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Caufman posted:Begin the morning by saying to thyself, I shall meet with the busybody, the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful, envious, unsocial. All these things happen to them by reason of their ignorance of what is good and evil. But I who have seen the nature of the good that it is beautiful, and of the bad that it is ugly, and the nature of him who does wrong, that it is akin to me; not [only] of the same blood or seed, but that it participates in [the same] intelligence and [the same] portion of the divinity, I can neither be injured by any of them, for no one can fix on me what is ugly, nor can I be angry with my kinsman, nor hate him. For we are made for co-operation, like feet, like hands, like eyelids, like the rows of the upper and lower teeth.[1] To act against one another, then, is contrary to nature; and it is acting against one another to be vexed and to turn away.
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Dec 1, 2016 12:07
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Can you recommend any good books on the history of Mesoamerica? ::bambi eyes:: Malinche's Conquest and The Broken Spears are very good but only cover the conquest and shortly after
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Dec 1, 2016 12:08
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Pellisworth posted:Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "I must shitpost!" quid vidisti in via? Sepulcrum Christi viventis, et gloriam vidi resurgentis: Angelicos testes, sudarium, et vestes. Surrexit Christus spes mea: and now i must shitpost
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Dec 1, 2016 12:30
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pidan posted:But if there is no Satan, who rules in hell? He is, but popular notions of the devil and hell really do go back to Dante and Milton. The Bible barely mentions hell at all.
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Dec 1, 2016 13:18
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they go back to Tradition though, not just literature
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Dec 1, 2016 13:33
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pidan posted:But if there is no Satan, who rules in hell? Y'know, if we take as an assumption that Satan exists, the smartest thing he could ever do is manage to convince people that he wasn't real. Anyway, we get a lot of Christian cosmology from Justin Martyr in the first half of the second century, who was essentially combining Platonism with Jewish cosmology. Unfortunately I'm not really as familiar with first-century Judaism as I should be, so I'm not sure exactly how much of this was already extant in the Jewish faith, but from Justin Martyr we can see that very early Christians identified the snake in the Garden of Eden with Satan, thought that demons were fallen angels and thought that pagan gods were actually demons -- the smoke from sacrifices to pagan gods was supposedly what demons were nourished by -- and that all the evils in the world were the result of demonic forces working behind the scenes. There was some other stuff from Justin Martyr that didn't really survive past the fifth century, like the idea that the fall of the angels was because of their lust, desiring to come down to the earth to procreate with human women and create demon children. So, yeah, the early Christians definitely believed in Satan, demons and spiritual warfare and it was actually really important to them. Really, the works of St. Augustine are big reason why it all got dialed down: God cannot be the author of evil, therefore it's debatable whether or not demons have any real power; temptation is a result of original sin inclining all human beings to evil, not the work of outside demonic forces; angels are not capable of sin, so they cannot fall, etc.
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Dec 1, 2016 13:47
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The Phlegmatist posted:There was some other stuff from Justin Martyr that didn't really survive past the fifth century, like the idea that the fall of the angels was because of their lust, desiring to come down to the earth to procreate with human women and create demon children. it's in patristics in general too, not just one writer HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 13:50
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The vast majority of it was based on the Book of Enoch, which is still in the Ethiopian Bible!
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Dec 1, 2016 14:53
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Pellisworth posted:Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "I must shitpost!" Christianity Thread II: the shortest Bible verse is about my posting??
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Dec 1, 2016 15:00
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The Phlegmatist posted:Y'know, if we take as an assumption that Satan exists, the smartest thing he could ever do is manage to convince people that he wasn't real. I, too, have seen The Usual Suspects 
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Dec 1, 2016 15:13
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thechosenone posted:So, like, what do you think god's day should be used for? Like, for Christians, and for non-Christians who are affected by it? "The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath." - some Jewish dude Everyone should have a day of rest and reflection, not dedicated to making money. It is for our own good that we should not work seven days a week. Religious people should put aside a part of their rest day for worship and fellowship, nonreligious would do well to spend it with friends and family. It does not matter what day of the week it is, or even if it's consistently one particular day. Sabbath is more of a mental health issue than a religious one. I guess I'd be OK with a law that says all workers must have one day off per week, but not one that specifies what that day must be.
