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MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
And Michael York as well!

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Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Yeah, I kept thinking he reminded me of a young Ray Wise or something. The one-off actors they keep coming up with are something loving else. Talk about stage presence. That style of scenery-chewing would never fly in a modern series.

I know I'm nitpicking like hell here, but god drat, "his speech patterns are too contemporary, his vocabulary too modern"—yeah never mind that he's speaking loving English as we recognize it at all

Also where did the idea of Bedivere being Arthur's brother come from? I don't remember that in any of the versions I read.

Baka-nin
Jan 25, 2015

When I first watched that episode I was horrified with the idea that he was supposed to be legit ala Jack. I was also annoyed because they were going with the chivalrous order of knights version of the Arthurian legend and ignoring the far more interesting original Celtic folk tale versions. Seriously in the really old tales, Arthur hangs around with the now dispossessed Celtic Gods(because Wales was heavily Christian by that point, they no longer had jobs) and fights cat monsters, divine boars and Dog Heads, (yes dog heads).

I mean I liked Michael York in the episode but I was just waiting for the stupid tv show reveal that he was just another case of being unstuck in time. Thankfully it didn't go in that direction, and ended up being one of my favourite episodes. To take such an absurd premise and take it where it went with York walking the tightrope between tragic farce and camp lunacy was just incredible.

Data Graham posted:


I know I'm nitpicking like hell here, but god drat, "his speech patterns are too contemporary, his vocabulary too modern"—yeah never mind that he's speaking loving English as we recognize it at all

Also where did the idea of Bedivere being Arthur's brother come from? I don't remember that in any of the versions I read.


Yeah, that's what they meant by him speaking contemporary English. If Arthur was ever a real person who existed in history then English simply wouldn't have existed in any form while he would of been alive. He would of spoken very archaic Brythonic, (ye olde Welsh), or maybe some form of Latin because the name Arthur is almost certainly from the Roman Artorious.



Bedivere (or Bedwyr) was one of his earliest companions and so has had many different connections to Arthur in most versions of the tale. Some of which say he has family connections to Arthur, or he's related to Kay or Lucan who are sometimes brothers to Arthur, or foster brothers or blood brothers or so on. In some versions Arthur is so reliant and trusting of Bedivere their relationship was referred to as brotherly, so they didn't exactly make it up out of thin air. Though everyone else did so I wouldn't begrudge them doing it too.

Basically I think they just simplified the relationship so the episode wouldn't be bogged down in one version of the Arthurian legend that probably won't be familiar at all to the audience. I mean, would losing his one handed cup bearer carry the same weight, or the brother of his foster brother, or marshal of his table?

Even if you don't know anything about Arthur, the brother connection should tell you they were close

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

Party Plane Jones posted:

I'm rewatching the series and really, the only two absolute stinkers in the first season are Believers and TKO. And even TKO is only half the episode dealing with the martial arts crap, the stuff dealing with Ivanova sitting shiva is important to character development.

That's one pretty brilliant thing about the way the episodes are typically structured; even on those occasions when the A plot is a dud, the B plot usually has some good stuff going on.

DrBouvenstein
Feb 28, 2007

I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.
Drunk G'Kar is Best G'Kar.

"They were the bad guys, as you say, and we were the good guys!
And they made a very satisfying thump when they git the floor!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8OBQ-tHsY

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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"As my great-grandfather used to say, cool!" :buddy:

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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So yeah, "War Without End", that's one hell of a thing right there. :gowron: Dunno if I've ever enjoyed a space-time wedgie story quite so much. And the amount of satisfying S1 callbacks, jesus, nicely done.

