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Yes because PC beasts aren't violent and destructive monsters they are serving a purpose and are therefore good  The book even tells you so like fifty times.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:25
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I am waiting with nigh-uncontrollable anticipation for you to get to the 'so how was this in the first draft' section of this chapter.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:31
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Daeren posted:I am waiting with nigh-uncontrollable anticipation for you to get to the 'so how was this in the first draft' section of this chapter. Ding.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:42
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Surprisingly, the thing you're alluding to actually changes very little in the text I've gone over so far. Other than the fact that Heroes in the KS copy used to be inspired by Beast Hungers. They used the pagespace that took up to include the "how to Heroes deal with other supernaturals" bits. Which is why a lot of people were so pissed off, they were awfully blasé about the way that Heroes originally came about.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:51
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Kurieg posted:Surprisingly, the thing you're alluding to actually changes very little in the text I've gone over so far. Other than the fact that Heroes in the KS copy used to be inspired by Beast Hungers. They used the pagespace that took up to include the "how to Heroes deal with other supernaturals" bits. Oh, yes, but this still means we're very close to discussing the beating heart of why Beast went so wrong.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:54
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Kurieg posted:Surprisingly, the thing you're alluding to actually changes very little in the text I've gone over so far. Other than the fact that Heroes in the KS copy used to be inspired by Beast Hungers. They used the pagespace that took up to include the "how to Heroes deal with other supernaturals" bits. The really big changes to this section happened after the first leak rather than after the Kickstarter.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:57
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I actually can't find the first leak anymore. Though I vaguely remember bits and pieces of it, like that Heroes used to have their own Lexicon section and it was bad.
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Sep 28, 2016 23:02
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I really want to play a Demon campaign where you're all specializing in tracking down Heroes and taking the innocents out of their lives through bargains because gently caress Beasts. "I seek the power to bring this monster low, Mr. Grey." "Cool. Gimme your family." "The price...but the compulsion..." "I'll get your kids through college and they'll find internships. Did you know your daughter Greta has the smarts to be a chemical engineer and she's only 9? Give them to me and I'll keep them safe." "Fine. *signs*" "Alright, here's a flamethrower. Don't just try to fill this thing with gasoline, that won't work." "Ooh. Free flamethrower! What's the catch?"
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Sep 28, 2016 23:51
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 Return to the TOMB OF HORRORS part 16: The Beginning of the Conclusion Home stretch, guys. We’ve shot the chutes, climbed the ladders and arrived at Acererak’s doorstep. From here on out, things are at maximum realness. The Negative Energy Plane is a vast expanse of nothingness. Not just the lack of matter, or of life, but the absolute antithesis of both: no heat, no light can exist here for long. This is where things come to end. There is no air to breathe, and even if you don’t need air, life is drained directly from your body at a rate of 2d6 HP per round. Reaching zero instantly, permanently and irrevocably kills you and transforms you into an undead. Negative Plane Protection stops this effect, but the lack of air and heat still present a problem. Any item with a magical bonus forged on the Prime loses two pluses while on it (a +3 sword becomes +1, for example). Conjuration/summoning magic can only draw on the planes of Ash, Dust, Salt and Vacuum. Healing spells heal the minimum amount of life; damaging spells inflict the maximum. Any matter created by magic crumbles to dust after a round (that includes food). Likely you won’t be stupid enough to end up here yourself, but if you try to burrow or carve through the stone, it’s only 5’ to the plane. Breaking through will cause it to draw you in like a vacuum. The Fortress itself is somewhat insulated from these effects, but as Acererak is unliving himself (and, indeed holds nothing but contempt for the living), he did not feel the need to make it very safe. These effects apply inside the Fortress: 1) Undead are turned as if they were five categories higher on the turning table. 2) Necromantic spells have their casting time reduced by five units. 3) Anything rat-sized or larger that dies has a 95% chance of animating spontaneously in one round as a zombie with the same HD as the original creature. 4) Undead regenerate at 2 hp/round, or an additional 2 hp/round if they normally have regeneration. 5) Healing spells are at 50% effectiveness. 6) It is chillingly cold, dealing 1hp of damage per hour to unprotected creatures, and infravision is nearly useless here. 7) Because this Fortress is in the Negative Energy Plane, it does not connect to the Astral or Ethereal planes (except the ledge at Area 1, which connects to the Ethereal). You simply cannot access those planes within the Fortress. 