Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Syrian Lannister
Aug 25, 2007

Oh, did I kill him too?
I've been a very busy little man.


Sugartime Jones

Babies Getting Rabies posted:

Oh man, I hate it when the glue fogs up the canopy on my Revell set, too

I used to use white glue

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010

I am stupid

Hexyflexy posted:

I'm half thinking that the major thing they nicked was the flight control software, so they had to make it in a rough facsimile to allow that to be useful. It's the only reason I can think of to make it that shape, as you'd have to if you were using "borrowed" code, rather than going for something more like a Typhoon if you were doing it from scratch.

Edit: This is what awesome engineering and flight control software can do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj8OJs6E3JM. Engine porn.

I very much doubt they would be able to re-use stolen flight control software. Besides which, the fly-by-wire software is not the hard part of the F-35 software development.

Similarities between the J-20 and other aircraft are more likely due to convergent evolution than anything else.

Preoptopus
Aug 25, 2008

âрø ÿþûþÑÂúø,
трø ÿþ трø ÿþûþÑÂúø
Its ugly.

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010

Mortabis posted:

I very much doubt they would be able to re-use stolen flight control software. Besides which, the fly-by-wire software is not the hard part of the F-35 software development.

Hard part? No because we solved the problem of electronically compensating for inherently unstable platforms in the 70's/80's (thanks in part to that Neil Armstrong guy again). Significant cost driver? You betcha.

Finger Prince
Jan 5, 2007


Canadians should thank the Chinese. They actually built a modern Avro Arrow.

E- maybe we'll buy some from them to protect their oil sands.

Dr_Strangelove
Dec 16, 2003

Mein Fuhrer! THEY WON!

Cat Mattress posted:

Hey at least the J-20 actually flies. And I'm sure the pilot is able to actually see through the canopy.

At least the canopy can close and not hit the pilot's helmet...

Babies Getting Rabies posted:

Oh man, I hate it when the glue fogs up the canopy on my Revell set, too

I bet theirs has a lot of fingerprints burned in, too.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

Syrian Lannister posted:

I used to use white glue

This is the smart method. Things they don't explain to kids: model glue actually melts the plastic to bond it, which makes for a super thin bond but fog the gently caress out of your plastic transparencies.

LostCosmonaut posted:

It also looks like it's got a datalink on it similar to the F-35;



A dumb question appropriate to this thread: when you say "datalink" what do you mean? Some sort of Fighter aircraft wifi that shares data between jets in flight?

xergm
Sep 8, 2009

The Moon is for Sissies!

Nebakenezzer posted:

A dumb question appropriate to this thread: when you say "datalink" what do you mean? Some sort of Fighter aircraft wifi that shares data between jets in flight?

Basically, it's an encrypted link that can carry all sorts of things. It's great for situational awareness, because a bunch of fighters can each share their radar picture with each other, and share targets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16

xergm fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Nov 2, 2016

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747
More specifically, something like MADL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Advanced_Data_Link

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010

xergm posted:

Basically, it's an encrypted link that can carry all sorts of things. It's great for situational awareness, because a bunch of fighters can each share their radar picture with each other, and share targets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16

Everything any nerd would ever want to know about link16:

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/DataLinkProcessingAndManagement/Documents/Understanding_Voice+Data_Link_Networking.pdf

Fun fact the link 16 specification clocks in at ~10k pages.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Babies Getting Rabies posted:

I can't find the sources right now, but I remember reading that it's quite possible that the J-20 is only optimized for stealth only from front. If I remember it correctly, the thinking goes that the thing is way too big anyway, so it'll likely be armed with anti-ship weapons and the idea is to be stealthy from the front while flying towards a carrier group, unload the missiles and then run away.

Of course, it could also just be China creating a fake stealth plane, because a super power should have a stealth plane so let's just build a plane that looks like it is

It's the size of an F-22.

Mortabis posted:

A better explanation would be that China would like to build a stealth fighter, but wasn't successful, and is unable to admit it due to a pathological need to save face.