I really enjoy Zathras, against all my instincts and initial reactions. It's a nice fresh take on the Gollum thing, dude's actually benevolent and insightful and helpful, he's just a loving weirdo. "At least there is symmetry! :haw: "

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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I also get the suspicion that JMS spent some time as a mechanic, or at least mechanically inclined at a hobbyist level. The episode with the restoration of the 90s motorcycle kind of spoke from the heart, as it were; and in this latest episode Zathras is looking through the tools, and he picks one up and goes "No... never use this." That made me snort, such a "things a callused grease monkey would say" sort of thing

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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Hahaha, Swedish Meatballs as the universal foodstuff. Would you like some jynnan tonnyx with that? :v:

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002

Every so often B5 takes a random page out of Douglas Adams' arsenal, and Swedish meatballs is one of those times. It happens just often enough that it isn't obnoxious, although I would love to hear Londo or G'Kar narrating the bit that in the beginning, God created the universe, and that this is widely regarded as a mistake and has made a lot of people very angry.

coyo7e
Aug 23, 2007

by zen death robot

Dirty posted:

Ron Thorton's ill :(

https://www.gofundme.com/2pbngrnc

We have him to think for all kinds of B5 CGI goodness.




This really makes me want to go re-install Escape Velocity with the full B5 quest and skin mods. :3:

shadow puppet of a posted:

The Walker Smith half of the TKO episode is fantastic. You've forgotten that wandering-outsider-combatant was a major category of film back then. B5 was artistically obligated to show deference to the genre. They did a great job, the space 90's costumes were great. Its also the Zima episode. Doubley so in the sense that its an acquired taste no lost to most audiences.
Those Smirnoff Ice things are pretty close to Zima but yeah, it was certainly unique.

Also never forget Bawls :911:

Nerdietalk
Dec 23, 2014

Its kind of weird how Londo was a mustache twirling villain for so long when his motivation is pretty drat reasonable. Sheridan even yells at him for being angry about having that Centauri emperor on board. How dare he be offended by the guy who allowed massive death and pain for his people?

The start of the Centauri/Narn war seems to have shifted the sympathy back to Londo though, so I can't complain

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

nerdman42 posted:

Its kind of weird how Londo was a mustache twirling villain for so long when his motivation is pretty drat reasonable. Sheridan even yells at him for being angry about having that Centauri emperor on board. How dare he be offended by the guy who allowed massive death and pain for his people?

The start of the Centauri/Narn war seems to have shifted the sympathy back to Londo though, so I can't complain

I'm pretty sure you meant G'Kar.

But not one hundred percent sure.

Nerdietalk
Dec 23, 2014

Oh, whoops. Yeah, G'Kar's who I meant.

Londo has the decency to feel bad about starting a war, but he's too obsessed with power to stop at any point.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


Londo did nothing wrong.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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That directorial flourish at the end of "No Hiding Place", with Refa running for his life in slow-mo while the baptist choir sings gospel in counterpoint, wow nice.

It was pretty rough by today's standards (the music was a pretty poor arrangement), but I feel like I just watched the seed being planted that would later grow into a hundred "cinematic" scenes in TV dramas from BSG to Breaking Bad.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





Data Graham posted:

I feel like I just watched the seed being planted that would later grow into a hundred "cinematic" scenes in TV dramas from BSG to Breaking Bad.

Babylon 5 is full of these seeds. It's part of what made it great in the 90s and keeps it great today.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Data Graham posted:

That directorial flourish at the end of "No Hiding Place", with Refa running for his life in slow-mo while the baptist choir sings gospel in counterpoint, wow nice.

It was pretty rough by today's standards (the music was a pretty poor arrangement), but I feel like I just watched the seed being planted that would later grow into a hundred "cinematic" scenes in TV dramas from BSG to Breaking Bad.

One of the best parts of B5.

I think the bit where the Londo hologram walks through or waves an arm through Refa was improvised by the actors.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



BTW "In the Beginning" was pretty good, particularly in seeing the actors all playing younger (and older) versions of themselves. Jurasik somehow made "young and bright-eyed" work, and Katsulas even more so (it seemed like he'd boned up on how he'd acted at the beginning of the show and was playing up being a higher-energy version of himself again). Even Ivanova I could buy as a teenager. Really neat stuff.

I feel like it was all kind of deflated at the end by the sudden injection of the Sinclair story, though. They had to put in a climactic scene for the battle in question, but they'd already covered the big dramatic reveals regarding that event in the show itself, so they couldn't just replay it all the same way, and centering it on Sinclair (who hadn't even been in the movie up till that point) felt like an out-of-body experience. A new viewer would have been totally lost as to who this guy was and, especially, why these seemingly huge pivotal moments surrounding him (e.g. "we have to ally with the humans, this guy is a huge deal, pull back") mostly take place off-screen. I don't know how they could have handled it better, though. They kind of wrote themselves into a corner there.


