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D1E
Nov 25, 2001


It's kind of crazy how active this thread is, especially given that there is no actual game and probably never will be.

I've been engrossed with the D&D USPOL thread because there's an actual unhinged sociopath with Narcissistic Personality Disorder running for President of the United States, and it's strange to me that many (American) goons care more about Star Citizen than that.

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Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004
Exciting Lemon

Quavers posted:

Still in the "Help me reason with a skeptical friend on SC" thread...

1 point: "Just the one point : When in the 4 year history of Star Citizen development has the actual delivered playable alpha been of lower visual quality than the demo's ? Answer - Never, the delivered quality has been better. Why is this even a question ?"

OP: The issue he has is not graphic quality, but gameplay -- saying its on rail and it will never happen like that...

4 points: Regarding the worm demo. IT HAD to be on "a rail" (scripted). How else could they have shown us what they intended for us to see, and show us how our adventures will be like?
Wait for a worm to appear for days? Wait for pirates to come from their patrols back to base? Of course it had to be scripted. But listen to what the devs are saying. When Subsumption is implemented, it won't be "on rails".

In the future, you will need to probably go on a worm safari. Have to track the beast for hours before finding it.
Perhaps you are after its saliva, its eggs,.. perhaps Banu think that grinding their shedded skin is some form of aphrodisiac or something,.. paying big bucks.

Try to look past the "canned" demo and into the possibilities. CIG is building gameplay systems like subsumption exactly because of this.

Just because it is not ready yet, should they have abandoned the homestead demo because of this? Of course not. They just showed us what it will be like. What they are working towards.

Star Citizen: Dream Without Rhythm and You Won't Attract the Sperg.

CHICKEN SHOES
Oct 4, 2002
Slippery Tilde
sometimes Chris Robert's dreams are better than the nightmare that is trump

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos

D1E posted:

It's kind of crazy how active this thread is, especially given that there is no actual game and probably never will be.

I've been engrossed with the D&D USPOL thread because there's an actual unhinged sociopath with Narcissistic Personality Disorder running for President of the United States, and it's strange to me that many (American) goons care more about Star Citizen than that.

I mainly hang out here these days because I like the people and company, every poster here is very special to me

MeLKoR
Dec 23, 2004

by FactsAreUseless

D1E posted:

It's kind of crazy how active this thread is, especially given that there is no actual game and probably never will be.

I've been engrossed with the D&D USPOL thread because there's an actual unhinged sociopath with Narcissistic Personality Disorder running for President of the United States, and it's strange to me that many (American) goons care more about Star Citizen than that.

By the time his presidency was over Chris would be working on 3rd barbed wire pipeline, he's objectively worse than Trump.

tuo
Jun 17, 2016

peter gabriel posted:

I like it to dip in and out of now and then in VR.
It doesn't grab me enough to play it often, some people play it daily and that's just not how I enjoy it. How I do enjoy it is a monthly session flying around exploring in VR with no set goals and just stopping if I see something cool or interesting.
That works for me as I don't burn out and generally Frontier have added something cool and new to do. I have a pimped Vulture and don't feel the need for much more tbh.

This. A well outfitted Vulture is drat fun to fly, and you won't have to grind hours upon hours to get it. My biggest fault with E:D at the beginning was that I wanted to get to the Anaconda as fast as possible, to the point I didn't even buy new ships to not loose the 10% when selling it again...this bored me to death. When Horizon came out and I realized I got it for free, I jumped back in and simply wanted to see some stuff. Having fun with it since then, especially in VR. And when it stops beeing fun, I simply play something else for some time, until I come back to E:D.

Just don't start the grind. It killed my motivation very quickly.

neonbregna
Aug 20, 2007

D1E posted:

It's kind of crazy how active this thread is, especially given that there is no actual game and probably never will be.


This thread is actually the game

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos

tuo posted:

This. A well outfitted Vulture is drat fun to fly, and you won't have to grind hours upon hours to get it. My biggest fault with E:D at the beginning was that I wanted to get to the Anaconda as fast as possible, to the point I didn't even buy new ships to not loose the 10% when selling it again...this bored me to death. When Horizon came out and I realized I got it for free, I jumped back in and simply wanted to see some stuff. Having fun with it since then, especially in VR. And when it stops beeing fun, I simply play something else for some time, until I come back to E:D.