That's actually my theory on the Pak-Fa, which I still think is a well-dressed Flanker.

Godholio fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Nov 3, 2016

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Murgos posted:

Fun fact the link 16 specification clocks in at ~10k pages.

How the gently caress is that possible, especially if it only supports 256 messages?

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless

PittTheElder posted:

How the gently caress is that possible, especially if it only supports 256 messages?

It basically specifies what every single bit means for every single message. It's not like it's 10k+ pages of unique content, a lot of it is very long technical tables.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

as a person who never leaves my house i've done pretty well for myself.
Government contractors are the worst. You have to specify everything or they’ll deliberately do the wrong thing and bill you to change it. You can’t leave anything to common sense.

Thomamelas
Mar 11, 2009

Platystemon posted:

Government contractors are the worst. You have to specify everything or they’ll deliberately do the wrong thing and bill you to change it. You can’t leave anything to common sense.

It's not unique to government contractors. There are reasons that Scope of Work documents are written.

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010

Platystemon posted:

Government contractors are the worst. You have to specify everything or they’ll deliberately do the wrong thing and bill you to change it. You can’t leave anything to common sense.

The thing about link 16 is that there are a lot of vendors from a lot of counties and all the radios have to talk to all the other radios. US Navy radios have to talk to RoK Army for example. Every implementation is different but they all need to interoperate so you get insanely detailed docs.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
The US alone probably uses over a dozen different types of terminal. And within that, different platforms have different needs/capabilities. You don't want to waste bandwidth by sending a poo poo-ton of messages to users that can't process or display them, so there's a billion layers of complexity. Honestly I'm kind of surprised that document isn't longer.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003






CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Nebakenezzer posted:

A dumb question appropriate to this thread: when you say "datalink" what do you mean? Some sort of Fighter aircraft wifi that shares data between jets in flight?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunctional_Information_Distribution_System

xergm
Sep 8, 2009

The Moon is for Sissies!

A little late to the party. :toot:

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

xergm posted:

A little late to the party. :toot:

Just now noticed. But you forgot MIDS JTRS/LVT :(

I mean, technically its the same thing, but I just wanted to be part of the party

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Nov 3, 2016

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010

CommieGIR posted:

Just now noticed. But you forgot MIDS JTRS/LVT :(

I mean, technically its the same thing, but I just wanted to be part of the party

Sort of the same thing but not? In that it inter-operates with L16 but is completely different internally.

I think MIDS and LVT refers to the host terminals you can connect to and that you can use it in a MID System, JTRS is that it's the SDR version of the radio developed that is compatible with the JTRS SCA Spec.

Yeah, it's alphabet soup. Cool system though.

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless
Yeah, MIDS is just a smaller JTIDS box, and JTRS is the next gen upgrade for it. It's all still under the umbrella of "Link 16 poo poo".

And you can only be part of the party if you're written into the network description document. :colbert:

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Wingnut Ninja posted:

And you can only be part of the party if you're written into the network description document. :colbert:

I just fix the things :smith:

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Wingnut Ninja posted:

Yeah, MIDS is just a smaller JTIDS box, and JTRS is the next gen upgrade for it. It's all still under the umbrella of "Link 16 poo poo".

And you can only be part of the party if you're written into the network description document. :colbert:

hosed up that JT101 wants me to know what model MIDS is in an F-16, like who fuckin cares.

spookykid
Apr 28, 2006
Meanwhile all the slow movers (cargo and rescue and helo's) get the very-derpy-but-kinda-cool SADL system, which is just re-purposed Army EPLRS, which can in some manner talk to all of the previously mentioned systems, with the addition of BFT and man-pack based SADL.

CarForumPoster
Jun 26, 2013

⚡POWER⚡

Wingnut Ninja posted:

Yeah, MIDS is just a smaller JTIDS box, and JTRS is the next gen upgrade for it. It's all still under the umbrella of "Link 16 poo poo".

