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Malek Deneith posted:So question to people commenting on Jupiter Hell - what is it about the teaser that you found displeasing. I have a bit of a contect with Kornel he was confused, wondering was it the style/cheesines of the trailer that you didn't like, or the artstyle of the game, or something else? He's really interested in input on that. Bad trailer overall. Bad voiceover/content of voiceover, butt ugly generic graphics, no gameplay to speak of. I have no fondness or attachment to DoomRL so this isn't fanboy reaction or anything.
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Nov 10, 2016 00:20
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It's infuriating to watch because doomrl was incredibly straightforward yet super fun game with lot of content game, and I know JH aims to be more of this with pretty graphics, but this teaser shows barely any game. On the rewatch I've noticed YOLO at the end, tell kornel to piss the gently caress off with this corny poo poo it's not 2012 anymore
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Nov 10, 2016 00:22
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Roguelike elements, procedural generation, and permadeath are fairly common in Kickstarters, and not in a good way. DoomRL made it work by being balanced, short, and easy to pick up while maintaining a high skill ceiling. "Fast and furious coffee-break Roguelike game" is a much more succinct tagline. DoomRL's retro theme worked because it didn't suffer from the need to be "ironic". It had quotes from the Doom comic and random anime poo poo and didn't feel ashamed about it or call itself retro. I don't understand why a turn-based grid roguelike is using 3d graphics, but that's unrelated to the trailer.
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Nov 10, 2016 02:47
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I hope he doesn't actually use that trailer for the kickstarter itself
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Nov 10, 2016 02:54
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Microcline posted:I don't understand why a turn-based grid roguelike is using 3d graphics, but that's unrelated to the trailer. Decent 3D graphics are generally cheaper than decent 2D graphics.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:10
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The JH trailer just feels like it's trying very hard to be edgy and in-your-face and I just don't think it works. Focus on the tactical depth and turn-based nature, since that actually sets it apart. If I hadn't played DoomRL I'd look at that trailer and assume it was a knockoff of Teleglitch or a roguelike version of Shadowgrounds.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:18
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Same. Would've assumed it was just another generic shooter if I didn't know about doomrl. Less in your face text about permadeath, more game play footage would go a long way.
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Nov 10, 2016 04:23
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It felt more intentionally cheesy and a little bit ironic to me than edgy. Unfortunately by doing so it limits its audience to people who probably already knew about the game.
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Nov 10, 2016 05:14
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Right, I'm passing the feedback back to Kornel, hopefuly it'll help him to improve things for the Kickstarter video. For what it's worth this is what I can say about the issues, based on my state of knowledge: - This was just a teaser, there will be another video for the Kickstarter itself. That one is planned to be much more serious and to show off more of the gameplay. - Yes it is roguelike, yes it is turn based. - Near as I know the trailer was intentionally cheesy because... well, Kornel feels that current "veteran roguelike player" fanbase has shrunk considerably and might not be enough to fund a project like this, so the teaser was made so that it could gather attention of wider audiences. Of course after hearing about negative reactions now he fears he might've gone too far and alienated the core audience. - As for showing off the turn based nature more - that was discussed yesterday actually and the issue is that there is no good way to emphasise "turn based". Moreso because Kornel and the team ended up making the gameplay animation a bit "too good, too smooth" to cite the man himself, so seen it action it flows to the point it might not look like it's turn based.
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Nov 10, 2016 05:19
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Malek Deneith posted:- Near as I know the trailer was intentionally cheesy because... well, Kornel feels that current "veteran roguelike player" fanbase has shrunk considerably and might not be enough to fund a project like this, so the teaser was made so that it could gather attention of wider audiences. Of course after hearing about negative reactions now he fears he might've gone too far and alienated the core audience. Well, the point that's already been raised in this thread is that the stuff he chose to emphasize (procgen and permadeath in particular) are pretty drat common in indie games, and procgen in particular is past the point where it's become a plus and is fast edging toward "ugh procgen? Welp that's a pass" territory, simply because so many games have done procgen really badly and lazily. Even if I knew nothing about roguelikes I would be wary about a game that hard sold procgen as one of the big draws. Same to a lesser extent with permadeath. Even back as far as when Binding of Isaac first hit a lot of the younger gamers had to be reintroduced to permadeath as a concept, but at this point I really don't think it's such a foreign thing that it bears repeating three times over in a trailer that's less than a minute long.
