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ManOfTheYear posted:Do you guys do any conditioning for grappling? 6 minute rolling sessions destroy me and no-gi stuff is so explosive I'm short of breath after few minutes. Wondering if there are any effective routiunes i could do when I'm not able to go to grappling/bjj. For some reason gi stuff is much easier fitness-wise. Do more grappling.
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Nov 29, 2016 17:36
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ManOfTheYear posted:Do you guys do any conditioning for grappling? 6 minute rolling sessions destroy me and no-gi stuff is so explosive I'm short of breath after few minutes. Wondering if there are any effective routiunes i could do when I'm not able to go to grappling/bjj. For some reason gi stuff is much easier fitness-wise. kinda no kinda yes. Any HIIT type stuff works. Kettlebells are decent too. But really, it's less your raw conditioning and more getting the body accustomed to the movements. Like swinging a golf club or learning to swim. And the only way to do that is: hi liter posted:Do more grappling.
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Nov 29, 2016 17:44
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hi liter posted:Do more grappling. That's not 100% true. I can roll for 10 minutes straight without getting tired, but my cardio is pretty poor right now outside of that, so if someone really pushes the pace on me and makes me work, I start to suffer.
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Nov 29, 2016 18:34
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Don't get how it's not true
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Nov 29, 2016 18:42
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ICHIBAHN posted:Don't get how it's not true More grappling doesn't so much improve your cardio capacity as it reduces the amount of energy needed to grapple at your favoured pace. To do actual cardio work on top of that will have an added effect. So it's true in that it will help you grapple longer without getting tired, but it's not true in that more grappling will not do much to help recovery or lung capacity and the like as much as adding a bit of HIIT to your weekly routine.
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Nov 29, 2016 18:44
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I hit a wall just sparring and drilling classes, but could take on way more rounds with just a tiny modicum of running. Does that go with or against the "do more of the same" for grappling?
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Nov 29, 2016 18:51
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CommonShore posted:I can roll for 10 minutes straight without getting tired, but my cardio is pretty poor right now outside of that, so if someone really pushes the pace on me and makes me work, I start to suffer. That's because they are better than you. Grappling is cardio work. Failure and losing in practice is not a big deal, it is in face the point of practice. Or you can try not working as hard or not practicing more and seeing what your results are.
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Nov 29, 2016 18:54
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kimbo305 posted:I hit a wall just sparring and drilling classes, but could take on way more rounds with just a tiny modicum of running. Does that go with or against the "do more of the same" for grappling? What you're doing is basically what I'm arguing for, and I guess I'm against "do more of the same." hi liter posted:That's because they are better than you. Grappling is cardio work. Failure and losing in practice is not a big deal, it is in face the point of practice. You're also not considering that some (most) people have physical limitations on the amount of hard grappling/sparring that they can do. I can't go hard very often, because I'm older, and I don't recover in the same ways that younger people do. I'm also smaller, so I get injured at a higher rate than the big guys. I'm already on the mats 6-8 hours per week at an intensity that I have identified as my body's safe limit. If I increase it, I'll simply find myself having to skip practices to heal. You'd never see a (good) boxing/mma coach say something like "running is for idiots, just go spar more," because that's how fighters get injured. Why is it different for grappling?
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Nov 29, 2016 19:13
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I'll put my vote in for team cross-train. Especially rowing on the erg or (high resistance) interval training on an elliptical. I've found that they carry over quite well to grappling and are very easy on the body.
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Nov 29, 2016 19:36
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No one ever saw Rocky working his cardio by sparring his way up those god drat steps.
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Nov 29, 2016 22:37
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Bangkero posted:No one ever saw Rocky working his cardio by sparring his way up those god drat steps. Yep, running does not increase punching power, just another hollywood myth about boxing
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Nov 29, 2016 22:42
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CommonShore posted:You're also not considering that some (most) people have physical limitations on the amount of hard grappling/sparring that they can do. I can't go hard very often, because I'm older, and I don't recover in the same ways that younger people do. I'm also smaller, so I get injured at a higher rate than the big guys. I'm already on the mats 6-8 hours per week at an intensity that I have identified as my body's safe limit. If I increase it, I'll simply find myself having to skip practices to heal. No amount of extra conditioning will make you younger or more limber. If you're getting injured a lot, you might need to reconsider who you are training with, as well as your goals for the sport. If you're regularly getting injured, you're in a bad training environment, IMO. Good boxing/mma coaches aren't concerned about developing healthy, recreational athletes. They need to produce winners and will do whatever at the expense of the health of their athlete to achieve that. The athletes who put themselves through that training are also not considering long term health, they are pathologically driven to win. If you're worried about your health, then you should not be comparing your routines with theirs. Not every workout has to be 100% max effort rolling, and you don't need to be a punching bag for better/younger athletes unless thats what you want. If you're struggling to keep up with every rolling session, maybe take some more time to drill your techniques, or just sit some rounds out. Of course extra conditioning will help. But not as much as grappling will help, and if you are already struggling with your training regime, then adding MORE training won't help you be less sore.
