|
Crimson posted:Isn't that just Canada though that has to pay full retail? I don't think that's the case everywhere. And I thought that wasn't even the case everywhere in Canada. Yeah I wouldn't pay $100 retail for any of those wines either, but at $50 and less I think they're drat good. Pretty much yeah. But the French classics I listed are too, and they're coming in at the same or less than the Californian options. I agree that $50 is much more reasonable, even if it's not how I'd personally spend that much on Californian wine. Edit: Other Californian wine being a more fair comparison than French Syrah, perhaps. Kasumeat fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Nov 7, 2016 |
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 23:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:32 |
|
|
I live alone (well, with a 9-year-old, but she doesn't drink her share), and I've been looking into half bottles as a better size for an evening. A friend told me, though, that wineries put their "worse stuff" in half-bottles, for reasons that were honestly not articulated very well. Is there any truth to that, or is it as silly as it sounds?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2016 02:43
|
|
|
There isn't any difference between Wine X in a half bottle and Wine X in a full bottle unless you're cellaring for long periods. Half bottles do tend to be more expensive per litre though, and there is drastically less selection. Most wines will keep well a day or two in the fridge if half full, so I'd just recommend saving what you don't drink for the next evening. You can even drink half the bottle and then put the remainder into an empty half bottle and if it's nearly full and in the fridge, it'll keep for up to a week.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2016 04:58
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:I live alone (well, with a 9-year-old, but she doesn't drink her share), and I've been looking into half bottles as a better size for an evening. A friend told me, though, that wineries put their "worse stuff" in half-bottles, for reasons that were honestly not articulated very well. Making (and selling) .375s is a pain in the rear end. You don't bother for your high end stuff, just the big blends. Purchasing dry goods to bottle .375s (glass, cork, labels, etc.) cost pretty much the same per bottle, and sales folks have difficulty with 9l equivalents. That said, the wine that goes into .375s is coming from the same tank(s) as .750s, 1.5s, 3s, 6s, etc.. Who gives a poo poo anyway, as with all things wine, trust your palette above all else. Do you like what's coming out of the .375s? If so keep buying them, but know that buying .750s will save you money and give you a much bigger world to explore.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2016 06:18
|
|
|
High end Rieslings are often in .375, in case you're not watching your sugar intake. Bordeaux used to be common in half bottles, but doesn't seem to anymore. Chateau Musar, the Lebanese cult wine, is still produced in half bottles I think. A simpler solution: drink half the bottle, put a stopper in it, put the bottle in the fridge. See if this works out. Best case you get a soft oxygen exposure and a slightly different wine, worst case you get a good reason to invest in a vacuum wine stopper. For the most part, a wine in the fridge with a cork in it will keep well. But I did experience a 1er cru Burg die over night once, that sucked.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2016 10:25
|
|
|
I think only older wines and wines that have already had a suspect exposure to oxygen before opening really have any chance of dying overnight. An overwhelming number get better with 24 hours of air, even outside of refrigeration. Or at least that's my experience.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
Loire Valley trip was a success! I did a mix of more tourist oriented stops and ones recommended by wine aficionados. Caves Louis de Grenelle in Saumur La Cabane à vin in Chinon (tried some Baudry but I bought some other Chinon I found a bit lighter, forgot which) Pierre et Bertrand Couly in Chinon Vignoble Alain Robert in Chançay (lady does a really nice paid tour with food and a broad wine tasting, my wife really appreciated it) La Cave Insolite Domaine François Chidaine in Montlouis sur Loire Packed as much stuff into 3 days as I could and still see some other cool stuff like Château de Chenonceau. I did not actually drink or buy any Gamay like I had posted about but I did learn about Pineau d'Aunis, more obscure red Loire grape. Chidaine was maybe most impressive, I only managed to visit their shop and not one of their wineries. Chidaine has a still red that is Cab Franc-Malbec (Côt)-Pineau d'Aunis, tasted great for sure. I wish I could buy cheap Vouvray Brut at the convenience store at home like I did in Tours. Of course it tasted great, drank it right away in the hotel room. I ended up buying half sparkling, half still, 12 bottles. Some Touraine Sauv Blancs, plenty of Cab Franc. I bought 1 bottle of all Pinot grower Champagne in Paris too. Some Crémant d'Alsace at a grocery store in Normandy because why not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
Ola posted:Chateau Musar, the Lebanese cult wine, is still produced in half bottles I think. If you can drink just a half bottle of Chateau Musar, that is... man I loving love that wine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2016 06:58
|
|
|
Comb Your Beard posted:Loire Valley trip Followup post: are there any new world producers of Cab Franc similar to Chinon? I know some Cab Franc is grown in California. Just looking to branch out and try different styles. Chinon was something that really resonated with me. Related edit: I noticed a ton of Saumur-Champigny on humble wine lists in Paris. I wish it would become trendy like Beaujolais in America. Nice stuff. Comb Your Beard fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 14, 2016 13:31
|
|
|
Not many, and I can't think of a single example that's widely available. Jamsheed's & Pryamid Valley's Cab Franc is pretty good though both are certainly a little more New World styled than Chinon, although not to the point you might expect from their respective countries. Norman Hardie and Pearl Morissette are two Ontario producers making Cab Franc to rival the best of France but don't export much.
|
|
#
?
