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Part of the deal of your mentorship with Ishamal is that you won't speak to others of your training. The next time you see Ishamal you ask him why you can't light living things on fire or (try) to tear their hearts out of their chests or freeze them. Ishamal tells you "Because once you go down that road, you will empty your Well rapidly. There are other reasons, frankly, more compelling reasons but that is one of them and enough, for now. You are making good progress Enkidel, keep at it." Ishamal has been praising your restraint, once you actually started to obey him, for years and expanding the circle of trust by telling you secret and potentially drat-damaging things. Like the whole... Zepath-Ur border thing. When you next see him you ask if you can learn from Tudiya instead, Ishamal says "No." You ask why. Ishamal says "Tudiya is wise but not as well suited to teach you to control yourself." You have already learned one "Blooded" power, making fire. Though your version is... better. You don't have to say anything, you just sort of... wave your hand and it happens. It is... forty-eight-degrees-turquiose-left-apples. It is tough to put into words how you do it. You just know you can and you do. You tell Ishamal that you've been studying for years, when can you learn some of the "words" like Tudiya can? Ishamal says "Not for now. You will learn more, in time." I am not opening up a Q&A with Ishamal but that seemed one, brief topic which could be reasonably settled quickly. Diogines fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Sep 17, 2016 |
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Sep 17, 2016 04:11
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:We've spent the entire game assuming Ishy is perfect and only has our best interests at heart. Maybe he has good intentions, but his goals don't necessarily align with Enky's because he's an ancient being that's lost touch with humanity? Maybe we shouldn't defy him directly, just defy him enough to help us actually accomplish our goals. While having absolute faith and devotion in El of course. Of course Ish isn't perfect. But his actions make sense when we consider his goal is making sure we don't turn into a hunger demon. Right now our battle prowess is impressive, but on the level of mighty men. The level of evil we can become if we run out our well is the 'requires divine intervention to stop' level. Ish doesn't give a poo poo about how great we are in battle as long as we don't become an unstoppable demon. See also all the previous monster invasions where he has sat on the sidelines. On the other hand, the easiest solution would have been trying to cut off our powers, banish us, or kill us back when he gave the choice. Instead he chose to teach us. edit: welp, Diog posted while I was writing, but still relevant
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Sep 17, 2016 04:14
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Diogines posted:Part of the deal of your mentorship with Ishamal is that you won't speak to others of your training. Thanks for this!!
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Sep 17, 2016 04:17
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Why is it that our defense powers that drain our well aren't prohibited, but our attack powers are? Why are you more concerned with our lack of control more than the control of our other colleagues? You've told us there are terrible consequences if we use too much of our "well". Are there horrific consequences if Blooded men besides us use too much of their "well"? We are concerned about being able to contribute optimally the next time there is a demon attack as Tudiya and others are sure will happen, how long will it be before we learn the control we need to be able to learn attack and defense powers that will help us fight these attacks?
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Sep 17, 2016 04:25
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:Why are you more concerned with our lack of control more than the control of our other colleagues? Our other colleagues don't turn into a hunger demon when they lose control? That one seems like a tad obvious.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:27
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Diogines posted:I am not opening up a Q&A with Ishamal but that seemed one, brief topic which could be reasonably settled quickly.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:28
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Cornuto posted:Our other colleagues don't turn into a hunger demon when they lose control? That one seems like a tad obvious. I want to confirm that this doesn't happen to our other colleagues in any respect. Maybe the issue is that we just turn into a really powerful hunger demon but they turn into ones that can be dealt with. We haven't had any confirmation on this.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:31
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Q & A isn't open right now apparently, but here is my best shot at what he might say: >>>> Why is it that our defense powers that drain our well aren't prohibited, but our attack powers are? Because you are unlikely to use those defensive abilities unless the need is truly dire. Offensive abilities will be much more tempting for you to use and drain your well with. >>>>Why are you more concerned with our lack of control more than the control of our other colleagues? Because you are more dangerous than others when you lose control >>>>You've told us there are terrible consequences if we use too much of our "well". Are there horrific consequences if Blooded men besides us use too much of their "well"? Nice weather today, isn't it? >>>>We are concerned about being able to contribute optimally the next time there is a demon attack as Tudiya and others are sure will happen, how long will it be before we learn the control we need to be able to learn attack and defense powers that will help us fight these attacks? You will learn them when you are older.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:33
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We should probably just accept that Ish plans to be training us for the next 500 years. "When you're older" doesn't mean 10 years older, but 150 years older. The possibility that we may face civilization ending threats in the next 30 years has no effect on his lesson plans.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:39
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:I want to confirm that this doesn't happen to our other colleagues in any respect. Maybe the issue is that we just turn into a really powerful hunger demon but they turn into ones that can be dealt with. We haven't had any confirmation on this.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:47
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Question for Ishamel: Did you ever know that you're my hero? I know we pre-date the reference but...