I really like the S4 titles sequence, though. Finally it's looking like a "real" show, plus the original theme music is back.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Data Graham posted:

BTW "In the Beginning" was pretty good, particularly in seeing the actors all playing younger (and older) versions of themselves. Jurasik somehow made "young and bright-eyed" work, and Katsulas even more so (it seemed like he'd boned up on how he'd acted at the beginning of the show and was playing up being a higher-energy version of himself again). Even Ivanova I could buy as a teenager. Really neat stuff.

I feel like it was all kind of deflated at the end by the sudden injection of the Sinclair story, though. They had to put in a climactic scene for the battle in question, but they'd already covered the big dramatic reveals regarding that event in the show itself, so they couldn't just replay it all the same way, and centering it on Sinclair (who hadn't even been in the movie up till that point) felt like an out-of-body experience. A new viewer would have been totally lost as to who this guy was and, especially, why these seemingly huge pivotal moments surrounding him (e.g. "we have to ally with the humans, this guy is a huge deal, pull back") mostly take place off-screen. I don't know how they could have handled it better, though. They kind of wrote themselves into a corner there.


I really like the S4 titles sequence, though. Finally it's looking like a "real" show, plus the original theme music is back.

Sinclair was unable to film so they used only footage already shot. They claimed he could not get there, but it might have more to do with his mental illness.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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Yeah I get that.

I'm saying they probably couldn't have done much differently, dramatically, even if he'd been able to. They'd have had to write him a much bigger part, or leave him out entirely, to make that segment work better for me.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

bobkatt013 posted:

Sinclair was unable to film so they used only footage already shot. They claimed he could not get there, but it might have more to do with his mental illness.

I imagine he was deteriorating at that point. O'Hare already seemed to be playing a completely different character in his appearances in The Coming of Shadows and especially War Without End. In the latter he seemed like he was doped to the gills on benzos or something.

Timby fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Oct 14, 2016

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Data Graham posted:

Yeah I get that.

I'm saying they probably couldn't have done much differently, dramatically, even if he'd been able to. They'd have had to write him a much bigger part, or leave him out entirely, to make that segment work better for me.

They might have made Sheridan have a lesser role and make Sinclair the focus character.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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quote:

Do you know that we assigned him one of our best pain technicians? They used to be called torturers. Ever since they got organized, it's "pain technicians".

The 90s were a magical time

Platonicsolid
Nov 17, 2008

Data Graham posted:

The 90s were a magical time

Wasn't until the 2000s they became "Enhanced Interrogators"

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008




There's always one bit about In the Beginning that confused me. That's when EarthGov are speaking to Londo (and presumably other races) about getting information on the Minbari. Londo seems to know a bit, and G'Kar knew enough to be able to act as a translator, but in all their information gathering nobody mentions the Warrior caste tradition of arming weapons that led to the war? I'm trying to remember, were the Minbari avoiding contact with other races at the time and the other races just kind of forgot about it? It just seems like if there was information for G'Kar to learn the language out there, you figure other things would be mentioned too.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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It's also pretty unclear how Dr. Franklin knew so much about Minbari physiology prior to the open-gunports incident; I thought that incident was their first contact.

The wiki says Franklin was off doing some personal mission, but none of that comes out in the show to date that I recall?

mojo1701a
Oct 9, 2008

Oh, yeah. Loud and clear. Emphasis on LOUD!
~ David Lee Roth

Data Graham posted:

I really like the S4 titles sequence, though. Finally it's looking like a "real" show, plus the original theme music is back.

Season 3's credits still make me think "Monday night NFL line-up!" All that's missing is listing everyone's stats where the credits are.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008




Data Graham posted:

It's also pretty unclear how Dr. Franklin knew so much about Minbari physiology prior to the open-gunports incident; I thought that incident was their first contact.

The wiki says Franklin was off doing some personal mission, but none of that comes out in the show to date that I recall?

