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If this does go the "Piedmon (or someone else) put this into play long ago to weaken the Digidestined" route, is it bad of me to want Piedmon to claim everything that happens was all according to plan?
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Sep 27, 2016 17:00
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Kuroyama posted:If this does go the "Piedmon (or someone else) put this into play long ago to weaken the Digidestined" route, is it bad of me to want Piedmon to claim everything that happens was all according to plan?  That was me as well.
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Sep 27, 2016 17:18
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So, why didn't the new girl go with them into the Digital World? And Kairi's rookie was there which was interesting.
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Sep 27, 2016 17:21
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I mean if it all turns out to be according to Piedmon's keikaku, at least give him a proper next form, and not ChaosPiedmon. Palette swaps is Digimon's biggest crime (Panjyamon, BlackGarurumon/ShadowWereGarurumon, 4 different Greymon that I don't even remember the names). Andrew_1985 posted:And Kairi's rookie was there which was interesting. Would have been a fun nod (and to deflate the depressing atmosphere) to have Kairi go "Wait, who the gently caress are you?" since she never met Nyaromon. I'm glad they didn't do it though.
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Sep 27, 2016 17:28
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Andrew_1985 posted:So, why didn't the new girl go with them into the Digital World? Because she's got a guilt complex blaming herself for everything.
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Sep 27, 2016 17:37
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Burkion posted:I can give a good reason why it shouldn't happen. Not that it won't because for all we know, it'll take a right turn to stupidity and Matt will be off to Mars. I dunno why you pick up a show you ended 15 years ago to go, "you know that ending you guys didn't like? It was really, REALLY good. And now that you're grown and have kids of your own we wanted to touch base with you guys and see if you finally understand that this epilogue was the best you could have hoped for." This isn't Gainax we're talking about here.
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Sep 28, 2016 01:46
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Kurui Reiten posted:I just want to see them messing up all the Season 1 villains' plans by knowing what they're gonna try in one long rear end montage. This is what I think the plan is on Gennai and Himekawa's part. They're next leveling whatever is actually causing the infection by literally save scumming the entirety of adventure.
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Sep 29, 2016 04:26
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Kithkar posted:This is what I think the plan is on Gennai and Himekawa's part. They're next leveling whatever is actually causing the infection by literally save scumming the entirety of adventure. On one hand that is very messed up, on the other hand going New Game+ on this poo poo and getting Six Megas out before Myotismon can even start his army sounds dope as hell.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:48
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If this means we get Devimon being loving boss again, I'm all for it.
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Sep 29, 2016 06:59
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Might mean stabbing Devimon's baby form with Omegamon's sword.
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Sep 29, 2016 07:21
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Nah, I actually want the whole plan to backfire. They try to New Game+ the evil guys, but surprise! The evil guys also brought their Gameshark. So Angemon vs Devimon turns into Seraphimon vs SkullSatamon
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Sep 29, 2016 07:55
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lezard_valeth posted:Nah, I actually want the whole plan to backfire. Seraphimon fighting Daemon sounds great. I mean, I know that Seraphimon must always lose, sure, but at least he could try to do something for once.
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Sep 29, 2016 12:34
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ArmyOfMidgets posted:Might mean stabbing Devimon's baby form with Omegamon's sword. demidevimon was a rookie!!!
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Sep 29, 2016 16:17
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mandatory lesbian posted:demidevimon was a rookie!!! I'm not talking about Demidevimon, i'm saying you get the kids to the egg village, wait for whatever 'mon becomes Devimon to hatch and then Stab That Newborn with Omegamon's sword. Go even beyond Minority Report.