And you can only be part of the party if you're written into the network description document. :colbert:

The DoD plan of airbourne communication:
MIDS LVT
MIDS JTRS
MIDS JTRS w/ special super good upgrade
MIDS JTRS w/ better than that upgrade because we already exceeded the thing we havent deployed yet
ad nauseum

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Dannywilson posted:

Meanwhile all the slow movers (cargo and rescue and helo's) get the very-derpy-but-kinda-cool SADL system, which is just re-purposed Army EPLRS, which can in some manner talk to all of the previously mentioned systems, with the addition of BFT and man-pack based SADL.

Ugh, even A-10s don't use SADL anymore. It can talk to Link-16 via a separate gateway, however. Older block F-16s had this too, but I think most/all of the gateways are gone since both these jets have moved on with their lives.

Cocoa Crispies
Jul 20, 2001

Vehicular Manslaughter!

Pillbug


:stonk: at the fragment that could've easily blasted through a passenger terminal

Psion
Dec 13, 2002

eVeN I KnOw wHaT CoRnEr gAs iS
The next time I see someone in games whining about wanting more "realism" in their flight simulator, I'm going to point them at this Link 16 discussion. :stare:

unless I forget, which I'd like to do. I don't even want to click on that billion-page long spec document.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Psion posted:

The next time I see someone in games whining about wanting more "realism" in their flight simulator, I'm going to point them at this Link 16 discussion. :stare:

unless I forget, which I'd like to do. I don't even want to click on that billion-page long spec document.

Flight Sim X: Wirebundle Troubleshooting and Aircraft Documentation Edition.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

CommieGIR posted:

Flight Sim X: Wirebundle Troubleshooting and Aircraft Documentation Edition.

You'll buy it when it goes on sale on steam, and never stop regretting it

xergm
Sep 8, 2009

The Moon is for Sissies!

Psion posted:

The next time I see someone in games whining about wanting more "realism" in their flight simulator, I'm going to point them at this Link 16 discussion. :stare:

unless I forget, which I'd like to do. I don't even want to click on that billion-page long spec document.

You have no idea. I think I picked up my study sim habit from my days at Boeing working on F/A-18 software.

Kind of makes me yearn for a sim with more up-to-date flight software. Super Hornets can do some cool things with situational awareness that's sorely lacking from any other sim I've seen.

On the other hand, it would almost be too easy to play Falcon BMS if you didn't have to ask the AWACS where poo poo was anymore. It would all appear right on the map from datalink.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
Except your terminal would be inop for at least 1/3 of your sorties, and the AWACS would be flying with the wrong crypto 1/4 of the rest.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Godholio posted:

Except your terminal would be inop for at least 1/3 of your sorties, and the AWACS would be flying with the wrong crypto 1/4 of the rest.

When red AEW loads blue crypto and net time, it's an interesting exercise.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Godholio posted:

Except your terminal would be inop for at least 1/3 of your sorties, and the AWACS would be flying with the wrong crypto 1/4 of the rest.

"We have to power cycle three times, once before take off. We wanted to call it a red ball, but we got it working. Never got good BLOS connection"

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

mlmp08 posted:

When red AEW loads blue crypto and net time, it's an interesting exercise.

:lol:

PhotoKirk
Jul 2, 2007

insert witty text here

Godholio posted:

Except your terminal would be inop for at least 1/3 of your sorties, and the AWACS would be flying with the wrong crypto 1/4 of the rest.

Also need a chance for a random compressor stall.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

When red AEW loads blue crypto and net time, it's an interesting exercise.
I'm sure that's never ever on purpose

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Saw it happen 2 days in a row from the E-2 crew. A bunch of red air being reported as blue until VID, red air deep in canyons getting eaten alive by intercept geometry that should have been impossible given line of sight, track downtell/cueing to give SAMs max kinematic range, EA and range RCS range limitations be damned.

On day 2 the exercise director at least made the reasonable call to tell the E-2 to turn off link-16 and do manual picture calls instead of creating this completely unrealistic scenario.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply