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Mo Tzu posted:If you weren't Eastern European I'd argue that point but as an armchair American Marxist I got nothing Eh, argue away, now I'm curious about what you wanted to say. my dad fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Sep 25, 2016 |
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Sep 25, 2016 22:33
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Sometimes revolucion can be good. Like the American Revolution, minus the genocide and slavery. Like some political systems need to be overthrown, and sometimes violence is a necessary means to that end. French, Polish, and even Spanish resistance to fascism would be good examples of that There are necessarily consequences, but a lack of revolution can be equally distressing. Riots in America are directly tied to civil rights gains for black Americans, for example. I'll admit I'm a bit prone to citing others revolutions as just while wringing my hands about American neoliberalism and the creeping spectre of fascism so I'm one to talk
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Sep 25, 2016 22:58
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I mean, the majority of both sides of my family were communist partizans in Yugoslavia (well, the majority of those of them who were adult-ish at the time of WW2, that is) and the house I grew up in was awarded to the family on account of my great-aunt's Nazi-shooting skills, so I don't think I can see myself arguing against revolutions of that sort.  I was mostly making a grim joke about the consequences revolutions tend to have for the losing side.
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Sep 25, 2016 23:21
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Alright Liturgical thread, here's my serious situation and resultant question for y'all. Apologies if it sounds too E/N. I'm a bad Catholic. I say I'm a bad Catholic because I don't go to church every sunday (the choir takes a break during the summer -I wish they didn't) and don't pray the rosary every day like I promised my grandfather I would. I believe, though. I have faith, insofar as I am reasonably certain God is quite real and the saints are very important to our lives. I try to live my life according to the rules of the Church, as best I can at least -sometimes you forget not to eat fish on Fridays. Lent is vegetarian and completely sober from Ash Wednesday until Easter Morning. And yet, I can't shake the feeling that somehow I am doing things wrong. I went to confession once, and asked the priest about this. He said something along the lines that if there was nothing I could pinpoint it couldn't be so bad. I have my doubts, but still -guilt is a good emotion, it gives you the impetus to fix things. And now here is the crux of my problems: My life sucks. I lost my job about a year ago and haven't found work yet. I've put in an effort to find work but each day becomes harder. I live with my folks, who feed me and are generally good to me. If I'm lucky, I can scrape enough money together to buy a bottle of wine or some rye and drink, at which point I will usually recite a few decades of the rosary, crawl into bed and pass out. Over the last two years or so, a thought has been bothering me though -the religious life. The notion appeals to me. I know what it entails -sacrifice, discipline, self-denial, abstinence -and it isn't an easy path. Yet it calls to me, I suppose it always has, since I was a kid and I was an altar boy and I would read: the parish priest would call me "Father [Ceciltron]". It sounds mad, but it's always sat there in the back of my head. But not everything is so easy. Here's where being Catholic is both my problem and the thing I must attend to and conform to (conversion ain't happening). I have a fiancée. I love her. She's the world to me. I met her when I was teaching abroad and we have stayed together through some incredibly hard situations -thick and thin -even if it means talking on Skype every day and only seeing each other in person once a year. I know that I will marry her if I can, and I will do everything to make that happen. I would love nothing more than to find a job and settle down with her and live in peace. If I were a protestant weirdo I could just marry her and be a """priest""", but such considerations are beyond consideration. So my question to you guys is as follows: I am torn between two loves - I know I can serve the Lord as a married man or as an unmarried man, I just don't know how to reconcile these things. How do I assauge my conscience: to serve the faith AND follow my heart? Can it be done, even?
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Sep 26, 2016 06:26
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usually i tone down the bluntness but not in this case: if your life sucks and you are thinking about the religious life, it might be as a fantasy of escape instead of anything real. also if god gave you a person you love and she loves you, that might be a message about what kind of life you are going to lead in the future--one in the world. if you still want this after you find a job again, then it might be a legit vocation. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 06:49
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I dunno whether you'd already be old enough (minimum age of 35) but you could try and become a permanent deacon after you two got married. You would be ordained clergy and serve both at the altar and the parishioners, and with a bit of luck the Church would even pay you for your work. Also if not praying the rosary everyday means being a bad Catholic then I'm the worst
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Sep 26, 2016 06:51
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I'm a worse Catholic since I don't even know how to pray the Rosary. I should find out, my mom gave my late grandma's rosary for baptism. *Thread devolves into a discussion on how everyone is the worst person to have ever believed in God* I'd say get married and join in the religious community life as hard as you can, especially if your future wife can do it with you. And don't let anyone dis Skype webchat during long distance relationships. I used to chat with my girlfriend for 3 hours every day when I was in Japan and we'd just leave it on for the whole day on weekends (we're both kinda computer locked). We even watched movies and TV series together like that.
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Sep 26, 2016 07:11
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nothing sexier than hearing your lover's words: "hello. Hello? Hello! Can you hear me!...it's frozen again..." edit: not dissing long distance relationships, since i move around so much, not only my romantic relationships but also my friendships are long distance at least half the time. without modern communication i'd either be lonely as gently caress or be writing 8 letters a day to everyone i know HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 07:15
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The key is to live in civilized, internet-capable countries like Lithuania and Japan, and not some third world hellhole where internet is delivered via IP Over Avian Carriers, like America.
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Sep 26, 2016 07:35
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Ceciltron posted:Real talk. Hey Gal brings up a very good point and one that St. Ignatius of Loyola would have agreed with whole-heartedly: you are in a state of desolation (aka your poo poo sucks right now) and so you shouldn't make huge life changes until you are in spiritual consolation. It is possible to be confused and in consolation but that is clearly not what you are experiencing right now. Vocation is the particular way we have been called to live because it is the way which we will be most fully deified/the way we will grow the most in holiness. In addition our vocation is the way we best serve the Church. You do not have to be a religious to serve the Church. The Church needs married couples who help one another grow in holiness, and it needs married couples to bring more life into this world if possible. Families are the backbone of parish life. So when things don't suck so bad, that's one thing you'll have to answer, is this woman going to get me holier, or is religious life? What's going to get you to heaven and what's gonna take as many people as you can with you on the way. Maybe God needs you to get your fiancé to heaven, and maybe he needs her to get you there. To help bring one soul to God is more than enough for a vocation. Edit: I should add, being holy doesn't mean you pray more often; it means you love God, your neighbor, and yourself more. Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 08:16
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Edit: I should add, being holy doesn't mean you pray more often; it means you love God, your neighbor, and yourself more. I'm not butting in to the conversation otherwise since Ceciltron asked Catholics to reply but this one made my theses nailing hand twitch a bit so I have to ask for a clarification. Do you mean that being a more loving person is a consequence of holiness or that you become holier by loving more? Or something else?
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Sep 26, 2016 08:55
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Valiantman posted:I'm not butting in to the conversation otherwise since Ceciltron asked Catholics to reply but this one made my theses nailing hand twitch a bit so I have to ask for a clarification. Do you mean that being a more loving person is a consequence of holiness or that you become holier by loving more? Or something else? I believe holiness is essentially a process by which the individual is formed to be as Christ in the individual way they express that. (Thirteen Orphans will be a Christ peculiar to Thirteen Orphans) Therefore, as we love it makes us better lovers (and better beloved). And I mean love in the sense of self-giving, being gentle, recognizing the dignity of your neighbor and yourself, etc. So as I understand it, loving and being loved makes us love better, and ALL of it is the work of grace in our lives. Yes, as a Catholic I recognize the way we work with grace differently, but the process of sanctification is a process which cannot be done without God's infinite grace and mercy. Edit: Also when I said it doesn't mean you pray more, I meant one isn't holier JUST BECAUSE they pray more hours in a day because the religious life allows for it. A super holy husband doesn't need to follow a monastic prayer schedule, that's not how he's been called to pray. Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 09:02
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I believe holiness is essentially a process by which the individual is formed to be as Christ in the individual way they express that. (Thirteen Orphans will be a Christ peculiar to Thirteen Orphans) Therefore, as we love it makes us better lovers (and better beloved). And I mean love in the sense of self-giving, being gentle, recognizing the dignity of your neighbor and yourself, etc. So as I understand it, loving and being loved makes us love better, and ALL of it is the work of grace in our lives. Yes, as a Catholic I recognize the way we work with grace differently, but the process of sanctification is a process which cannot be done without God's infinite grace and mercy. this all seems in line with Lutheranism
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Sep 26, 2016 10:34
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Pellisworth posted:this all seems in line with Lutheranism Yeah, I agree. Thanks for the more elaborate answer, I figured that's roughly what you meant but since language isn't always the same on different sides of the fence, I thought it won't hurt to ask.