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Sep 29, 2016 17:44
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I think Apocalymon created the Dark Masters who created Devimon and Myotismon/vamdemon right? I haven't seen the whole series in 15 years but that sounds right. Or maybe it was in supplementary materials or something.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:18
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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:I think Apocalymon created the Dark Masters who created Devimon and Myotismon/vamdemon right? I haven't seen the whole series in 15 years but that sounds right. Or maybe it was in supplementary materials or something. Apocalymon created the Dark Masters and Devimon specifically. As far as anyone knows, Myotismon was just some random evil rear end in a top hat who took advantage of how lovely things were getting, much like Etemon and Datamon. Remember, only Devimon and the Dark Masters were working actively towards Apocalymon's goals. Myotismon was always in this for himself, and Etemon was basically a Digimon warlord fighting for territory.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:23
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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:I think Apocalymon created the Dark Masters who created Devimon and Myotismon/vamdemon right? I haven't seen the whole series in 15 years but that sounds right. Or maybe it was in supplementary materials or something. Apocalymon was a collection of all the "bad" data in the Digital World, specifically that of Digimon who failed to evolve properly and splattered themselves all across the digital domain that eventually collected into a single being which became Apocalymon. He didn't create Devimon, Myotismon, or the Dark Masters, but he did have access to their various powers for... reasons.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:42
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nine-gear crow posted:Apocalymon was a collection of all the "bad" data in the Digital World, specifically that of Digimon who failed to evolve properly and splattered themselves all across the digital domain that eventually collected into a single being which became Apocalymon. He didn't create Devimon, Myotismon, or the Dark Masters, but he did have access to their various powers for... reasons. Actually I'm pretty sure he did create at least Devimon. I'm PRETTY sure he created the Dark Masters as well, as they were the ones who knew what was up with the DigiDestined and actively worked against them behind the scenes. Myotismon had a small idea of it, but wasn't directly involved. Etemon was, of course, utterly clueless. The really interesting thing about Apocalymon was that his attempt to leave his abyss was the second try. His first attempt was thwarted by the original DigiDestined, of whom we know virtually nothing about. I'd wager though... FBI Lady may be one of the original five Digidestined. Jesmon might even be her partner, to go a step even further
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Sep 30, 2016 02:47
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I remember Apocalamon claimed to make the Dark Masters and possibly even Devimon. Of course, the goofy voice, terrible dub jokes, and fact that he really didn't get to do much on screen makes it a bit vague to me.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:57
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Apocalymon is only stated to have played a role in the creation of the Dark Masters, and even then, the original is sort of vague about it. Specifically, he's the source of the distortions causing havoc between the real and digital worlds that either empowered or birthed the various villains, but he's not exactly proactive about it, they just happen because he exists. Either way, he does use Devimon's attack, but he also uses Vamdemon's, so there's a reason why that guy being a part of him can't work, so not every bad guy is necessarily his creation. They're not really gonna follow the dub, also. That one makes him out to be more directly responsible while in the original he's just kind of a consequence of existence.
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Sep 30, 2016 03:23
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 also this is Docmon, and he is the best design we've seen from Applimonsters. He's an evil vampire surgeon and one of his fusions involves literal drugs. quote:104 - Docmon
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Sep 30, 2016 03:32
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TFRazorsaw posted:Apocalymon is only stated to have played a role in the creation of the Dark Masters, and even then, the original is sort of vague about it. Specifically, he's the source of the distortions causing havoc between the real and digital worlds that either empowered or birthed the various villains, but he's not exactly proactive about it, they just happen because he exists. Either way, he does use Devimon's attack, but he also uses Vamdemon's, so there's a reason why that guy being a part of him can't work, so not every bad guy is necessarily his creation. It makes the most sense if Devimon is also an agent of Apocalymon. In both the Japanese version and the Dub Devimon is very well aware of the forces at work, actively scattered the crests and tags, and alludes to the Dark Masters themselves in his dying words to Angemon and how hilarious he finds it all. The fact that he HAS the Crests and tags straight up says that, at the very least, the Dark Masters/Peidmon specifically conscripted him for the job and that he was working for them, if not a creation of Apocalymon. Remember, Piedmon was the one to steal the Crests and tags from Gennai and company. So he is either a lower agent of Apocalymon, or just (another) agent of Piedmon. The fact that Devimon's arms are the sole thing that Apocalymon accurately recreates when using his attack, specifically to steal and destroy the crests for a fun little nod, implies to me that Devimon was always one of his creations. Every other time Apocalymon used a dead Digimon's attack, it was always in the shadow-y black detail less copy. Devimon was the exception, which gives him some standing as a potential creation.
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Sep 30, 2016 03:33
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well, again, Apocalymon doesn't really have much of a plan or design. He destroys things and hates life. He doesn't really act until there's nothing else left. The Dark Masters don't ever really seem to act with a purpose that involves him, and by the time the Chosen Children get around to them they've basically already won. It's reasonable Devimon has a connection to their creation, but Apocalymon doesn't really have much purpose or involvement in the villains' plans. He's just the nebulous source of everything bad.