From what I remember Franklin mentioned to Delenn in one episode about how he was on an alien transport that gave assistance to some Minbari and he treated them before Earthgov tried making first contact with them. And when Earthgov found out they wanted him to using his knowledge of Minbari physiology to come up with bio-weapon to be used against them in the war.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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That general that tried to pressure him was some kinda ca-razy actor. :monocle:

Lord_Of_Overstock
Sep 26, 2015
Starting my first rewatch since watching it about five years ago. Suddenly had the urge to watch through it again, and purchased the series through prime. I remember people saying the first rewatch is the best experience of Babylon 5. So far that is holding true ( on Soul Hunter).

It's a strange experience so far because it has been so long since I first watched it. I remember the broad strokes for sure, but the details are long gone. I'll also be watching the movies for the first time, so that should be interesting.

Got a staycation at the end of the month, should be able to get through a good chunk then.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Data Graham posted:

It's also pretty unclear how Dr. Franklin knew so much about Minbari physiology prior to the open-gunports incident; I thought that incident was their first contact.

The wiki says Franklin was off doing some personal mission, but none of that comes out in the show to date that I recall?

In the Beginning plays pretty fast and loose with some characters' backstories, notably Sheridan, Franklin and G'Kar.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



Oh hey Bryan Cranston :dance:





... :negative:

Nerdietalk
Dec 23, 2014

Finished season 2. Things are really amping up. Can't wait to see where season 3 takes things. But I have lots of thoughts!

1. G'Kar is slowly being driven into the dirt by the events around him and it's almost painful to watch. Dude keeps hoping and begging for help and Earth goes around and sides with the Centauri. I like that he's getting along better with Sheridan and co though, he even tried to speak in his defense before Ivanova talked him down. That's really sweet!

2. Londo seems to have inklings that he's made a mistake by this point. But he's also completely unwilling to back down. I think killing his friend in that duel to the death episode was a wake-up call he chose to ignore. Which is kind of Londo's MO really.

3. So is Night Watch Nazis? The first time they showed up I was puzzled by the vague "watch out for Suspicious Things and people saying Mean Words" and kind of forgot about it. I guess the euphemism went over my head, but the recent implications are pretty darn clear. For as goofy as this show can be, this whole part seems a lot more subtle than most Evil Groups I see in media.

4. Vir is radical and I hope he gets his wish.

5. Talia got pretty gay and now she's gone. :(

6. That Vorlun Angel thing is pretty shady right? Like a lot of people are amazed, but that's pretty creepy actually. I'm glad Sheridan said so, because now I know the writers are anticipating what I'm thinking. I could be wrong, but that seems like a red flag

7. Earth sucks, Babylon forever

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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For the Night Watch, think Stasi/"rat out your neighbors" a la eastern bloc. It becomes very clear.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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So that's ... S4E06, and the show's apparently over?


Gonna be a hell of a Scouring of the Shire coming up

Platonicsolid
Nov 17, 2008

Pretty much.

DrBouvenstein
Feb 28, 2007

I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.

Data Graham posted:

So that's ... S4E06, and the show's apparently over?


I mean...there's still the whole Earth Civil War thing going on...

BTW, if you want to, now would be the best time to watch the Thirdspace movie.

It's ok...I like it more than it deserves because I'm a sucker for

extra-dimensional/Lovecraftian "horrors." Also, that awkward elevator scene with Zack trying to hit on a telepathically possessed Lyta is hilarious.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

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I thought it might be, since the way this episode ends is like "TRIUMPHANT SPEECH OK ROLL CREDITS WE OUT".

I actually saw Thirdspace a long time ago, at its cast & crew premiere at a posh LA theater. I was seeing a guy who worked on the visual effects, and he told me a few interesting stories about stuff. I got to go as his guest and see a lot of the actors and bigshots in the audience. Also met JMS while he was shaking everyone's hands.

I didn't know much about the show and hadn't seen any of it at the time, so it was a little weird going in completely blind, but I thought it was a pretty fun story purely as a standalone.

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Dirty
Apr 8, 2003

Ceci n'est pas un fabricant de pates

Data Graham posted:

I was seeing a guy who worked on the visual effects, and he told me a few interesting stories about stuff.

Definitely not interested in hearing any of those. Nope. Not at all. ;)

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