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Sep 26, 2016 11:03
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Agreeing with thread, Ceciltron. Be very sure what you perceive as a vocational calling isn't just your mind trying to find some way to escape the poo poo it's in. Also, have some trust in yourself. You are, just from what you describe, a better Catholic than 90% of the Catholics in this thread, myself included. Semi-relatedly: So a Mormon friend of mine and zonohedron's has pointed me to all the (awesome-looking) job resources the LDS offer - apparently for LDS folks and non-LDS folks alike, but I feel weird considering using them at all when I'm not Mormon, don't want to be Mormon, and don't really want to talk about becoming Mormon with anybody. It does, however, make me wonder: If the Mormons can do that, what exactly is stopping (for example) a Catholic diocese from doing something similar to LDSjobs.org?
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Sep 26, 2016 14:01
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Ceciltron posted:I'm a bad Catholic. I say I'm a bad Catholic because I don't go to church every sunday (the choir takes a break during the summer -I wish they didn't) and don't pray the rosary every day like I promised my grandfather I would. I believe, though. I have faith, insofar as I am reasonably certain God is quite real and the saints are very important to our lives. I try to live my life according to the rules of the Church, as best I can at least -sometimes you forget not to eat fish on Fridays. Lent is vegetarian and completely sober from Ash Wednesday until Easter Morning. "A bad Catholic" is God's label to attach, not yours; and He's famously willing to forgive you when you confess and are repentant. On a personal note, if staying sober during Lent -- as opposed to giving up alcohol -- is a goal and a sacrifice, you're probably drinking more than is healthy for you.
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Sep 26, 2016 16:00
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Pellisworth posted:this all seems in line with Lutheranism CATHOLICS! eh eh eh eh. LUTHERANS! doot do do do
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Sep 26, 2016 16:51
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That was a much better set of responses than I expected I'd get! I will definitely concede that I think more about this stuff the more hopeless things get, which is certainly in line with the concept of desolation -which is quite apt term for my mental situation. I think it's also entirely fair to remind me that being a good catholic doesn't necessarily mean praying a lot. I definitely need to disentangle my feelings about it in that respect. Touching, specifically, on what Thirteen Orphans said: I hadn't considered that. I do understand that God's love can be reflected in the love of a couple, but the questions you asked -"will [my love for her] make me a better person?", struck a chord. I'd say it certainly has. It's taught me a lot about patience and understanding and even shown me that I have a long way to go. So thanks, gang. You've all given me some really productive things to think about rather than just sitting in the dark worrying all the time.
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Sep 26, 2016 18:39
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No problem! Now let me channel Hey Gal a little by saying that I hope you get better and get back here to post fancy hats.