Nov 14, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
Comb Your Beard posted:Followup post: are there any new world producers of Cab Franc similar to Chinon? I know some Cab Franc is grown in California. Just looking to branch out and try different styles. Chinon was something that really resonated with me. Just poured at an event this weekend with Chad Hinds of Methode Sauvage. Teeny tiny production but he does some really cool Cab francs from Russian River and Santa Cruz that might get a little close. You're never going to get away from ripe Cali fruit, but they're really nicely balanced and show off the herbaceous side of the grape, too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 05:22
|
|
|
Comb Your Beard posted:Followup post: are there any new world producers of Cab Franc similar to Chinon? I know some Cab Franc is grown in California. Just looking to branch out and try different styles. Chinon was something that really resonated with me. Broc Cellars Cab Franc comes to mind. Low alcohol. Lively. No real subsitute for a well-made Chinon I suppose though. Thierry Germain Saumur-Champigny is a great example of well-priced wines from that region. Domaine Roches Neuves is what it's bottled as. 4 or 5 separate wines from them. LOLbertsons fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Nov 17, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 02:54
|
|
|
idiotsavant posted:California Bay Area! Do you have pms? Just released some of my 14s! Will have PM's now. Let's talk!
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2016 02:57
|
|
|
Having my first Cornelissen with a (little) bit of age, the Contadino 10 (which is from 2012). First impressions: A fire in a wood built nail varnish factory has successfully been extinguished by the incredible cooperation between the Kool-Aid guy and Old Faithful.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2016 00:19
|
|
|
So you'd prefer a little more fruit?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2016 00:27
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:So you'd prefer a little more fruit? Not sure what I would prefer instead of it. Like all Cornelissen I've had, I'm glad to experience it but perhaps relieved it isn't the only thing around. It's coming around nicely with air, sulphur and nail varnish is gone, a bit of smokiness remains (there was a fuckload to begin with) along with black/purple fruit and the signature minerality. If minerality is even what it is, maybe it's the smallest CO2-bubbles in wine history, "porous tannins" or just volcanic magic. It might very well be CO2 or some other yeast metabolite, because there are definitely lees in the bottom after decanting. Let no man say it hasn't got character. In other news, the wine shop I bought it in had a great choice of Musar:  2009, 2005 and 1982. I haven't tasted the latter, I really want to, but it's $175...maybe I could go a winter without electricity?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2016 01:22
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:So you'd prefer a little more fruit? He came through SF a year or so ago and I asked how the vineyards themselves affected his winemaking - how those particular grapes and that particular place led into his basic winemaking decisions - and the first thing he responded with was, "I want to eliminate fruit entirely."
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2016 17:35
|
|
|
Yes, making fruit juice that doesn't taste at all like fruit is certainly "naturalistic".
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2016 17:42
|
|
|
Overwined posted:Yes, making fruit juice that doesn't taste at all like fruit is certainly "naturalistic". Eh, I put it in the world of Coturri and such - I respect them, and don't mind the talk, because they really walk the walk. And that really isn't easy if you want to make (and more to the point sell) hardcore "natural" wine. edit: it's also one of the things I dislike about many natural wines... in some ways, I feel the characteristics (some might say flaws and not be wrong) of many natural wines end up showing the hand of the winemaker rather than the grapes much in the same way that new oak or carbonic fermentation do. A 00 wine with VA to the point of being acetic is more about the winemaking than the terroir to me. Though in Frank's case it might be more "We had to burn the village to save the village." idiotsavant fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Nov 20, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2016 21:01
|
|
|
idiotsavant posted:edit: it's also one of the things I dislike about many natural wines... in some ways, I feel the characteristics (some might say flaws and not be wrong) of many natural wines end up showing the hand of the winemaker rather than the grapes much in the same way that new oak or carbonic fermentation do. A 00 wine with VA to the point of being acetic is more about the winemaking than the terroir to me. Though in Frank's case it might be more "We had to burn the village to save the village." This is definitely true. I have a friend who really likes natural wine and really likes blinding people on said natural wines. Nobody ever gets them because they all taste like a cranberry shrub in a horse's rear end and are 12% regardless of where they're from, because even if they're not cool climate, their winemaker in Campo de Borjo or whatever decided to pick in early June. They're no more expressive of place than ultra modern reds which taste equally alike.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2016 22:35
|
|
|