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Dec 1, 2016 15:56
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Lutha Mahtin posted:Christianity Thread II: the shortest Bible verse is about my posting?? drat. I was confused for a while since in Finnish the shortest is "Don't kill." You're not that bad a poster. 
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Dec 1, 2016 15:58
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thechosenone posted:Wait what? poo poo that's pretty cool. I's it alright if I ask stupid questions like what saint or apostle would be most likely to be able to go super Saiyan? I just like connecting things to other things, I'm the kind of person who would love to hear metaphors extended well beyond their welcome. Saint Moses the Ethiopian?
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Dec 1, 2016 19:06
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Deteriorata posted:Most Christian mythology originated with the Divine Comedy or Paradise Lost. Explain where I can find toll-houses in those works.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:08
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Can you recommend any good books on the history of Mesoamerica? ::bambi eyes:: De-lurking to recommend Charles Mann's "1491: Revelations of America Before Columbus." It goes in to a great amount of detail about how complex Native American societies were and how views on them have evolved over time.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:19
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CountFosco posted:Explain where I can find toll-houses in those works. Toll houses spring from the same cosmology that Dante drew on. My own bias is showing a bit, I guess, as I was implicitly intending Western mythology more. Eastern mythology is a whole 'nother ball of wax with which I'm only passingly familiar.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:19
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A complication of blue laws/ Sunday closings that is rarely acknowledged is that for many people contemplation is an unattainable luxury. If you have only two days off a week, and Sunday cannot be used for anything else, you have to cram all of your weekly errands into Saturday. Then, on Sunday, if you run out of milk or diapers, you can be SOL. Furthermore, if you want to go to the library, or to take the children out for entertainment anywhere other than church, again you're SOL. The demands of daily life do not stop dead on Sunday.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:27
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thechosenone posted:Yeah, I'll definitely keep those in mind. I mean, how do you define power? Because in terms of power to dominate, worldly power to command servitude, it goes: triune God > humans > creation. As I see it.
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Dec 1, 2016 19:43
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So if Satan isn't as prominent in the Bible as most people think, then who was tempting Jesus in the desert? Was that just Him personifying the internal debate He was having at the time?
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Dec 1, 2016 20:02
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SirPhoebos posted:So if Satan isn't as prominent in the Bible as most people think, then who was tempting Jesus in the desert? Was that just Him personifying the internal debate He was having at the time? It's still Satan, but possibly he's just doing his job rather than rebelling against the heavens.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:06
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SirPhoebos posted:So if Satan isn't as prominent in the Bible as most people think, then who was tempting Jesus in the desert? Was that just Him personifying the internal debate He was having at the time? Satan as a personification evil had a life outside of the Bible and was common in beliefs at the time. Jesus casts out demons and stuff too, so there's a whole taxonomy of underworld creatures that are implied or assumed to exist by the Biblical writers, without ever being addressed directly. So the Bible itself does not present a coherent picture of Satan, but he's still around at the margins. The concept of Satan thus goes way back, but the specifics of him are mostly of recent vintage.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:18
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SirPhoebos posted:So if Satan isn't as prominent in the Bible as most people think, then who was tempting Jesus in the desert? Was that just Him personifying the internal debate He was having at the time? Yeah the "biography" of Satan is very different dependent on which tradition you take from. In Judaism he's just a, literal, "devils advocate". He's there to point out all the bad stuff and to accuse humanity of things. In the Christian tradition he used to be the same thing. Others have mentioned how there were "demons" and stuff but they are closer to spirits and things that people couldn't understand but God can deal with. But over time it has shifted a fair amount. Some of it towards a more Islamic understanding of who Satan is. And although it may be heretical to say some aspects of Evangelical Christianity may be based on an actively Dualist sense of things. Dualism holds that there is a "Good God" who made spiritual things and a "Bad God" or "Demiruge" who made physical things. A fair old amount of Christian Fundamentalism places a great deal more emphasis, and grants so much more power, to Satan that you'd think they were on his side. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 20:23
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If by "recent vintage" you mean almost two millennia old, sure.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:25
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The Phlegmatist posted:If by "recent vintage" you mean almost two millennia old, sure. This goes back to Dante and Milton being the source of most Western mythology about Satan. They, of course, drew on other sources which are now obscure. The Bible itself is not the source, which is often problematic with some Sola Scriptura Satan-obsessed Protestant denominations.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:29
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Josef bugman posted:Dualism holds that there is a "Good God" who made spiritual things and a "Bad God" or "Demiruge" who made physical things. A fair old amount of Christian Fundamentalism places a great deal more emphasis, and grants so much more power, to Satan that you'd think they were on his side. Speaking of this, earlier in the thread somebody mentioned an... Appalachian Protestant sect that had a virtually Gnostic attitude towards God and reality -- does anyone remember what that was, and their proper name in particular so I can look them up and read about them? I think they had the word "Gospel" in their name. (In classic Christianity thread style, I need this information for a Mage: The Awakening campaign.)