8) Items with magical bonuses lose one “plus” in the Fortress unless forged there. 9) Finally, Acererak can freely and spontaneously “possess” and control any undead in the Fortress at any time. Destroying his “host” does not affect him at all. In these forms he can cast any of his array of spells, which is truly gigantic. I won’t list them all, but it starts with Magic Missile x2, goes through Fireball and Cone of Cold, makes a detour at Invisibility and Dimension Door before turning at Finger of Death and Banishment and ending up with Time Stop and Wish. He has 37 spells prepared of 1st through 9th level and is very smart about using them. Here, have a map:  So, we begin in Area 1. The Fortress projects incongruously out of an unimaginably vast wall of blackness somewhere on the edge of the plane. The façade is a truly massive Face of the Devourer, Acererak’s symbol, and the ledge is its tongue. The Phantom Flyer deposits you here before a rusted iron post holding a single emerald lantern, before which stands the door. It is politely marked “Fortress of Conclusion.” No word on if there is a mat or not, or what it might be made of if so. The Flyer will wait patiently for one month before tanar’ri come to take it back to Moil, so hopefully it’ll be here when PCs are done with it. The door itself is unlocked and untrapped, but try convincing your PCs of that at this point.  welcome to you're "doom" Area 2 is the first room inside the Fortress proper. It is, much like the entrance to the original TOMB OF HORRORS, plastered, with paintings along the walls, floor and ceiling in a chaotic jumble. They depict unsettling and horrific scenes; insectoid dragons zoom through scarlet clouds while battling massive tentacles rising from the sea, gargantuan worms annihilate towns in their squirming wake, man-sized insects flee from hordes of tiny humans. A worm's mouth yawns open, forming a doorway to the next area.  worms, oh my god worms Acererak has spent millennia in contemplation and solitary wandering between the planes, and he has left these paintings to depict strange things he’s seen. Remember, his chief motivation is proving he’s Smarter Than You, and this is a way of showing you: look at all I’ve done, everywhere I’ve gone. He wants people to understand his long, strange unlife. Anyone damaging the plaster is in for a nasty surprise. Acererak really likes it and doesn’t want it marred. For each 1’x1’ section of plaster you scrape away, you must make a saving throw vs. spell, with a cumulative -1 (to a max -5) for additional 1’x1’ panels. A failed save draws you into the painting, where you become nothing more than a masterfully illustrated two-dimensional figure. The paintings grow back at a rate of 1’x1’ per turn, trapping you as part of the image. Only a wish can extract someone, though you can carefully chip away the portion of the painting they’re in to carry them around—but doing so counts as damaging the painting. Damaging the depiction or destroying it hurts or kills the PC. Proceeding through the door takes you to Area 3, where we finally learn the fate of the mysterious Desatysso. WARNING, THIS IS KIND OF GRUESOME It turns out that this wizard was more resourceful than we thought. He made it all the way to the fortress. Unfortunately, his luck ran out, and for mysterious reasons of his own Acererak did not soulsuck him. Instead, he left him here, as a trap for later arrivals. Desatysso is hanging from a hook on the ceiling by a leather strap. He wears only the remnants of a cloak, and his arms have been sewn to his sides with black thread. His legs are similarly sewn together, and his eyes and mouth are shut likewise. However, Acererak kept him alive, and allows him to communicate. He obviously can’t talk but he can project his thoughts at PCs, and does so; anyone with a Wisdom of 13 or higher can hear a hoarse whisper in their heads as he introduces himself and pleads for release. If PCs agree to release him, he will tell them what he knows: he came here as they did, on the Flyer, but was met on the platform by a gaunt figure in a robe. The figure greeted him scornfully, saying it had no use for just one, and moved to attack, but Desatysso blew it away with a lightning bolt; it was a mere skeleton. After that his memory is more vague. He remembers navigating a few rooms with unspecified dangers, a pit of animate bones, an abyssal creature kept bound, a dark laboratory, and deadly traps everywhere. The last thing he remembers is coming on a crystal sphere in which he could see phantom faces moaning in anguish. A picture of Desatysso:  Desatysso is, of course, a trap. He’s easy to kill, but anyone who does so must save vs. spell at -4. Failure to do so means the stitches wriggle free of Desatysso’s body and sew themselves onto the unfortunate PC. The leather strap and hook pick up the new victim and hang him or her where Desatysso was before. This inflicts 4d10 damage, drains a level, and forces a System Shock check at half normal chance or you just die from shock. If you live, you’re just where he was before: stuck, able to communicate only mentally, but surviving indefinitely with no need for sustenance. You can free such a person by cutting the stitches free, but there are 13, they deal 1d6 each to remove, and as long as any are attached no healing of any kind will work on the victim (so you can’t free Desatysso this way without killing him). Of course, killing a bound PC passes on the curse. This room has a secret door which can be found by pushing in and then sliding up the stone façade covering it. You can also use chimes of opening, but not knock. The door can also just be smashed down if you feel like it. We'll deal with what's on the other side next