Just don't start the grind. It killed my motivation very quickly.

The game is a billion times better than at launch isn't it though if you do want to save for something.
I see it as something that is always there if I need it. I think they are in this for the long haul and with suggestions of the FPS and using their crowd tech from that roller coaster game it looks like it'll end up being a huge behemoth of a game, it's just nice to have the galaxy there as I want it to gently caress around in.

It also makes SC completely redundant even before it had a chance, which is funny

Xaerael
Aug 25, 2010

Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

Marching Powder posted:

[in increasingly high pitched voice] He's melting down guy, guys, he's mad and melting down!

Inkel
Feb 19, 2004

College Slice

Quavers posted:

Still in the "Help me reason with a skeptical friend on SC" thread...

1 point: "Just the one point : When in the 4 year history of Star Citizen development has the actual delivered playable alpha been of lower visual quality than the demo's ? Answer - Never, the delivered quality has been better. Why is this even a question ?"

OP: The issue he has is not graphic quality, but gameplay -- saying its on rail and it will never happen like that...

4 points: Regarding the worm demo. IT HAD to be on "a rail" (scripted). How else could they have shown us what they intended for us to see, and show us how our adventures will be like?
Wait for a worm to appear for days? Wait for pirates to come from their patrols back to base? Of course it had to be scripted. But listen to what the devs are saying. When Subsumption is implemented, it won't be "on rails".

In the future, you will need to probably go on a worm safari. Have to track the beast for hours before finding it.
Perhaps you are after its saliva, its eggs,.. perhaps Banu think that grinding their shedded skin is some form of aphrodisiac or something,.. paying big bucks.

Try to look past the "canned" demo and into the possibilities. CIG is building gameplay systems like subsumption exactly because of this.

Just because it is not ready yet, should they have abandoned the homestead demo because of this? Of course not. They just showed us what it will be like. What they are working towards.

This small bit of ~dreams is more thought than Roberts ever put into having the sand worm in the demo. I love how they've clung to this sand worm as if it's ever going to appear in any form outside the hilariously broken demo.

Beexoffel
Oct 4, 2015

Herald of the Stimpire

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Dedicating my post to Beexoffel who couldn't be here today. Rip in Rip, buddy!

Thank you, friend.
The work meetings straddling 6000, are over. Five pages have been added to my catch-up list, now 55 long. And last week I had caught up with the thread :silent:

HycoCam
Jul 14, 2016

You should have backed Transverse!

D1E posted:

It's kind of crazy how active this thread is, especially given that there is no actual game and probably never will be.

I've been engrossed with the D&D USPOL thread because there's an actual unhinged sociopath with Narcissistic Personality Disorder running for President of the United States, and it's strange to me that many (American) goons care more about Star Citizen than that.

One of my family members gave money to Trump's campaign. I am trying to convince them the money would be better spent on Star Citizen or in a bonfire.

HycoCam
Jul 14, 2016

You should have backed Transverse!

MeLKoR posted:

I get it now. But CIG isn't working on any of that poo poo when they can't even get the AI to shoot at you.

Ummm--can you imagine the whining if the AI actually hit you? Pretty sure the AI is shooting exactly how it is supposed to. It is going to take you average Star Citizen a few clips to be able to hit a stationary target. There would just be tears if the AI actually hit them while trying to reload.

Xaerael
Aug 25, 2010

Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

HycoCam posted:

One of my family members gave money to Trump's campaign. I am trying to convince them the money would be better spent on Star Citizen or in a bonfire.

Oh man, now you've done it.

Phillip, Marching. Look at Phillip.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
I'm pretty sure like all things all their AI and animation problems are related to the fact that they hosed with CryEngine on such a core level that they're still not realizing the horror of the box in which they've tampered.

For example, AI has to "make decisions" by executing scripts based on triggers, but all of the AI is programmed to deal with 32 floating point precision values. The game is now feeding it 64 floating point precision values, which the AI has no idea how to handle. The triggers would then for example have the AI initiate a script or perform an action, but the scripts and actions are all assuming 32 point precision, so when the scripts execute and start interacting with the GPU and the rendering for the engine, they start getting wildly different values for their various steps, and that's why animations explode into masses of geometry - the animations are either truncating the 64 point values or only expecting 32 points and so they are no longer fluid.