The whole natural movement is pretty suspect. There is absolutely no way to remove the winemakers decisions from the wine itself. You grew this specific grape in this place with x amount of watering and decided to pick the grape on day whatever and do some huge number of things to it and blend it with who knows what in some unknown proportions and age it for this long in that type of container and now it tastes like rear end. Congratulations! You made lovely wine, the grape varietal and the terrain had almost nothing to do with it. Heaven forbid you do everything 'natural' and the wine comes out tasting like a Robert Parker 97 point fruit bomb. You'd be laughed out of the movement.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2016 19:50
|
|
|
Murgos posted:You grew this specific grape in this place with x amount of watering and decided to pick the grape on day whatever and do some huge number of things to it and blend it with who knows what in some unknown proportions and age it for this long in that type of container and now it tastes like rear end. Congratulations! You made lovely wine, the grape varietal and the terrain had almost nothing to do with it. Yeah that's kind of sort of exactly what the natural wine movement isn't about. Amphorae and oxidation aside, the idea is to NOT do a huge number of unknown things to it, let alone to aim for a 97-point Parker wine. I'm not sure why this comes across as threatening and controversial to people, especially considering how small "natural wine" is, but whatever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2016 22:11
|
|
|
I suspect the reason it comes across as threatening is that most wine consumers uneducated opinion of how wine is made is that it's all made in a more or less natural style. I distinctly remember showing a regular wine drinker the back of a Ridge bottle and getting a reaction something like "what the gently caress is pumping over, why are they doing all this to my wine?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2016 22:50
|
|
|
Murgos posted:The whole natural movement is pretty suspect. There is absolutely no way to remove the winemakers decisions from the wine itself. I agree to some extent, as I think it's ridiculous to sell heavily flawed wine under the pretenses that all that spoilage yeast and bacteria is cool and good because it's "natural". That being said, skilled winemakers who know how to keep their cellars clean and control for spoilage through natural means can turn out some amazing wine. Natural wine is just a roller coaster of highs and lows, as can be expected. Like idiotsavant said, there's really no reason to be mad at it. Just don't drink it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2016 22:53
|
|
|
pork never goes bad posted:I suspect the reason it comes across as threatening is that most wine consumers uneducated opinion of how wine is made is that it's all made in a more or less natural style. I distinctly remember showing a regular wine drinker the back of a Ridge bottle and getting a reaction something like "what the gently caress is pumping over, why are they doing all this to my wine?" I mean, pumping over is pretty drat benign on the order of things - you have to wet down the cap somehow. When you get really conventional it's more on the order of 1) killing everything in the vineyards that isn't grapes or grapevines 2) trying to kill everything in the grapes that isn't your inoculated yeast strain in the winery 3) adding yeast nutrients, acidifying the must, possibly watering back, maybe adding enzymes or other lab chemicals to promote certain fermentation profiles, maybe doing a little RO to pull out excess alcohol if you didn't water back, fining with any number of products, killing everything that you can in the finished wine with velcorin or other lab products, and then sterile filtering the gently caress out of the wine so it can sit on a supermarket shelf at 80 degrees and not go bad. And the thing is, that isn't necessarily wrong to do if your goal is to make a $9 bottle of California supermarket Syrah, or even if your goal is to make your $900 bottle of 97-point Parker juice that has to nail a certain profile every year. It is what it is, and there's plenty of room for all of us out there.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2016 23:34
|
|
|
idiotsavant posted:Yeah that's kind of sort of exactly what the natural wine movement isn't about. Amphorae and oxidation aside, the idea is to NOT do a huge number of unknown things to it, let alone to aim for a 97-point Parker wine. I'm not sure why this comes across as threatening and controversial to people, especially considering how small "natural wine" is, but whatever. Sorry, but I think you are deliberately missing the point of why I was using vague terms. The point is that everything that is, or is not, done during the wine making process is a conscious decision and nature plays almost no part in it. I've made wine in a bathtub. That's about as natural as it gets but no one is shilling that as the epitome of the natural wine movement.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 01:11
|
|
|
idiotsavant posted:I mean, pumping over is pretty drat benign on the order of things - you have to wet down the cap somehow. That's exactly my point - even "benign" interventions often seem unnecessary or unnatural to wine consumers. Not that this is a reason to drink or make natural wine, but it's obvious to me how the natural wine movement is commercially threatening to industrial growers despite being a small slice of the market.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 02:43
|
|
|