time. Area 4 is a dead end. It’s very dark here, darker than normal, and as you progress down the corridor your light fades. That’s because the end of the corridor contains a Nightwalker, a nasty and powerful monster from the Mystara Monstrous Appendix. Acererak has cast a modified continual darkness on it to generate the light-dampening effect, which can be dispelled. The Nightwalker is native to the Negative Energy Plane and embodies destructive entropy. It will ignore PCs unless they probe the end of the corridor or dispel its darkness. Once roused, it’ll pursue them throughout the complex. It’s huge—20 feet tall—and very tough, with two 3d10 fist attacks at Thac0 5 and a ridiculous AC of -6. It’s immune to weapons of less than +3 enchantment, spells of less than 6th level, poison, petrification, cold, illusion, charm and hold effects. Its presence spoils rations, potions and holy water, anyone hit by its fists must save vs. poison at -2 or die, and it can cast at will, once per round, at 21st level, cause disease, charm person, cloudkill, confusion, darkness, haste, hold person and invisibility. Once a day it can cast finger of death. Once a round it can curse someone up to 60’ away, save vs. spell to resist, with -4 to everything until they get a dispel evil or remove curse from a 21st+ level caster. Finally, it destroys any item it strikes if it fails a saving through vs. crushing blow, and can just destroy any weapon or magic item it chooses by smashing it flat between its hands. Also, there’s no treasure here, and the corridor is a dead end. Do not mess with this thing. I will say that if you must, it has no magic resistance at all (aside from its spell immunities) and so a party with high level spells prepared can maze it long enough to get away, but drat. Unlike the Vestige, this thing is hard to shake, and it's about as difficult to kill. Next time: Balls and Bones
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Sep 29, 2016 00:53
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Kurieg posted:I actually can't find the first leak anymore. Though I vaguely remember bits and pieces of it, like that Heroes used to have their own Lexicon section and it was bad. quote:Hero Slang PUT IT ON KICKSTARTER
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Sep 29, 2016 01:54
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Tulul posted:PUT IT ON KICKSTARTER fuckin 
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Sep 29, 2016 01:59
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So, what stopped them from just making "good" Heroes into Hunters?
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Sep 29, 2016 02:03
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Young Freud posted:So, what stopped them from just making "good" Heroes into Hunters?
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Sep 29, 2016 02:11
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They straight up said that if you want someone who's actually noble and justified to just use a Hunter, because that's not "the kind of story" they want to tell with Heroes.
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Sep 29, 2016 02:29
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theironjef posted:Prime Directive at least forced you to spend some of your character resources on hobbies instead of begging you to, but it does have another amusingly passive aggressive sidebar about watching the players to make sure their hobbies aren't useful skills in disguise. "Whoa whoa fencing? Don't you go bringing that Sulu crap in here. You could use that! Switch that to fishing or GTFO."
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Sep 29, 2016 02:52
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Kurieg posted:Prometheans "I'm a monster, but I don't want to be a monster." "I kill monsters. But why would you want to be human?" Beast. 
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Sep 29, 2016 02:57
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Tulul posted:slang 
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Sep 29, 2016 03:01
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Night10194 posted:I mean Feng Shui was a mess, too, and still had a bunch of holdovers of standard RPG design like inexplicable drunkness rules or keeping track of exact numbers of bullets. But it was made in the 90s; 'Our game is a mess and has a resolution mechanic that isn't great but has SOME thought put into it' is stellar by the par of the time. There is nothing inexplicable about drunkenness rules in a game modeling a film genre with multiple Drunken Master movies.
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Sep 29, 2016 03:34
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Young Freud posted:So, what stopped them from just making "good" Heroes into Hunters? If you have a game about morally ambiguous Hunters stalking morally ambiguous Beasts through a Primordial Dream, you need to pay From Software to give you the Bloodborne license. That also features a free flamethrower. Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 03:52
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Tulul posted:Crusader Rabbit: A male Hero who exclusively hunts Beasts targeting women. It's a bit strange that they feel the need to explain a reference to one of the most famous stories from the Bible, but not explain a reference to a sixty-year-old cartoon.
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Sep 29, 2016 04:20
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:FORTRESS OF CONCLUSION That is a really good dungeon name, drat. So with every undead encounter in the Fortress is the DM encouraged to have Acererak pop in and say hi? Or is just every now and then instead of every time?