Basically, the AI is completely broken in every way because they fundamentally changed the architecture of the engine in which the AI was designed to operate. Now they have to rewrite the AI from the bottom up to use the new engine environment, but they haven't or won't because they don't have anyone competent to write an AI, so instead they are trying to perform more alchemy on CryEngine's default AI to find every single instance where animations, scripts, triggers, etc. use any kind of floating point, and rewriting it entirely.

Because a lot of this stuff is not exactly just changing XML tables to say "hey use 64 floating points instead of 32 okay it's solved!!" it's not at all a trivial task, but Chris probably thinks it's a trivial task because the last time he was actually at all involved in this kind of thing was 16 years ago with the in-house built StarLancer engine, so he doesn't realize the complexity and involvement that goes into pre-built game engines like Unity or CryEngine or etc.

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004
Exciting Lemon

Pilz posted:

It's literally just a ship from Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn:



Welp. I stand corrected.

Good job CIG.

Xaerael
Aug 25, 2010

Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

INTRODUCING: THE STAR CITIZEN DESIGN STUDIO 2000!

Pilz
Jul 25, 2016
Grimey Drawer

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Welp. I stand corrected.

Good job CIG.

Full disclosure, think someone else had posted that originally when the ship was revealed. Don't want to steal no goon valor.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe
I feel like my previous cat picture didn't stand out in the rush to page 6000 enough so I think another tax is in order:

aleksendr
May 14, 2014

tuo posted:

IIRC Bethesda claimed to use a subsumption AI in TES. Basically, the NPCs have their own agenda for the day, and are able to react to each other when they meet. So someone who has the agenda to steal something and then runs into the arms of another NPC who happens to be police, the police NPC will react to the burglar by trying to catch him. Another NPC might have the agenda to buy bread, but cannot do it because the shop is closed and start bitching about that etc.

Basically trying to fake everyday life without giving it a hard script.

Of course this will work with SC, especially when 1000 NPCs stand in front of a door, waiting for it to work, because no one gave them an algorithm to react to broken doors.

They worked on Subsumption Ai since Oblivion, but all recent games shipped with a severly gutted version of it usually called "Radiant AI". As it turn out, if you give every NPC its own agenda and the mean to go about with it, the gameworld tend to erupt into complete chaos at random and usually prevent the players to find the NPC he want to accomplish anything, making for a below average game experience since all quests involving NPC turn into "find the fuckers" Bethesda dev reported during interviews that under "complete" AI, the city quest hubs would slowly empty themselves as NPC would murders each others over a broom or a piece of bread, closing quests to the player wihout him ever coming in contact with them. Nice in Ai research, but poo poo game design.

aleksendr fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Oct 17, 2016

Pilz
Jul 25, 2016
Grimey Drawer

orcane posted:

I feel like my previous cat picture didn't stand out in the rush to page 6000 enough so I think another tax is in order:



What are these fluff creatures

Xaerael
Aug 25, 2010

Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

aleksendr posted:

They worked on Subsumption Ai since Oblivion, but all recent games shipped with a severly gutted version of it (usually called "Radiant AI". As it turn out, if you give every NPC its own agenda and the mean to go about with it, the gameworld tend to erupt into complete chaos at random and usually prevent the players to find the NPC he want to accomplish anything, making for a below average game experience since all quests involving NPC turn into "find the fuckers" Bethesda dev reported during interviews that under "complete" AI, the city quest hubs would slowly empty themselves as NPC would murders each others over a broom or a piece of bread, closing quests to the player wihout him ever coming in contact with them. Nice in Ai research, but poo poo game design.

Oblivion AI was loving dreadful, and literally broke the game in several places if something went "wrong". I honestly hope Star Squadron Citizen 42 has a literal copy of that AI. The fury that will ensue because Bob the greengrocer, integral to random but critical fetchquest 834671876, has accidentally wandered into the wrong building and can't get out, thus causing the game to be impossible to complete without console cheats thus breaking ~~iMmErSiOn~~ will be loving glorious.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe

Pilz posted:

What are these fluff creatures

They're baby versions of this planet's ultimate cute animal: Red pandas.

Eldragon
Feb 22, 2003

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Ships in Elite have a function to their form. Weapon placement, internal geometries, cockpit placement, and so forth. They all have their interiors designed so that, eventually, players could supposedly walk through them. Obviously the style is a homage to the original low-poly game, but it's thematically consistent. In contrast Star Citizen is a mish-mash of ideas and concepts without any coherent sense of design or overall influence from the universe. There are no rules, in essence, deciding how ships should look because CIG is still figuring out what those rules are. That's why some ships look like space jets, others look like a reject from Star Wars, you have a literal space bike, and so forth. Both ships reflect the consistency and vision of their creators.