The idea of moving away from pesticides, monocultures, unsustainability, MegaPurple, etc. is great and absolutely consumers should be aware that these are the norm for Conventional wines. But what bothers me most is that the natural wine movement has attracted a new generation of zealots who think that adding a little sulfur to your wine somehow undoes all the other good things you've been doing. Their parents are the old version of Wine Snobs, so they've had to find a new way to be assholes. Somewhat relevant personal anecdote: I once brought a bottle of Rijckaert Puligny Montrachet to share with some wine people. One of them, a former somm who reps a very natural local winery, tasted it and went on about how it was "this modern reductive style; picked for trendy high acid levels and not when phenolically ripe; Leflaive and this imitator is not making real Burgundy; they are just commercial mass-market businessmen" For those unfamiliar with Rijckaert, their style would best be described as late-harvest, ripe, & slightly-oxidative. Nicolas Joly-esque. But because the wine was sound, apparently it was basically Gallo White Burgundy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 04:36
|
|
|
I think this argument has a bit of hyperbole on both sides. I was merely pointing out that you can't say "gently caress fruit" and pretend to be a "naturalistic" winemaker. For the record I think I get the idea, but prefer the "non-interventionalist" moniker because it implies that winemaker is still guiding the fruit towards what it wants to be and doesn't pretend to eliminate the winemaker's hand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 04:52
|
|
|
On a different note, I visited the Arcadian winery in Lompoc yesterday and Joe Davis' wines are some of the best representations of old world Pinot noir & Chardonnay outside of Burgundy. Highlights were the 09 Sierra Madre that had a Chambolle-Musigny soft fruit quality to it and the 00 Sleepy Hollow Chard. Also enjoyed the 01 Sleepy Hollow Pinot, while the 00 Pisoni still had a fair amount of tannins.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 04:57
|
|
|
Are any of you familiar with the wines of Marchand-Tawse? What's your opinion? Edit: This is unrelated to natural wine discussion. Kasumeat fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Nov 22, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 05:54
|
|
|
Murgos posted:Sorry, but I think you are deliberately missing the point of why I was using vague terms. The point is that everything that is, or is not, done during the wine making process is a conscious decision and nature plays almost no part in it. Also, "nature plays almost no part in it"? Get off your high horse, dude. Pasteur didn't invent yeasts in the lab. Cabernet sauvignon isn't a Monsanto product. The sword cuts both ways. Overwined posted:I think this argument has a bit of hyperbole on both sides. I was merely pointing out that you can't say "gently caress fruit" and pretend to be a "naturalistic" winemaker. For the record I think I get the idea, but prefer the "non-interventionalist" moniker because it implies that winemaker is still guiding the fruit towards what it wants to be and doesn't pretend to eliminate the winemaker's hand. Also I've been sticking to "minimal intervention" as well just because it's way easier to define and much more accurate than the shitshow argument that "natural wine" inevitably leads to. I just wish there was a better term than "native yeasts" or "wild yeasts" or "spontaneous fermentation" because they're all crap, and "not inoculated" almost always requires some kind of description.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 08:39
|
|
|
Just call it a natural fermentation. Go on, you know you want to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2016 17:17
|
|
|
Chablis and Cumin pair so freaking well
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2016 00:59
|
|
|
Ominous Balls posted:Will have PM's now. Let's talk! Sent a message. My 2016 Albariño is loving awesome. Salty and mineral, but still has some gushy fruit to it. It's a total easy drinker but there's enough of a core behind it to make things interesting. I'm drinking it right now out of a 1L flip-top bottle I pulled straight from the barrel and it's goddamn delicious. It's totally unfined and murky but I still want to bottle and release it asap. It's a wine I want to drink out of growlers. I''m really, really excited about it - fingers crossed that I don't mess it up somehow 
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2016 03:42
|
|
|
idiotsavant posted:Sent a message. Mind mentioning where you sell in the Bay area; would definitely buy some bottles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 01:02
|
|
|
idiotsavant posted:Sent a message. This sounds like something I need in my east coast life. I've been on a huge Albariño kick, always hunting for more of that mineral taste.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 01:31
|
|
|
Reading up a bit, Albariño sounds pretty interesting. Anyone have a recommendation of the set I can get my hands on? http://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/search?searchTerm=albarino
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 02:02
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:Reading up a bit, Albariño sounds pretty interesting. Anyone have a recommendation of the set I can get my hands on? Don't forget to search for Alvarinho, as the grape is called in Portugal, and for Rias Baixas, the region where you'll find the grape but not all will be labeled varietally. The best example I've had in Ontario is neither available at the LCBO nor 100% Albarino, but the Terras Gauda O Rosal is available BTG at Bar Isabel and it's excellent. Almost Condrieu-like aromatics but without the gross oiliness of Viognier. This isn't quite as good but it's the best example on shelves I've tried.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 04:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:32 |
|
|
beefnchedda posted:Mind mentioning where you sell in the Bay area; would definitely buy some bottles. Pm sent Sextro posted:This sounds like something I need in my east coast life. I've been on a huge Albariño kick, always hunting for more of that mineral taste.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 08:53
|
|