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Sep 29, 2016 04:45
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Halloween Jack posted:To be fair to Shadowrun, later editions gave you a pool of points to spend on "Knowledge Skills," and that's where you'd put points in Elven Wine and 20th Century Vids (as in Star Trek, everything was cooler a century ago). But you still had an incentive to put your points in skills like Corporate Security Procedures and Smuggler Havens instead. Hah, I hadn't even thought about that, generall the only conversation about 3e monster knowledge is the famous Bears live in the woods bit. I do recall a lot of Haven's skills seemed very backwards. Like it was a snap to identify a cheap painting no one had ever heard of but literally impossible to ID the Mona Lisa.
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Sep 29, 2016 05:44
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Kurieg posted:Yes because PC beasts aren't violent and destructive monsters they are serving a purpose and are therefore good Beast is by far one of the biggest RPG disappointments for me. This game could be so cool as a thing where it's this constant push and pull between the 'hero' and the 'beast' where the entire point is 'good' and 'bad' in these stories is a matter of perspective a lot of times and heroes can do horrible things and monsters can be noble and all that. You know, really push the WoD universe that's supposed to already revel in shades of grey. Instead, nah, it's just lazy 'but what if the MONSTERS were inherently good and the HEROES were inherently bad????'
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Sep 29, 2016 06:00
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Beast is by far one of the biggest RPG disappointments for me. This game could be so cool as a thing where it's this constant push and pull between the 'hero' and the 'beast' where the entire point is 'good' and 'bad' in these stories is a matter of perspective a lot of times and heroes can do horrible things and monsters can be noble and all that. You know, really push the WoD universe that's supposed to already revel in shades of grey. The disappointment is even bone-deeper than that, though. I remember when the game was just starting to get teased, and myself and many others thought "I'm secretly a dragon and my existence causes 'heroes' to fight me and create legends" sounded pretty cool. Then it turns out you just have the "soul" of a dragon, and further that the game is literally a somehow unwitting metaphor for the dregs of Tumblr stereotypes. Like, subverting expectations is probably good for any creative project to do at least a little if you want to be remembered for more than a hot second. But way to "flip the script" to such a degree that the obvious elevator pitch vanishes completely in a puff of pretentious argot.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:07
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That Old Tree posted:The disappointment is even bone-deeper than that, though. I remember when the game was just starting to get teased, and myself and many others thought "I'm secretly a dragon and my existence causes 'heroes' to fight me and create legends" sounded pretty cool. Then it turns out you just have the "soul" of a dragon, and further that the game is literally a somehow unwitting metaphor for the dregs of Tumblr stereotypes. I too was ultimately disappointed by Fireborn.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:14
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Way back in the long, long ago; Jef and I (mostly Jef) kept saying that we would review this Batman RPG he had. We kept putting it off. The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. But now we make good on that promise. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Batman Roleplaying Game
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Sep 29, 2016 06:16
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That Old Tree posted:The disappointment is even bone-deeper than that, though. I remember when the game was just starting to get teased, and myself and many others thought "I'm secretly a dragon and my existence causes 'heroes' to fight me and create legends" sounded pretty cool. Then it turns out you just have the "soul" of a dragon, and further that the game is literally a somehow unwitting metaphor for the dregs of Tumblr stereotypes. that too yea, the original tease of 'I'm a loving thing, my existence makes these weird 'heroes' decide I HAVE to die because I'm inherently unnatural and I have to struggle between saying 'ok guess I'm eating bitches' and trying to rise above it' was really loving cool. Then we get...this. This is the absolute least morally ambiguous WoD game I've ever seen which is bonkers because for all its many many issues WoD's always been able to hold a good selling point of 'this is a world where morality kinda goes out the window as a blanket thing and it comes down to what you as an individual feel'. Having a game that literally describes the 'good' guys as the ones who never challenge you, and thus anyone who does is inherently 'bad' completely throws that out the window. No more poo poo like 'hey I'm a vampire, I'm kinda hosed up in tons of ways but on the other hand I literally NEED to feed on people so...what are we gonna do here' and 'I'm a werewolf, I'm also hosed up in a lot of ways but I genuinely believe I need to keep the balance between this world and a world 99% of people will never experience' kinda stuff. Just 'I'm a weirdo with a ~dragon soul~, I'm the good guy, anyone who tries to stop me is the bad guy. This isn't me the character saying it to show my views are rigid and flawed, this is the out of character rule book telling you this'.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:17
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theironjef posted:I too was ultimately disappointed by Fireborn. My friend bought the Players Guide or whatever for Fireborn a long time ago, but couldn't get a hold of the GM's book, whatever that was called. The PG really excited him, though, and he was always talking about trying to get a game going. Then he got hold of the GM's book and whatever expanded mechanics it had or didn't have in there for your dragon-soul flashbacks made him go "Oh" and immediately drop the idea. Grnegsnspm posted:Way back in the long, long ago; Jef and I (mostly Jef) kept saying that we would review this Batman RPG he had. We kept putting it off. The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. But now we make good on that promise. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Batman Roleplaying Game I hope the title is direly accurate.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:21