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Sep 26, 2016 18:55
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One last thing -- I'm a non-Catholic, but I'm pretty sure that a priest can release you from private vows, so that you can find a way to honor your grandfather's memory without feeling obligated to pray the Rosary specifically.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:27
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Can someone tell me more about Southern Baptism? I used to go to a southern baptist church all the time as a kid but over my teenager years I became a sort of "optimistic agnostic" and kind of just stopped going. The last time I went to a church (also southern baptist but a different one from my childhood) it was very fire and brimstone which just turned me off tremendously, but recently I've started to have a kind of spiritual awakening. I think I want to be southern baptist to better remember a lot of people important to me that passed away but I really don't like the whole fire and brimstone thing and I really don't know anything about the denomination or its beliefs despite going to one for like 8 years. EDIT-I am familiar with its origin and YEESH but I mostly mean like its modern form Man Whore fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 19:38
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(outsider's point of view, be aware) There's been a thing called the Southern Baptist resurgence that radically changed the church from what you may remember from childhood. Women teachers have been fired from the seminaries because women should never instruct men. In 1998 the Baptist Faith and Message was amended (Wikipedia) "by adding a complementarian statement about male-priority gender roles in marriage, including an adverbial modifier to the verb "submit": a wife is to "submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband", followed by a lengthy description of a husband's duty to "love his wife unconditionally."" There have been public statements against contraception. Basically, the church has gone hard-right both in politics and in Bible interpretation.
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Sep 26, 2016 20:12
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if you're anywhere near florida, cythreal is looking for people to hang out with and it turns out there's at least two of you
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Sep 26, 2016 20:15
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Otoh the wiki article also mentions that the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship with 1,900 churches and 700,000 congregants broke away from the SBC in 1991 because of that, and they're described as "theologically moderate". There's even a "theologically progressive" group that turned away from the SBC (Alliance of Baptists), but they're only 130 churches strong. If there's no fire-and-brimstone-less SBC church where you live, then you may be lucky and find a CBF or Alliance congregation near where you live, OP  As an aside: that wiki article you linked is really interesting, thanks for this!
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Sep 26, 2016 20:19
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Oh good lord, that article is really something. Basically a politically motivated coup in a loving christian denomination. I think I understood why my Dad seemed to very angrily answer baptist when I asked him our denomination even though the church we went to was southern baptist. I'm 22 though so this would have all happened a long time before I was even born HEY GAL posted:if you're anywhere near florida, cythreal is looking for people to hang out with and it turns out there's at least two of you Man Whore fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 20:30
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Man Whore posted:Basically a politically motivated coup in a loving christian denomination.
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Sep 26, 2016 20:34
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Basically, the church has gone hard-right both in politics and in Bible interpretation. The push towards right-wing politics and fundamentalism are why Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton both severed ties with the SBC. Putting people like (the very Calvinist) Al Mohler in positions of power to advance complementarianism and Biblical inerrancy wound up being a bad idea for them in the long run though, because now they have a nasty infestation of Calvinists and the old guard aren't too happy about it. The American Baptists are the politically liberal wing of the Baptist family, and there might be some close to you in Ohio. They're vanishingly rare in the south, though. That'd be the closest thing to what you grew up with while also being more liberal and less fire-and-brimstone.
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Sep 26, 2016 21:49
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Sadly my computer is out of commission for a while thanks to Windows somehow getting corrupted from a brief power outage so I can't post regularly. Happily, everyone's already covered Baptists 101 already. It's the denomination I grew up in and it still powerfully informs my religious beliefs, but I've personally broken with the SBC due to its political conservatism. I've personally become very liberal politically and religiously, and I can no longer tolerate the SBC's patronage of what boils down to racism, homophobia, and misogyny.
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Sep 26, 2016 22:12
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Man Whore posted:Oh good lord, that article is really something. Basically a politically motivated coup in a loving christian denomination. I think I understood why my Dad seemed to very angrily answer baptist when I asked him our denomination even though the church we went to was southern baptist. where in ohio, i am knowledgeable about baptists in ohio and west virginia
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Sep 26, 2016 22:24
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Ceciltron posted:If I'm lucky, I can scrape enough money together to buy a bottle of wine or some rye and drink, at which point I will usually recite a few decades of the rosary, crawl into bed and pass out. Hi, this is very much personal experience andI have no idea if it has any bearing on your situation, but I have in the past found that alcohol and prayer is a very spiritually dangerous combination when you're in a dark place. Of course it can also help you become Martin Luther, so your mileage may vary.