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Nov 29, 2016 22:45
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ICHIBAHN posted:Don't get how it's not true The better you get at grappling the less energy you expend. Good for grappling, bad for cardio Example: To take backs I used to explode over the top of people as soon as I caught sight of their back. Now I just cup my hand on their hip and shuffle my own hips out a bit.
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Nov 29, 2016 22:49
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CommonShore posted:More grappling doesn't so much improve your cardio capacity as it reduces the amount of energy needed to grapple at your favoured pace. To do actual cardio work on top of that will have an added effect. It increases your grappling cardio though, no? Which is the whole point?
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Nov 30, 2016 00:10
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CommonShore posted:You'd never see a (good) boxing/mma coach say something like "running is for idiots, just go spar more," because that's how fighters get injured. Why is it different for grappling? Because it doesn't involve getting punched in the face? I'd say if you're taking it easy and tapping early bjj rolling is relatively low-risk and easy on the body, compared to mma or any serious striking. Personally I think running and skipping and intervals stuff is way more useful for boxing than bjj, it just seems like a different kind of fitness needed. I mean improving your fitness will obviously help your grappling but it depends on your level - if you're a fairly low level amateur with a limited number of training hours a week, doing more grappling (cardio + skill + efficiency) will yield more returns than putting the same time into running or something (pure cardio). Whereas a boxer right from the start needs to do fuckloads of fitness. I'm bad at both though so what do I know.
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Nov 30, 2016 01:36
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ICHIBAHN posted:It increases your grappling cardio though, no? Which is the whole point? The initial question is whether doing extra cardio can help your grappling endurance. My position is that grappling more can help that, but that grappling on its own isn't a great way to improve a few things (especially recovery) which more conventional cardio exercise does very very well. For me to get to a level of intensity point where I feel as if my cardio is getting tested by having an elevated heart rate, my rolls have to become really fast and hard - like competition rather than like practice - which is what leads to injuries or just an awful beaten-up feeling the next day. Maybe things are different for guys who are higher level,  but for what it's worth Eddie Bravo did HIIT in a swimming pool to prepare for the Royler rematch.
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Nov 30, 2016 01:52
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ICHIBAHN posted:It increases your grappling cardio though, no? Which is the whole point? The point was to answer this person's question: ManOfTheYear posted:Do you guys do any conditioning for grappling? 6 minute rolling sessions destroy me and no-gi stuff is so explosive I'm short of breath after few minutes. Wondering if there are any effective routiunes i could do when I'm not able to go to grappling/bjj. For some reason gi stuff is much easier fitness-wise. He could roll for an extra 30 minutes a week to gain both a small increase in his experience level and a small increase in his grappling cardio. Or, he could spend 30 minutes a week doing conditioning which would not increase his experience but would greatly increase his grappling cardio, which is what he wanted to know about. Personally I do extra conditioning but only in the lead-up to a competition. I'm too lazy the rest of the year. No-gi stuff is more explosive and there's also more repetitive full-body movement. Gi is less so but strains your grips and forearms more. The longer you train the less effort you will expend and the less tiring it will get. To answer the question, HIIT works pretty well, running or swimming are fine. If six minute rounds are killing you, maybe do six minute workouts with one minute break. Keep it easy but inject short bursts of intensity into it, and then over time start making the intense bursts longer and maybe up the workouts to seven minutes.
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Nov 30, 2016 02:02
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Professional million dollar coaches haven't totally solved this problem, so making big declarative statements seems a little much. We've had some pretty serious sports science people post here in the past. Hoping one of them might pass through to lay some knowledge on us.
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Nov 30, 2016 02:09
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:The point was to answer this person's question: 6 minute rounds is way more than traditional HIIT would normally be. The Tabata-protocol is 20 seconds on, 10 secs rest. Obviously it depends on what exercises you are doing, but the idea is max effort through the round and rest should be shortened enough so that you are really struggling through the couple of rounds.
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Nov 30, 2016 02:22
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Xguard86 posted:Professional million dollar coaches haven't totally solved this problem, so making big declarative statements seems a little much. Sup  Nothing will train you for a sport like doing that sport. That said, if you are already doing a ton of training, supplementing with cardio or strength work makes a big difference. If the person from the initial post was already training 4-5 times a week I would say cardio is a must. If they are training once a week, I would just train more.