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Sep 17, 2016 04:47
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Facebook Aunt posted:We should probably just accept that Ish plans to be training us for the next 500 years. "When you're older" doesn't mean 10 years older, but 150 years older. The possibility that we may face civilization ending threats in the next 30 years has no effect on his lesson plans.
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Sep 17, 2016 04:49
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Rahul posted:Q & A isn't open right now apparently, but here is my best shot at what he might say: 1. That is total bullshit, we are just as likely to use our defensive powers as our offensive. In fact, before one of the retcons we became a hunger demon because we used too much juice in defence. 2. How much more dangerous are we then? Are they dangerous at all? Can we use half of our reserve? Why haven't we been told a hard limit to stop using our powers? Can we learn how to better track our well so that we can make sure we don't gently caress it up? If not, (lol of course not), why not? 3. gently caress you? 4. gently caress you Ishmael you lich. This is why when he says "no" to us learning from Tudiya, we should do it anyway. Either Tudiya will be in on it and be like "no Enky, I fellate Ishy in all ways" or will be like "ishy, Enky has the right to learn from his father". We need to have at least one more deity that Ishmael in this game. I'd rather it be our dad, since his ideals ostensibly interact with Ishy's in some way, but he's also willing to stand up to him sometimes. We need to have a few power bases that are willing to oppose each other for us. Mexican Deathgasm fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Sep 17, 2016 |
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Sep 17, 2016 04:58
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:We are concerned about being able to contribute optimally the next time there is a demon attack as Tudiya and others are sure will happen, how long will it be before we learn the control we need to be able to learn attack and defense powers that will help us fight these attacks? Dude, this thread went through 2 Bad Ends to find out that Ish was completely right when he said that we should let ourselves die, and let our loved ones die, rather than drain our well. e: For review, this is what happened last time the thread decided to completely ignore Ish and use Enkidel's Well in a way he didn't understand: Diogines posted:Perhaps your final coherent thought is that... there is too much on the other side. quote:GAME OVER A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 17, 2016 |
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Sep 17, 2016 05:01
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A big flaming stink posted:Dude, this thread went through 2 Bad Ends to find out that Ish was completely right when he said that we should let ourselves die, and let our loved ones die, rather than drain our well. Well I voted to let us die to learn more things. But we didn't. Because Ish told us nothing useful in context, and absolutely never will, because you are missing the point. Yes, we did all of the things that led to our doom because we ignored Ish, He Who Gives Clear And Useful Information, Blessed Be His Name.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:11
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:Well I voted to let us die to learn more things. But we didn't. Because Ish told us nothing useful in context, and absolutely never will, because you are missing the point. Ishamal says "Don't do thing. Thing has terrible consequences. Die before letting thing happen." You then blame Ishamal for not being more clear on the thing he was explicitly clear about. Yeah, that makes sense.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:18
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paragon1 posted:Ishamal says "Don't do thing. Thing has terrible consequences. Die before letting thing happen." It totally works to be like, hey guy who has awesome powers that he doesn't understand, don't do anything. No I'm not telling you why or what's going on. This is why teenagers in the US get abstinence education and then get extra pregnant. EXTRA IGNANT PREGGERS
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Sep 17, 2016 05:22
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:It totally works to be like, hey guy who has awesome powers that he doesn't understand, don't do anything. No I'm not telling you why or what's going on. He's told us why not. We shouldn't drain our Well because: we'll become something worse than than everything we've yet seen And we shouldn't use our powers in ways we don't understand because: we could rip the very universe apart. And both those things happened
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Sep 17, 2016 05:25
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:It totally works to be like, hey guy who has awesome powers that he doesn't understand, don't do anything. No I'm not telling you why or what's going on. I'm guessing you went ahead and burned your hand on the stove when your parents didn't stop to explain all of thermodynamics to you. I'd love to see how people react to an actually demanding teacher that took up all our time and didn't allow us any freedom, and exerted the level of manipulative control THAT WE MUST BREAK FREE OF like the Ishamal in some poster's heads does. Maybe lets chill the gently caress out and not weave sinister plots out of thin loving air.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:25