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That Old Tree posted:My friend bought the Players Guide or whatever for Fireborn a long time ago, but couldn't get a hold of the GM's book, whatever that was called. The PG really excited him, though, and he was always talking about trying to get a game going. Then he got hold of the GM's book and whatever expanded mechanics it had or didn't have in there for your dragon-soul flashbacks made him go "Oh" and immediately drop the idea. Pretty sure I had a friend go through the exact same process with the first two Scion books. That Old Tree posted:My friend bought the Players Guide or whatever for Fireborn a long time ago, but couldn't get a hold of the GM's book, whatever that was called. The PG really excited him, though, and he was always talking about trying to get a game going. Then he got hold of the GM's book and whatever expanded mechanics it had or didn't have in there for your dragon-soul flashbacks made him go "Oh" and immediately drop the idea. Almost ridiculously so.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:23
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Instead, nah, it's just lazy 'but what if the MONSTERS were inherently good and the HEROES were inherently bad????' One of the extra irritations about Beast is that if you go through reading the book, it relentlessly beats this drum about "subverting the narrative" of the Hero's Journey, by which it means the assumption that the hero of a story must confront and bring a monster low before the trouble is resolved. I got sick of the word "narrative" by the end of reading through it. Subverting the Hero's Journey is basic storytelling 101 stuff, it is not hard to wrap your head around, and yet this book which is so obsessed with this idea doesn't show a shred of comprehension of what that means, because the whole book clearly wants to be about a "hero" confronting and bringing a "monster" low. It just thinks painting the "monster" a shiny white and sticking a dragon's tail on the "hero" is subversive, and not just the same drat thing except you swapped places.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:37
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Character creation step one: how did your parents die?
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Sep 29, 2016 06:38
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Hostile V posted:Character creation step one: how did your parents die? That's in every roleplaying game though.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:43
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Kavak posted:That's in every roleplaying game though.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:50
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theironjef posted:Pretty sure I had a friend go through the exact same process with the first two Scion books. Scion: Cool concept, absolutely dreadful execution between WW Creep and really bad mechanics, and iirc, the adventures pretty much expects you have the same line up of powers as the sample characters or else you'd be hosed.
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Sep 29, 2016 07:21
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You could totally do a Batman Inc RPG where everyone is one of Batman's franchisess or an RPG where you're all alternative versions of Batman from various time periods/universes. Like that Brave & The Bold episode or that Grant Morrison comic.
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Sep 29, 2016 08:46
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Is anyone else getting an incredibly creepy stalker-justifications vibe from the Beast stuff? It reads like a serial killer apologist's screed - "no see actually I'm really the good guy because".
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Sep 29, 2016 08:58
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Loxbourne posted:Is anyone else getting an incredibly creepy stalker-justifications vibe from the Beast stuff? Have we passed the part where it uses actual documented child abuse techniques as examples? Because that was the point it went from "Matt McFarland is a stubborn rear end in a top hat who cannot see the gaping flaws in his work" to "Matt McFarland has some serious goddamn issues."
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Sep 29, 2016 09:41
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Kavak posted:That's in every roleplaying game though. They don't give extra points for narrating it in a gritty monologue.
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Sep 29, 2016 10:44
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Robindaybird posted:Scion: Cool concept, absolutely dreadful execution between WW Creep and really bad mechanics, and iirc, the adventures pretty much expects you have the same line up of powers as the sample characters or else you'd be hosed. The 2e Scion Kickstarter is up right now, and by god they seem to have learned a lot of lessons.
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Sep 29, 2016 13:04
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Scion sounds to me like they didn't learn any lessons from Aberrant, setting-wise and especially rules-wise.Grnegsnspm posted:Way back in the long, long ago; Jef and I (mostly Jef) kept saying that we would review this Batman RPG he had. We kept putting it off. The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. But now we make good on that promise. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Batman Roleplaying Game Count Chocula posted:You could totally do a Batman Inc RPG where everyone is one of Batman's franchisess or an RPG where you're all alternative versions of Batman from various time periods/universes. Like that Brave & The Bold episode or that Grant Morrison comic.
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Sep 29, 2016 14:43
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