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Nov 30, 2016 02:36
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Just grapple imo
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Nov 30, 2016 12:35
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The human body gets used to the same types of exercise over time. In a way you're basically building endurance specific to grappling and you'll eventually get to the point to where you're expending less effort for the same result. If you want to push your body more to develop better cardio, you'll need to do something that your body isn't necessarily used to, like running or stationary bike. So yeah, like others have said do HIIT on the track or on an exercise bike. Or if you hate doing that kind of thing, just keep doing grappling.
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Nov 30, 2016 14:18
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Vargatron posted:The human body gets used to the same types of exercise over time. In a way you're basically building endurance specific to grappling and you'll eventually get to the point to where you're expending less effort for the same result. If you want to push your body more to develop better cardio, you'll need to do something that your body isn't necessarily used to, like running or stationary bike. Yeah but the question is really whether it's more efficient to do that vs putting the same time into more grappling If you're already training a lot, if you've got to a reasonable level already, if you feel like you've hit a wall, then doing specific cardio is probably a great idea. For a lot of people in this thread who aren't at a particularly high level and don't have a huge amount of training hours per week putting them into more grappling is likely a better idea, depends on your circumstances
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Nov 30, 2016 19:40
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Xguard86 posted:might pass through to lay some knowledge on us. Typical BJJ mindset. They should should shoot a power double and crossface the knowledge into our mouths.
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Nov 30, 2016 20:04
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kimbo305 posted:Typical BJJ mindset. They should should shoot a power double and crossface the knowledge into our mouths. are you a grapple man now?
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Nov 30, 2016 20:25
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Thank you for the answers guys. Been doing kettlebells for a few months and it seems to give me some extra strength I don't think I had before. Yesterday downloaded one of those crossfit apps that gives you random workouts, just did one today (1 mile run, 60 burpees, 800m run, 30 burpees, 600m run, 15 burpees, 400m run, 15 burpees) and that really seemed to generate same kind of out of breath-feeling grappling does, so I think stuff like this would be effective. I just want a little bigger gas tank to work with, that would be great. I've been doing judo for 8 years so maybe that's why gi-stuff is easier but the anaerobic quality of grappling really caught me off guard. After 6 months of only grappling as excercise I lost a lot of muscle mass and rolling was every time just as hard, I think strength and condiyioning is a thing for me.
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Dec 1, 2016 01:47
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Although lifting helps with grappling a little, its honestly just nice to get a solo workout in if its going for a run or lifting or whatever. Plus I think it takes a long time to learn to roll lightly in a way that's beneficial. It seems like I either am way too nice and build bad habits or I feel my partner starting to pick up their intensity so I match them and we end up having a harder roll. If only I didn't have pesky work and bills to get in the way of my progress in jiu-jitsu! And not "I wan't to win Worlds" pro-level of training, I just mean casual training to have fun.
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Dec 1, 2016 04:10
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ManOfTheYear posted:I've been doing judo for 8 years so maybe that's why gi-stuff is easier but the anaerobic quality of grappling really caught me off guard. After 6 months of only grappling as excercise I lost a lot of muscle mass and rolling was every time just as hard, I think strength and condiyioning is a thing for me. Half guard, deep half....Figure out ways to slow your opponent down and do less work on your own, work on your breathing. Losing muscle mass isn't a necessarily a bad thing for grappling.
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Dec 1, 2016 05:56
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mewse posted:Yep, running does not increase punching power, just another hollywood myth about boxing Wasn't the whole point of Rocky as a boxer that he was just too dumb and tough to quit? He wasn't supposed to be a Tyson-style punching machine, just that dumb rear end in a top hat with the curled lip who you could beat on like a brick wall with just as much chance of knocking it out.
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Dec 1, 2016 06:12
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Next week is my group's batizado, the ceremony where we get promoted in rank and then have a big party, but only after a week-long festival of master classes and guest workshops. Anyone here interested in a play by play?
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Dec 1, 2016 15:58
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Liquid Communism posted:Wasn't the whole point of Rocky as a boxer that he was just too dumb and tough to quit? He wasn't supposed to be a Tyson-style punching machine, just that dumb rear end in a top hat with the curled lip who you could beat on like a brick wall with just as much chance of knocking it out. and he was a lefty. Good luck figuring that poo poo out.
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Dec 1, 2016 17:26
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Xguard86 posted:and he was a lefty. Good luck figuring that poo poo out. Not until Rocky 3.