This is actually the one area I think CIG does a much better job than Elite. SC ships may look like a mish-mash of styles, but that is not only their goal, but also helps make the game visually appealing by giving many ships a unique profile. The one thing they do better than elite is overall ship design, and that very ship design is what allows them to sell ships for exorbitant prices.

""The secret of designing cartoon characters...is: you make a character that you can tell who it is in silhouette." -- Matt Groening

I think the exact same thing holds true to designing spaceships in a video game, because in the game the characters ARE the ships.

Compare that to Elite where every ship looks like a flying pizza slice. Elite ship design is actually more realistic, but I don't give a crap about that, I care about the aesthetics. Its also why I think House of a Dying Sun is a better game artistically than most previous space games.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe

Xaerael posted:

Oblivion AI was loving dreadful, and literally broke the game in several places if something went "wrong". I honestly hope Star Squadron Citizen 42 has a literal copy of that AI. The fury that will ensue because Bob the greengrocer, integral to random but critical fetchquest 834671876, has accidentally wandered into the wrong building and can't get out, thus causing the game to be impossible to complete without console cheats thus breaking ~~iMmErSiOn~~ will be loving glorious.

Oblivion was my first TES game and after that I couldn't imagine ever playing a Bethesda RPG on console, I had to fix so many quest bugs with the console, I even signed up to UESP to add a fix to one bug that basically killed your main story progress dead.

Fun times.

Tijuana Bibliophile
Dec 30, 2008

Scratchmo

Xaerael posted:

Oblivion AI was loving dreadful, and literally broke the game in several places if something went "wrong". I honestly hope Star Squadron Citizen 42 has a literal copy of that AI. The fury that will ensue because Bob the greengrocer, integral to random but critical fetchquest 834671876, has accidentally wandered into the wrong building and can't get out, thus causing the game to be impossible to complete without console cheats thus breaking ~~iMmErSiOn~~ will be loving glorious.

lol if you think CIG will ever re-enable the console

Chalks
Sep 30, 2009

Eldragon posted:

This is actually the one area I think CIG does a much better job than Elite. SC ships may look like a mish-mash of styles, but that is not only their goal, but also helps make the game visually appealing by giving many ships a unique profile. The one thing they do better than elite is overall ship design, and that very ship design is what allows them to sell ships for exorbitant prices.

""The secret of designing cartoon characters...is: you make a character that you can tell who it is in silhouette." -- Matt Groening

I think the exact same thing holds true to designing spaceships in a video game, because in the game the characters ARE the ships.

Compare that to Elite where every ship looks like a flying pizza slice. Elite ship design is actually more realistic, but I don't give a crap about that, I care about

They do have a bit of a wedge theme going on with a lot of them, several Elite ships break that mould:

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Eagle
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Orca
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Type-7_Transporter
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Courier
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Clipper

etc

Mikojan
May 12, 2010

Marching Powder posted:

[in increasingly high pitched voice] He's melting down guy, guys, he's mad and melting down!

Seriously, all you have to do is not reply to every single post calling you out. Even if its uncalled for or wrong, try being an adult and not loving butthurt about it 24/7

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe
Well they won't which will make it extra amazing.

But let's be real, if they ever get that far you probably get an /unstuck command that will reset you/your progress and send you back to your timeout room.

Tijuana Bibliophile
Dec 30, 2008

Scratchmo

orcane posted:

Well they won't which will make it extra amazing.

But let's be real, if they ever get that far you probably get an /unstuck command that will reset you/your progress and send you back to your timeout room.