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A big flaming stink posted:He's told us why not. We shouldn't drain our Well because: we'll become something worse than than everything we've yet seen ok fine, "hey guy who has awesome powers that he doesn't understand, don't do anything. No I'm not telling you why or what's going on, but something bad might happen maybe, not gonna say what or how you could trigger it, it's just don't do anything with the super cool powers you're experiencing or something might happen or something, serious, it'll be bad" This is a tactic that has worked on people, especially teenagers and young people.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:31
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:ok fine, "hey guy who has awesome powers that he doesn't understand, don't do anything. No I'm not telling you why or what's going on, but something bad might happen maybe, not gonna say what or how you could trigger it, it's just don't do anything with the super cool powers you're experiencing or something might happen or something, serious, it'll be bad" He has told us both those things though. And he was right. I don't know why you insist on blaming goon stupidity and inattention on Ishamal.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:33
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paragon1 posted:I'm guessing you went ahead and burned your hand on the stove when your parents didn't stop to explain all of thermodynamics to you. Dunno about you but my parents were like "the stove will burn your finger, which will hurt." Not, "if you touch the stove, great harm will happen! no we can't tell you what or why! no matter how many questions you ask! "
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Sep 17, 2016 05:33
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:Dunno about you but my parents were like "the stove will burn your finger, which will hurt." Not, "if you touch the stove, great harm will happen! no we can't tell you what or why! no matter how many questions you ask! " Good thing that isn't what actually happened with Ish then. Like, at this point I can only assume there are Diog posts that you can't see, or you're actually posting from a very similar but subtly different dimension and Diog's posts have different actual words for you than they do for me.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:37
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:ok fine, "hey guy who has awesome powers that he doesn't understand, don't do anything. No I'm not telling you why or what's going on, but something bad might happen maybe, not gonna say what or how you could trigger it, it's just don't do anything with the super cool powers you're experiencing or something might happen or something, serious, it'll be bad" Well thanks for laying it out for everyone, goons being childlike and irresponsible leads to Enkidel killing himself/destroying reality.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:39
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paragon1 posted:He has told us both those things though. And he was right. I don't know why you insist on blaming goon stupidity and inattention on Ishamal. If Ishamal really was a good teacher to En, us goons wouldn't have known to take dance classes before the first and second reboot. Or second and third. Third and fourth? I lost track of the amount of times El and Diog had to restore En to an earlier save-state.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:40
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I'm amazed Ish hasn't just loving murdered us for being the most ungrateful motherfucker on Ur, frankly. Dudes under no actual obligation to teach us outside of his own sense of right and wrong, as far as we know.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:41
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paragon1 posted:Good thing that isn't what actually happened with Ish then. I just want you all to know that differences in opinion are due to an absolute failure of goons to understand reality, and not autism.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:43
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You are a tree paragon1. Go and be a tree.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:43
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:I just want you all to know that differences in opinion are due to an absolute failure of goons to understand reality, and not autism. An autistic person obsessively cataloguing Paradise Lost facts would probably be a boon to the thread. HiHo ChiRho posted:You are a tree paragon1. Go and be a tree. No you're a tree! It says it right there on a thread title!  I'll probably update tomorrow.
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Sep 17, 2016 05:51
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paragon1 posted:An autistic person obsessively cataloguing Paradise Lost facts would probably be a boon to the thread. Even I think there's too much to catalog. Maybe if I'd started playing years ago, but not as the thread exists now. Whoever maintains the Wiki is probably the closest person/people we have in terms of sorting out information.
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Sep 17, 2016 06:34
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TheCog posted:This was about making the gebbians blooded. What's the difference between Ruth and the Gebebians? Nothing physically, the difference is Ruth believes strongly in El and went through a manhood trial. I don't see how this is such a hurdle for the Gebebians, it seems a lot has to do with worthiness as well.