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Nov 10, 2016 07:02
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Roadie posted:I just want an Evil Genius spiritual sequel where you do base building, traps, and logistics instead of the focus on minion micromanagement that made War for the Overworld a lovely knockoff RTS and makes Rimworld's combat play like a (less lovely) mini-RTS. I love War for the Overworld, it fits that genre I'm talking about perfectly. It not being a huge success re-enforces why developers don't make that type of game. People will pay AAA prices twice a year for the same sports game, or they'll buy whatever is the latest of a hundred different FPSs'. Someone finally makes a base building game and the people who supposedly like that kind of thing complain.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:37
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Didn't War for the Overworld have some gameplay issues and lack of depth at launch they've spent a while rectifying? That might be a big part of it as well.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:39
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Not sure. I couldn't get it to run when it first launched.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:40
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One more thing regarding Jupiter Hell - Kornel asked me to pass on that he's streaming while coding, and welcomes anyone who'd want to come and discuss the teaser or ask questions about the game. The link is https://www.twitch.tv/epyoncf the official stream time is every Wednesday at 6pm UTC/10am PT/1pm ET, although there are also unscheduled streams (one is going on at time of this writing for example).
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Nov 10, 2016 15:58
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Megazver posted:Another project on Fig.co: [url=https://www.fig.co/campaigns/jazon-and-the-dead#about[/url]Jazon and the Dead[/url]. You can for yourself how fast or slow the combat is by downloading their preview demo.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:21
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AnonSpore posted:Well, the point that's already been raised in this thread is that the stuff he chose to emphasize (procgen and permadeath in particular) are pretty drat common in indie games, and procgen in particular is past the point where it's become a plus and is fast edging toward "ugh procgen? Welp that's a pass" territory, simply because so many games have done procgen really badly and lazily. Even if I knew nothing about roguelikes I would be wary about a game that hard sold procgen as one of the big draws. I agree, procgen and permadeath definitely aren't bullet points any more. I'd still mention permadeath in the description but procgen is definitely not a selling point. If you push procgen hard the feeling is the experience will be very random, uneven and bland.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:33
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Especially since No Man's Sky's extremely high profile failure came largely from the dev team hoping procgen would be enough to carry a game that had nothing else going for it, and it resulted in a game that was so random that everything was the same
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Nov 11, 2016 00:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbGDQt4GpMc&t=3007s "I don't wanna make another sequel after [Psychonauts 2] So no Brutal Legend 2.
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Nov 11, 2016 16:48
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Good news buckaroos, the Chuck Tingle kickstarter made its modest goal with five days to spare.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:12
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Microcline posted:I don't understand why a turn-based grid roguelike is using 3d graphics, but that's unrelated to the trailer. Pretty sure the answer is 99% 'ragdoll physics for corpses'
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Nov 11, 2016 20:48
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Also pretty lights.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:55
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senrath posted:Decent 3D graphics are generally cheaper than decent 2D graphics.
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Nov 12, 2016 14:02
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Cicero posted:Depends really. Hard to see a game like Shovel Knight looking equally good in 3D while spending less money/time.
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Nov 12, 2016 14:06
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Fine, Kero Blaster then. Making Kero Blaster look decent in 3D seems like it would take a lot more time.
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Nov 12, 2016 14:16
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Cicero posted:Fine, Kero Blaster then. Making Kero Blaster look decent in 3D seems like it would take a lot more time. My understanding from talking to game artists about it is that once you've got final designs 2D can be easier to do, but 3D is way easier to iterate on along with environments. If you're dealing with a lot of equippables or costumes, or have a lot of animations, I can't imagine 2D being easier.
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Nov 12, 2016 14:59
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For our current game Hastilude everything is 2D and yeah it takes a SHITLOAD of time. We're not doing pixel art so everything is native res 1080p with traditional animation. Every playable character ends up being something like 120-160 frames of animation which takes a long time to make.
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Nov 12, 2016 18:11
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Subjunctive posted:My understanding from talking to game artists about it is that once you've got final designs 2D can be easier to do, but 3D is way easier to iterate on along with environments. If you're dealing with a lot of equippables or costumes, or have a lot of animations, I can't imagine 2D being easier. Basically, 3D has a high start-up cost, but once you get that out of the way making more is cheap. 2D is the reverse: low start-up cost, but the price of adding more ramps up very quickly. After all, it's costly to make a good 3D model, but once you make it adding or changing animations is relatively cheap. Meanwhile you can get started with 2D as soon as your artist gets you a few sprites, but every single thing you want to change requires the artist draw a bunch of new sprites. Smooth 2D animation in high-res is expensive as hell, which is why hardly anyone does it.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:36
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Sometimes Kickstarter is weird. Dystopian sim Beholder, which hadn't managed to raise 4k out of its 25k ask, has been out for 2 days and is trending on Steamspy - sold 30k already, right between Owlboy and Dishonored 2. Faulty campaign maybe? Did they hire a PR firm? So weird. Good to see a happy ending.
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Nov 15, 2016 10:31
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Kickstarter burnout. I think we've entered a stage where, if you don't already have a fan-base, or some kind of a highly publicizable gimmick (Chuck Tingle's game), you won't collect poo poo.