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Sep 30, 2016 03:37
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TFRazorsaw posted:well, again, Apocalymon doesn't really have much of a plan or design. He destroys things and hates life. He doesn't really act until there's nothing else left. The Dark Masters don't ever really seem to act with a purpose that involves him, and by the time the Chosen Children get around to them they've basically already won. His main thing is that he wants to be free, and to extend his misery to all. That is what the Dark Masters are for. The DigiDestined, the original 5, combated Apocalymon in the past and kept him from coming through. To this end, he created the Dark Masters and, possibly, Devimon. Their sole job was to gently caress over the forces of good and ruin any defense the Digital World had of his coming back. That's why Piedmon slaughters Gennai's forces, and why there is only Old Man Gennai left. When they were unable to keep the Digi eggs from being sent out into the world, Devimon was entrusted with finding where they ended up and stopping them there, as well as scattering the tags and crests. This of course would have to be Piedmon's plan, or even Devimon's own plan because as you noted, Apocalymon is near incoherent and utterly chaotic. He is literally a self harming, suicidal and irrational entity. All he needed was Agents in the field who could set the stage for his revival. Smaller, minor details didn't matter. Things like Etemon, Myotismon, were byproducts of their actions. Apocalymon isn't some grand chess master- he's just absurdly powerful and wants to get the gently caress out. Which Spiral Mountain and the Dark Masters allow in spades. When you get down to it, Adventure Apocalymon is barely even a Digimon, if he even is one. Tamers Apocalymon is a Digimon- Adventure Apocalymon is something else entirely, a twisted hateful thing in the shape of a Digimon. It's honestly a reason I really like the guy and how he transcends the rest of the villains in the franchise like him, like Lucemon. It's why I hope we see sight of him again come Tri- I think a big budget movie could really do him justice.
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Sep 30, 2016 03:46
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remember when he made a bunch of corny jokes, that was good times also remember when you first saw this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA1AlF6vhL0
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Sep 30, 2016 03:53
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except Spiral Mountain's entire existence derails Apocalymon's entire nebulously defined goals. Despotism doesn't exactly aid nihilism. They're connected, but I'm pretty sure they act independently of each other. EDIT - maybe I'm not remembering things quite right here. I'll have to check the sub next chance I get. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 03:53
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TFRazorsaw posted:except Spiral Mountain's entire existence derails Apocalymon's entire nebulously defined goals. Despotism doesn't exactly aid nihilism. That's what I was getting at. Though part of it comes down to how many weird little destinies and prophecies there were. Depending on how removed Apocalymon was, he may have known that his minions would ultimately die in a way that would allow him freedom. THAT is what is really hard to speculate. Apocalymon was the only one who never had a prophecy about how his defeat would come about. Myotismon did, though only in relation to how the kids got Mega level, Devimon did, and the Dark Masters did in relation to how it would free Apocalymon. But because Apocalymon is such a limited, removed figure you can't know if that was all part of his convoluted plan, or if it was something else entirely. Tri's first episode gives mention of some creator of reality unknowingly creating life. I'm super paraphrasing but, it could be something that is tied into that and the weird Quantum Ocean of the third movie. I really hope we get more into it later on, especially exploring the original Five Digidestined and what happened with them.
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Sep 30, 2016 03:58
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If I may, the books (written by the staff) say that Etemon was a subsidiary of Vamdemon, and they all worked under the Dark Masters, who simply weren't active because they were busy sealing Azulongmon and the others. Apocalymon is just the Beast that lies beyond the Fire Wall who's mere interaction with the world in Etemon's pyramid cracks open a black hole. Because he is destruction incarnate.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:05
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Onmi posted:If I may, the books (written by the staff) say that Etemon was a subsidiary of Vamdemon, and they all worked under the Dark Masters, who simply weren't active because they were busy sealing Azulongmon and the others. Apocalymon is just the Beast that lies beyond the Fire Wall who's mere interaction with the world in Etemon's pyramid cracks open a black hole. Because he is destruction incarnate. How much of those books has been translated, anyway? I remember hearing about them a little while back, and they sound really interesting, but I don't think they were far along in the least.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:15
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I don't know what books those were but they don't make any sense with what we actually see. Most of that is fine, except that Myotismon has no intention of working with or for anyone, and Etemon clearly doesn't either. Etemon has no place in the other villains plans or events, to the point where he does not even know who the Dark Masters are, and actively fights Puppetmon. More over, while season 2 shoe horned in Azulongmon, he clearly wasn't a thing in season 1 nor ever alluded to. He was added as part of the retcons after Adventure's story was completed for whatever reason. This is not saying Adventure 02's story is inferior, just that there were obvious and very plain retcons between the two. This isn't me discussing quality, just pointing out the naked truth. Tri superficially seems to be going more in the favor of Adventure's version of the Digital World, minus the likes of Azulongmon who really did not make any sense in the grand scheme of things. Though Tri is ALSO deviating from Adventure and throwing in things that have no context in either Adventure 01 OR 02s iteration of the Digital World, literally due to the trinary code, and in the active operations of Alphamon and certain others. ...man I really wish we could have the rest of the story. I am extremely curious where Tri is going with all of this.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:20
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Is it really a retcon when you're adding to a large, nebulous span of time that wasn't defined whatsoever beforehand?
