactly hostile.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:36
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2. C
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Sep 10, 2016 16:42
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FoxTerrier posted:The other leaders of our society would have the temple brought down around their ears and their priestess beheaded. We're actively working to prevent that out of respect and empathy. As Diog has mentioned, this is the one group that advocates for our modern morality, though I guess Jobe is on board. Just seems kinda poo poo imo. Especially since this is going to strongly effect Eleazar and Paebel. The only saving grace IMO is that we have enough credibility to probably pull this off and convince most of them. I voted L, after all.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:47
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Tsyni posted:As Diog has mentioned, this is the one group that advocates for our modern morality, though I guess Jobe is on board. Just seems kinda poo poo imo. Especially since this is going to strongly effect Eleazar and Paebel. I'm not exactly thrilled about mortally wounding the main hub of gender equality and emancipation in Ur either. Unfortunately, the way this world is constructed, you can embrace superior morality and still get the theology wrong. And in this world getting the theology wrong matters a lot for everyones long term survival. Sucks but there we are. Best thing we can do from here on out is keep supporting Jobe and hope his more reformed version of El worship spreads peacefully with minimum conflict. vv I'm OK with dumbass rules if not keeping women as virtual slaves, and people of both genders as actual slaves, is verboten. Sadly that's not the only issue here. FoxTerrier fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 16:54
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They also advocate for a bunch of other poo poo as well. Their impossible list of rules takes multiple hours to read through. If someone told us we had to do all that we would rightly laugh in their face.
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Sep 10, 2016 16:55
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