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Dec 1, 2016 18:38
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I'm getting ready for my first BJJ tournament as a white belt. I've been going through the rules book and familiarizing myself with the ref's hand signals and fouls and prohibited techniques. Does anyone have any general advice for a tournament newbie?
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Dec 1, 2016 19:34
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SnatchRabbit posted:I'm getting ready for my first BJJ tournament as a white belt. I've been going through the rules book and familiarizing myself with the ref's hand signals and fouls and prohibited techniques. Does anyone have any general advice for a tournament newbie? Game plan. Breathe. Also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0HTOI9qKkk
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Dec 1, 2016 20:16
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SnatchRabbit posted:I'm getting ready for my first BJJ tournament as a white belt. I've been going through the rules book and familiarizing myself with the ref's hand signals and fouls and prohibited techniques. Does anyone have any general advice for a tournament newbie? 1. Breathe. This deserves to be mentioned again. 2. Worry about your offense, trust your defense. If you do the reverse, you'll spend the whole match defending. 3. Take your time in your matches. 5 minutes gives you plenty of opportunity to work. Don't rush in and try to win right away. E. an important one which is crunchier - make sure that when you get a position that you sink it in deep and hold it for a five count in your head before continuing to the next position, because under the most common novice rulesets that's where points get awarded. Several of my teammates did stuff like guard break-kneeslice-side-mount-armbar without stopping and then their opponent escapes, and they didn't get any points for their effort. Had they stopped for 3 seconds at side and 3 seconds at mount, they would have gotten ... 7? I think? I say 5 count in your head because you'll rush it, and some refs award points slowly. Other than that, go and have fun. Cheering for teammates is super fun too! Don't be afraid to tap, as nothing is on the line. Remember that the difference between first place and last place is tiny compared to the difference between last place and not showing up. Being there and getting out there is literally the most difficult hurdle to cross. The people you meet will be cool and fun, too, and there shouldn't be any weird grudges or rivalries at white belt. After my more frustrating losses, I've asked my opponents about what happened and picked up some technical details as a consequence. CommonShore fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 20:25
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I've won a couple white belt competitions, haven't competed yet at blue. I'd say if you want to win at this level: 1) Do a bunch of cardio to prepare. I assume it's pretty soon - couple of weeks? - so you won't get much better at bjj in that time, but you can actually make a pretty big impact on your fitness very quickly. This will help a lot in a competition because you'll both get an adrenaline dump and gas quickly. 2) Get someone with decent wrestling to train simple takedowns and defence with you. Very simple - literally just double and single leg takedowns and sprawl defence, but do it a lot, until you can definitely make it work. In bjj we (at my club at least) train starting from the knees 90% of the time, then in comps you start standing up. At white belt, people are not prepared. If you shoot a decent double leg it will very likely work, they'll find themselves on the bottom, panic, tire themselves out, you submit or hold onto your points lead till the end. Won't work any more at blue or above, but against white belt level guys it's a the most simple possible, super high percentage gameplan.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:18
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Magnus Manfist posted:
Funny you mention takedowns. I do have some TD and TDD training from my striking experience. My question is, will the ref hit you for stalling in the stand-up phase if you are moving around your opponent, fighting off grips/takedowns but still taking shots, etc?
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Dec 1, 2016 22:35
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SnatchRabbit posted:Funny you mention takedowns. I do have some TD and TDD training from my striking experience. My question is, will the ref hit you for stalling in the stand-up phase if you are moving around your opponent, fighting off grips/takedowns but still taking shots, etc? No, but don't be too committed to getting a takedown standing. Feel your opponent out, test their strength, balance, etc and then take your shot but if it doesn't work don't be afraid to just pull guard. You burn a TON of energy in the standup fight. Oh yeah, be prepared for your adrenaline dump. Breathing and trying to remain calm are suuuuuuper important otherwise you'll gas out.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:59
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SnatchRabbit posted:My question is, will the ref hit you for stalling in the stand-up phase if you are moving around your opponent, fighting off grips/takedowns but still taking shots, etc? Also it appears you have not been turned on to our awesome grappling thread. 
Kekekela fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 23:25
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SnatchRabbit posted:Funny you mention takedowns. I do have some TD and TDD training from my striking experience. My question is, will the ref hit you for stalling in the stand-up phase if you are moving around your opponent, fighting off grips/takedowns but still taking shots, etc? Also if you are not planning on pulling guard, or even if you are really, practice having a partner pull guard on you with the goal of not going down into the closed guard. Lots of white belt matches are just two guys yanking each other around for like 30 seconds until somebody gets frustrated and pulls guard. Being in a position to start passing right away is way better than defending then fighting for posture then trying to break guard then starting to pass.
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Dec 2, 2016 03:16
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