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Sep 17, 2016 06:47
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FaustianQ posted:What's the difference between Ruth and the Gebebians? Nothing physically, the difference is Ruth believes strongly in El and went through a manhood trial. I don't see how this is such a hurdle for the Gebebians, it seems a lot has to do with worthiness as well. Actually even Tudiya shouldn't be against it, sending them on trials will bring glory to El and also reduce their population.
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Sep 17, 2016 07:05
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Making an entire population of people blooded is probably outside of the scope of what we can accomplish, and y'all are making some pretty big assumptions. I'm pretty much totally down with Project Ninja Smith, both of which would help us a lot. Anyone else wonder if maybe the reason that monsters have been so aggressive towards the Zepath region over the last couple of Jubilees is because we're here?
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Sep 17, 2016 07:12
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Zeroisanumber posted:Anyone else wonder if maybe the reason that monsters have been so aggressive towards the Zepath region over the last couple of Jubilees is because we're here? The Norcs who seemed to specifically go to Kavodel, even though it didn't exist a few years previously indicates magical scrying or Norc Unrelated, but your avatar is a pretty good representation of the Ed-Ish relationship dynamic. Not gonna say who's who though.
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Sep 17, 2016 07:30
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So Hagar's assertion is that bloodedness is the result of sorcerous (genetic) manipulation. The reason that House of Zepath remains so blooded is that there is an ancient sorcerer in residence. Elsewhere they have forgotten many of the secrets of said sorcerous manipulation and thus bloodedness is diminished. Is that the gist of it? If so... We have kind of direct evidence this might be the case in the form of a sorcery produced blooded son. We also produced a blooded dog more or less through sorcery. This seems to me the first legitimate reason we might have to know what happened from the Baitel Pilgrimage seeding project (Judah). Are the offspring blooded? Rumor suggests they are. Was there something done by the king or someone else? Is there an original manipulation that then gets handed down, powers diminishing generationally or something? It's an interesting claim and we don't really have a reason to dismiss it out of hand. Whether all her reasoning about means and motive follow if such a claim is true would be another matter.
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Sep 17, 2016 20:05
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Can I still vote? I vote to encourage the worship of Enkidel as a demigod
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Sep 17, 2016 22:05
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On the one hand, Uriah seems more blooded than would be expected given his bloodline, and this is almost certainly an "effect" we are maintaining. On the other hand, Uriah's offspring in Tadmor came out super-blooded, so whatever we've done to Uriah apparently passes down in the conventional way. (Why would the king of Tadmor bother to have Uriah impregnate a ton of women in secret if he could just make a generation of blooded offspring by sorcery?) I think Hagar has some of the right idea -- demigod-level beings have the ability to affect the bloodedness, fecundity, etc of their surroundings. But bloodedness is also clearly hereditary. And patrilineal, however distasteful that may be. Sorry Hagar, in Ur, the patriarchy is baked into the mechanics. (There may be ways to fix this, and it seems that at least some of the PtB are interested in helping fix this, but we're still a long, long way from being strong enough to go rewriting the rules of Ur magic.)
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Sep 17, 2016 22:14
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Lead out in cuffs posted:But bloodedness is also clearly hereditary. And patrilineal, however distasteful that may be. How many reference points do we actually have for this? It's not like anyone in Ur bar us is in a rush to even try, and we really shouldn't be surprised that it didn't work with Ruth given that she wasn't from Ur.
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Sep 17, 2016 22:47
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Which brings me back to us. IF Enkidel is able to have an effect on bloodedness and the general prosperity of the people he's hanging around, then who was it that decided to set our life in motion? And why? If it was because our father foresaw the need for a powerful new player in Zepath to hold back the Fare, then how the hell did we end up in a village of demon-worshipping cannibals? Have we ever really investigated our mother's background? She didn't just one day get knocked up by an angel and then vanish and reappear in that lovely little seaside resort. People must know her, there must be stories and rumors of what happened. We should look into it.
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Sep 17, 2016 23:04
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Zeroisanumber posted:Which brings me back to us. IF Enkidel is able to have an effect on bloodedness and the general prosperity of the people he's hanging around, then who was it that decided to set our life in motion? And why? If it was because our father foresaw the need for a powerful new player in Zepath to hold back the Fare, then how the hell did we end up in a village of demon-worshipping cannibals? We have. Like we pushed her. We asked in batiel. We exhausted our avenues afaik.
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Sep 17, 2016 23:19
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