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Sep 30, 2016 04:25
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TFRazorsaw posted:Is it really a retcon when you're adding to a large, nebulous span of time that wasn't defined whatsoever beforehand? It is when you're adding new functions to a world that was already pretty well established. If things like good Digi Gods were ever alluded to or made a point of, that'd be one thing. But no such things ever were. More over is how they're tied into the story, namely how the kids lost the power of their Crests, which was just a straight up retcon that makes no sense with how Adventure explained the power of their crests. IE that their crests are useless trinkets, placebos because the true power is those traits of themselves they represent and how they strengthen the bond with their Digimon. Why Tai was able to make an Agumon digivolve into a Greymon without even a Digivice when he was a child. 02 Retcons this as being an aspect of Azulongmon's power, or at least the key to freeing him and the other three, and he has to gift them it back later on...only for them to lose it again to give Davis a power up. (As well as changes it to some nebulous power that they CAN give up, and not a core aspect of their very character and being.) It's not worse, or bad. It's just very different. Tri is, again, going more in line with the original Adventure, and not even addressing the changes 02 made beyond the most superficial, like TK and Kari having D3s. It is also going in wildly different directions all its own, which are presented as plot points. Another fun one is how relatively easy it is to reach Mega level now, when in Adventure, 01 and 02, Mega Level was basically impossible to naturally achieve.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:31
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... That's not what happened. Like at all. The physical crests are what you described, glorified placebos, but the actual crests' power is inside them. This power is given up in the gulf between Adventure and 02 because the distortions weren't stopping. They release the power contained within themselves to stop the distortions with the dub saying this is to "seal the digital world off from evil." This keeps them from being able to use the crests to evolve their partners freely, with it apparently being returned after Oikawa heals the digital world after the events of 02's finale. That's why they can use it in "Diablomon Strikes Back" and Tri. What Qinglongmon gives them isn't crest power, it's a temporary substitute from one of the many Digi-Cores surrounding his body. This is actually derived from the expanded Bandai lore, in that each Holy Beast has multiple digi-cores that contain the power of a whole Digimon. The only connections the Holy Beasts have to the Crests is the fact they created the Digimentals BASED on the traits of the crests, with Armor Evolution itself being based on something only digimon descended from an ancient variety could do, so the new kids would be able to get around the evolution lock created by the Dark Towers. The Holy Beasts only have as much to do with the crests as Gennai and his group do. They've only made items based on that power or used their natural abilities to substitute them for a time.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:44
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also we have some preview images for the premiere tomorrow.      In addition, a few months ago, a magazine did an interview with the Applimonsters staff. Here's some of the bits on the main characters, which have got me interested: quote:- Haru, the protagonist of this series, while being a kind person, is introverted rather than being very active or outgoing. Do you think it makes him seem not very protagonist-like..? quote:- What is Haru's view and relationship with Gatchmon, his partner? quote:- What kind of combination will Haru and his partner Gatchmon turn out to be? They talk a lot about breaking conventions and doing things that aren't "digimon-like", but at the same time they seem to respect and understand the core of the franchise and its themes. Applimonsters seems like it'll be really different, but they at least seem to be aiming to get at what Digimon is at it's core. Of course, seeing these elements in operation is going to be the most important part, so we'll see if they pull it off starting tomorrow.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:10
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That digivice looks hideous and I don't really care much for this, but I hope it's good.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:12
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They're playing with it as more of a roleplaying and chip collection device this time than a quest one, so it's not really a "digivice" in the classic sense. Wonder why it's grayed out, at first.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:13
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Geostomp posted:I remember Apocalamon claimed to make the Dark Masters and possibly even Devimon. Of course, the goofy voice, terrible dub jokes, and fact that he really didn't get to do much on screen makes it a bit vague to me. the dub jokes are a treasure
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Sep 30, 2016 05:29
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Also, before we start, they've laid out how Appmon are different from Digimon. They have their own system that's different, like the Xros Wars digimon did, except that there's some form and logic to it. They're setting up Appmon as their own thing, so a lot of the system is different. Previous stuff already talked about how Appmon fuse to get new forms (like Jogress or DigiXros), but instead of levels, Appmon have "Grades". Said Grades are "Standard", "Super", "Ultimate", and "God", which are analogous to Child/Rookie, Adult/Champion, Perfect/Ultimate, and Ultimate/Mega in Digimon. Appmon have Attributes like Digimon do, but instead of the Vaccine-Data-Virus triangle, there are eight Appmon attributes: Social, Game, Tool, Entertainment, Life, System, Music, and Navi. Standard Appmon are the designs we've seen the most of. These are the Super forms for the main cast, DoGatchmon, Dosukomon, Mediamon, and Raidramon. As you can see, they're closest to Adults, but a little bit more deformed proportion wise:     since the demo version of the 3DS game came out, we've also seen their Ultimate forms, which I'm gonna put behind spoilers. They're pretty much in line with Perfects, though.     Globemon, Oujyamon, Entermon, and Revivemon They haven't shown any God Grade ones, yet. Anyway, yeah, this is kind of an infodump, but I figured it'd be good to get out there ahead of the premiere. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 05:35
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http://digitalscratch.pmsinfirm.org/?p=4125 The books are here, they cover to the end of the second volume which is until the children arrive in Tokyo (Vamdemon Part 1) A thing to understand is again, this was written by the show’s director, Hiroyuki Kakudou, and one of the screenwriters, Hiro Masaki. So I guess one interpretation of it is "What if we were less driven by even knowing if we were going to be doing Digimon past the current arc, also if we had a chance to compress things down. So things like "Taichi loses faith in himself due to accidentally forcing up Skull Greymon" is... just the running plot of the Etemon arc, and Taichi doesn't recover until he evolves to Metal Greymon to fight Etemon after Sora's been capture. Motivations are changed, and the fact that with Taichi out of the picture people are becoming lost and not really able to direct themselves about, it greater sells the whole "Taichi is the leader and necessary for the children to band together." It also changes a few things, like PicoDevimon stealing 5 of the crests and Sora stealing them back from him, and her being the one to return them to the other children. Etemon's distaste at being a regional commander for Vamdemon when Tailmon, who's only an Adult, is of a higher rank. Datamon doesn't bother with that Sora clone, he's just trying to see what's behind the Wall of Fire (It's Apocalymon, who promptly tears a hole in reality for the briefest of instants he gets to be there.) They are of course, of dubious canonicity, but it at least shows what the Director and one of the screen writers may have intended, that they either didn't have a chance to explore or simply didn't explore.
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Sep 30, 2016 09:11
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TFRazorsaw posted:... That's not what happened. Like at all. The physical crests are what you described, glorified placebos, but the actual crests' power is inside them. This power is given up in the gulf between Adventure and 02 because the distortions weren't stopping. They release the power contained within themselves to stop the distortions with the dub saying this is to "seal the digital world off from evil." This keeps them from being able to use the crests to evolve their partners freely, with it apparently being returned after Oikawa heals the digital world after the events of 02's finale. That's why they can use it in "Diablomon Strikes Back" and Tri. The fact that the distortions weren't stopping is a retcon because at the end of season 1, the entire Digital World was remade without Apocalymon's influence. It should have already been perfect. And the power wasn't a real tangible thing in Adventure unless focused through the Digivice. It was just their natural talents and inclinations. They couldn't DO anything with it like Ken was able to power his base with his crest and Egg. If they gave it up, we know what would have happened. Izzy gave up his curiosity and knowledge to Vademon and became utterly void of those. Tai would be a coward, Sora would become heartless, all that fun stuff. Kari would become goth which I would kill to see. Season 2 distanced itself from that idea and changed it around to them being less inherently part of the kids themselves and an actual super power they were bestowed or some how inherited that they COULD separate from themselves. And it had to, otherwise including TK and Kari at all would result in the DNA Digivolution being utterly pointless and never needing to be. Magna Angemon could solo drat near everything in Adventure 02, and what he alone couldn't handle he'd have Angewomon, the second most powerful Ultimate, for backup. The new kids would become entirely useless. And the expanded lore is kind of schizophrenic and doesn't really fit flush with any anime. Especially Adventure 01. Trying to include it will cause retcons to happen, which it did. Retcons are not, in and of themselves, bad. But they are real. Speaking of Onmi posted:http://digitalscratch.pmsinfirm.org/?p=4125 Okay see, now this is actually really cool. So this is less a "This is what REALLY happened in the show" and more of a "What If" kinda thing. What if we got to go more in depth with the story or got to do a second pass with all of the knowledge we have after the fact. I actually really like this and misunderstood what you meant originally. Kudos.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:47
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