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Nov 15, 2016 10:38
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I've also seen a few youtube LPers playing Beholder so that may have contributed to it trending. And yeah I am currently really burned out on Kickstarter/ crowdfunding. It's not so much the lack of a gimmick for me, as is that I can't honestly believe any hype around a campaign, when I've seen / backed so many of them that eventually delivered a mediocre product (very few exceptions here) or are still delayed and/or in development hell (for years now). And my criteria are more strict now, if despite the above a new project looks so good that I would considering backing it. Ie if they have backer-exclusive in-game content or pledge tier- exclusive content, or a lazy/ vague project description page, or no demo (especially when promising some really unique gameplay), I'm not likely to support that. I mean, people talk about Schaffer's big success on Kickstarter and subsequent failure to impress with the final product (...), but it's really a long list of lessons of disappointment, promises that the creators went back on, bad project management, using the Kickstarter for the wrong reasons (as pre-order outlet ) or the wrong way (ask for way less money than you need, and then pray), which all have (or must have) driven people away from crowdfunding. The paradigm of "freedom of creativity without the big bad publishers" failed so hard to be proven viable, for too many of these projects. Anyway, I'm venting frustration here, maybe partially because I just read the recent Hero U update. And while it is a good update, with interesting info about their status and puzzle design, they have yet again shifted their release estimate (and it still sounds shaky). They also mention a (possible) Hero U 2 in the future, so lol.
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Nov 15, 2016 12:15
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I'm burned out because I look at all the kickstarters I backed that seemed to be straight up scams and realized that there's nothing I can do about it. That made me cut down on my backing dramatically. I try not to go to kickstarter much anymore.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:03
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4-5 things I've backed have released recently and are actually pretty neat (with several more on deck soon), and overall as far as I can tell I've only been scammed twice in 40+projects I've backed. That said, there are definitely plenty of delays and communication issues all around. I don't particularly care about delays as long as creators are keeping people up to date but one recently took over two months to send out Steam keys to backers AFTER the game was available for general purchase. Easier to take two months to write an automated tool than have someone spend a couple hours sending out emails apparently 
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Nov 15, 2016 19:53
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Jupiter Hell, the sequel/successor to DoomRL is up. Haven't watched the trailer yet but I trust it's better than the one we saw earlier.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:55
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Kickstarter has turned from whatever greater, sort of beatific goals it once had (if ever) into an increasingly moneyed and corporate venture where now it's gone from crowdfunded patronage into an unsecured pre-order system. Professional scam artists like Schafer and Molyneaux have muddied the waters further with their crass manipulation of the system and for a good 90% or more of projects on there nowadays it's either not worth backing because the project will probably fail and you won't get your money back or it'll be funded with or without your help so why risk it in the first place. KS has lost whatever made it special or interesting in the first place and it's become yet another, fairly anti-consumer revenue stream, mostly for corporations who don't need the money anyways.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:23
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Kickstarter has turned from whatever greater, sort of beatific goals it once had (if ever) into an increasingly moneyed and corporate venture where now it's gone from crowdfunded patronage into an unsecured pre-order system. Professional scam artists like Schafer and Molyneaux have muddied the waters further with their crass manipulation of the system and for a good 90% or more of projects on there nowadays it's either not worth backing because the project will probably fail and you won't get your money back or it'll be funded with or without your help so why risk it in the first place. On the one hand, you're right. On the other hand, there still exist good projects: Harebrained studios and their Shadowrun games, plus their upcoming mecha game, the Dropsy guy and Hypnospace Outlaw, and (however naive I am to believe it) - the Jupiter Hell guy. The platform is not entirely lost, even if I'm no longer sure it can pull in enough money for the genuine projects that need the funding. (  Lonely Star)
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Nov 15, 2016 20:30
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Kickstarter has turned from whatever greater, sort of beatific goals it once had (if ever) into an increasingly moneyed and corporate venture where now it's gone from crowdfunded patronage into an unsecured pre-order system. Professional scam artists like Schafer and Molyneaux have muddied the waters further with their crass manipulation of the system and for a good 90% or more of projects on there nowadays it's either not worth backing because the project will probably fail and you won't get your money back or it'll be funded with or without your help so why risk it in the first place. ya if u a dumbass who supports stupid poo poo
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Nov 15, 2016 20:35
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Hat Thoughts posted:ya if u a dumbass who supports stupid poo poo it's all stupid poo poo
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Nov 15, 2016 21:37
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Levantine posted:it's all stupid poo poo No
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Nov 15, 2016 21:43
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Professional scam artists like Schafer Really, dude?
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Nov 15, 2016 21:47
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Scratch-O posted:Really, dude? I take it you have not been introduced to Toxx's gimmick yet.
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