They've already proactively enabled noclip which solves a lot of potential issues

Tijuana Bibliophile
Dec 30, 2008

Scratchmo
I can't wait for [blank] 2.0, that will solve everything

orcane
Jun 13, 2012

Fun Shoe

Yeah that's what I meant with they could use a slightly more distinct identity - the manufacturers have their own identity but the ones that build wedge-shaped ships outnumber the interesting ones by far. Faulcon DeLacy makes wedges, Zorgon Peterson makes slightly more triangular wedges, and half of Lakon's lineup is wedges - I can't blame people for claiming they all look similar. Core Dynamics, Saud Kruger and Gutamaya on the other hand are manufacturers which have a very distinct style (also in their cockpits) but there are only a handful of ships each and not a lot of people fly them because they're either pointless until next patch (yachts) or locked behind dumb rep grinds (faction ships).

thatguy
Feb 5, 2003
I've never seen any spaceship and been like wow cool that's very original and cool, wow. I don't really blame them for all looking the same.

thatguy
Feb 5, 2003

thatguy posted:

I've never seen any spaceship and been like wow cool that's very original and cool, wow. I don't really blame them for all looking the same.
I do find it funny when they try to fly a brick into the atmosphere of a planet and it turns on a dime though.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008



stop the fucking fight, cornerman, your dude is fucking done and is about to be killed.

Mikojan posted:

Seriously, all you have to do is not reply to every single post calling you out. Even if its uncalled for or wrong, try being an adult and not loving butthurt about it 24/7

there is not enough time in the day to respond to every post mentioning me, especially from xaerael. look at his post history (if there is something severely wrong with you), and count the amount of times he references me. not quotes, or interacts with me, just references me. i'd say there's at least 10 a page. it's cool that you think i'm legitimately angry though and not just toying with the retards.

tuo
Jun 17, 2016

peter gabriel posted:

The game is a billion times better than at launch isn't it though if you do want to save for something.
I see it as something that is always there if I need it. I think they are in this for the long haul and with suggestions of the FPS and using their crowd tech from that roller coaster game it looks like it'll end up being a huge behemoth of a game, it's just nice to have the galaxy there as I want it to gently caress around in.

It also makes SC completely redundant even before it had a chance, which is funny

Absolutely. When I got back to E:D, I couldn't actually believe I left it because I felt there is not enough to do besides the boring grind. So I am not even sure wether E:D was that boring and the patches in between (plus Horizon, plus Engineers) added so much, or I simply was too narrow-minded (gotta get that big ship, nothing else is important) at first.
At the moment, I don't actually run out of stuff to do first. And I didn't even really get into planetside stuff yet or the powerplay mechanic, currently just fiddling around with the engineers and new possibilities.

But I can totally understand why some people dislike it, it definitely ain't for everyone.

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Dr Sun Try posted:

Hypothesis: Star Citizen is not real

It's not a hypothesis if it's an a priori fact of life.

tuo
Jun 17, 2016

Xaerael posted:

Oblivion AI was loving dreadful, and literally broke the game in several places if something went "wrong". I honestly hope Star Squadron Citizen 42 has a literal copy of that AI. The fury that will ensue because Bob the greengrocer, integral to random but critical fetchquest 834671876, has accidentally wandered into the wrong building and can't get out, thus causing the game to be impossible to complete without console cheats thus breaking ~~iMmErSiOn~~ will be loving glorious.

All I seem to remember regarding Oblivion is that little fucker that followed you around after fighting in the arena. Seriously. I basically forgot about the rest of the game (apart from the opening which I had to play five or six times due to bugs), and only remember that completely hosed up visage of this creepy little poo poo following me around.

tuo
Jun 17, 2016

orcane posted:

Oblivion was my first TES game and after that I couldn't imagine ever playing a Bethesda RPG on console, I had to fix so many quest bugs with the console, I even signed up to UESP to add a fix to one bug that basically killed your main story progress dead.

Fun times.

I played Morrowind on XBOX because I got it cheap from some sale, and it blew me away. Can't say much about Oblivion (see post above), but even Skyrim didn't come close to the experience I had with Morrowind. Together with Neverwinter Nights, it's one of my all-time favourites.

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ripptide
Jul 28, 2016

I think that sort of highlights one of the major "design" philosophies with the games actually. Elite has, for the most part, ships which can do any of the jobs, to varying degrees of success. The Others, like the Type series, kind of break the mould as primarily transport or maybe mining, and the Imperials which just look different overall from the others. CIG seemed to start somewhat the same, but then they went hard into the dedicated purpose ship design. Judging from the number of times they've released something and then faced the screams from the backers about "but can it also do this or that", I'd suggest that they probably should have stayed with the original thought. Not to mention, it would have reduced their engineering debt significantly if they only had a few dedicated type ships, with the others having modules to allow different roles.


But then again, that would cut into their money.

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