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Sep 26, 2016 22:46
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Smoking Crow posted:where in ohio, i am knowledgeable about baptists in ohio and west virginia Pike county, the church I went to as a kid was dailyville and I guess its actually a "Free Will" Baptist church but I also went to this tiny one room church in the country which definitely was southern baptist. how far down does the baptist hole go Man Whore fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Sep 26, 2016 |
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Sep 26, 2016 23:46
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I really wish Martin Luther would've had the internet, alternating quality effort-posting on theology and doctrine with hilarious drunken shitposts where he compares papists to donkey farts or whatever. For what it's worth, Luther is not remotely considered a saint or venerated in Protestant traditions (veneration of anything that isn't the triune God being idolatry in Protestant thinking). He was a good theologian and public speaker, the printing press allowed his shitposting to go viral and eventually schism the Catholic Church. e: also a raging anti-Semite. That's partly why I'm so interested in him as a historical figure, he was extremely goony with deeply human flaws. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 00:00
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Mr Enderby posted:Hi, this is very much personal experience andI have no idea if it has any bearing on your situation, but I have in the past found that alcohol and prayer is a very spiritually dangerous combination when you're in a dark place. You said spiritually dangerous, then you repeated it in the next paragraph? Edit: Pellisworth, I like your description of much of Luther's writing as shitposting and will steal it.
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Sep 27, 2016 00:02
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Edit: Pellisworth, I like your description of much of Luther's writing as shitposting and will steal it. When I talk about the Protestant Reformation I give a lot of credit to guys like John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, Martin Luther didn't magically champion the Reformation, he was building on previous unsuccessful attempts. IMO it's really the printing press that is the star of the Reformation, you had good theologians across Europe spamming letters and scurrilous broadsheets. There were a lot of legitimate grievances with the Catholic Church and the printing press allowed them to be popularized. e: among influential figures in Christian history, I can't think of anyone goonier than Martin Luther. He's this thread's spirit animal. Also should be noted that Luther did not intend to incite a schism with Rome, he wanted to reform the church from within. But politics within the Holy Roman Empire are absurdly complex and Luther's theological contentions quickly developed into a political movement in opposition to the (Catholic) Austrian Hapsburg emperor. One of the main motivating factors for the 30YW was confiscation of church land by Protestant princes in the HRE, if you hopped on board with Lutheranism (or shortly thereafter, Calvinism) you could seize lands belonging to the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation is deeply entangled with German (and other former HRE) politics. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 00:08
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I don't know about Luther not being venerated, I definitely know about some movements within the Lutheran Church of Germany where he is the next best thing to a saint, complete with St Martin's Day being changed into Martin-Luther-Day in some parts. This reached its peak in the 19th century, but is in some places still very much alive (just a couple of days ago I read in an article about that very topic how American Lutherans come to Eisleben to kiss Luther's baptismal font) Also there's a super cool Playmobile figurine of Luther 
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Sep 27, 2016 07:47
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The quill looks like a knife in the thumbnail. Very menacing.
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Sep 27, 2016 08:40
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Ceciltron posted:If I'm lucky, I can scrape enough money together to buy a bottle of wine or some rye and drink, at which point I will usually recite a few decades of the rosary, crawl into bed and pass out. Just chiming in to say that drinking yourself to sleep is very unhealthy, and definitely not a good way to get anything but a false connection to the divine. Getting clean and sober is what got me to feel and understand God in the first place, and if you think faith is wonderful drunk, try it without the juice We have a whole addiction and recovery thread, where goons a lot more astray than you got sober and conscious of God! Feel free to peek in any time, we're there to help you.
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Sep 27, 2016 08:47
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Paladinus posted:Very menacing. To papist scum
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Sep 27, 2016 09:30
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Pellisworth posted:e: among influential figures in Christian history, I can't think of anyone goonier than Martin Luther. He's this thread's spirit animal.  doe
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Sep 27, 2016 09:39
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HEY GAL posted:thomas aquinas was a massive My old chaplain HATES when people say Aquinas was super heavy. He's convinced it's some kind of anti-Catholic rumor that stuck.
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Sep 27, 2016 09:45
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