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Dec 1, 2016 20:31
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Deteriorata posted:This goes back to Dante and Milton being the source of most Western mythology about Satan. They, of course, drew on other sources which are now obscure. The Bible itself is not the source, which is often problematic with some Sola Scriptura Satan-obsessed Protestant denominations. As mentioned, these people are usually believers in the Demiruge.
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Dec 1, 2016 20:31
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Deteriorata posted:This goes back to Dante and Milton being the source of most Western mythology about Satan. They, of course, drew on other sources which are now obscure. The Bible itself is not the source, which is often problematic with some Sola Scriptura Satan-obsessed Protestant denominations. You make it sound like Satan in the entirety of scripture refers exclusively to the pre-3rd century BC Jewish conception of Satan sitting on the heavenly court and functioning as an accuser. That's not true. The role of Satan evolved in Judaism, very likely due to Zoroastrian influence, during the 3nd century BC -- as historically attested to by the books of Daniel and Enoch. The New Testament was written in this climate and is fairly clear in its dualistic cosmology where God is good and Satan exists in full opposition to God and all things holy. Look at Paul in 2nd Corinthians referring to false teachers as being servants of Satan. That makes no sense if Satan only fulfills the role of an accuser. The different circles of hell and what have you are obviously a literary invention but I've never heard Protestants ever talk about those.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:30
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Speaking of this, earlier in the thread somebody mentioned an... Appalachian Protestant sect that had a virtually Gnostic attitude towards God and reality -- does anyone remember what that was, and their proper name in particular so I can look them up and read about them? I think they had the word "Gospel" in their name.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:37
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The Phlegmatist posted:You make it sound like Satan in the entirety of scripture refers exclusively to the pre-3rd century BC Jewish conception of Satan sitting on the heavenly court and functioning as an accuser. That's not true. The role of Satan evolved in Judaism, very likely due to Zoroastrian influence, during the 3nd century BC -- as historically attested to by the books of Daniel and Enoch. The New Testament was written in this climate and is fairly clear in its dualistic cosmology where God is good and Satan exists in full opposition to God and all things holy. Look at Paul in 2nd Corinthians referring to false teachers as being servants of Satan. That makes no sense if Satan only fulfills the role of an accuser. Sorry for the misunderstanding, then. I'm aware of all that and was speaking more of the common current ideas about Satan. Most of it is extra-Biblical and what many people will swear is in the Bible actually tends to come from Milton. Similarly, a lot of people (primarily Protestants) are obsessed with the Rapture, which is barely mentioned in the NT and yet an elaborate mythological structure has been built around it that people assume is all Biblically grounded.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:36
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Deteriorata posted:Sorry for the misunderstanding, then. I'm aware of all that and was speaking more of the common current ideas about Satan. Most of it is extra-Biblical and what many people will swear is in the Bible actually tends to come from Milton. No worries. I know you know your stuff. I just didn't want people to get the wrong idea. I agree that there's a whole weird framework built up around, primarily, the book of Revelation, like the locusts John of Patmos writes about actually being Apache attack helicopters. Plus the overlap between people who have read the book of Enoch and people who think angels are actually aliens from outer space is startlingly high. Crazies love end times stuff.
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Dec 2, 2016 01:21
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Wormwood is a satellite
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Dec 2, 2016 01:29
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The Phlegmatist posted:No worries. I know you know your stuff. I just didn't want people to get the wrong idea. Never trust anybody whose favorite books of the Bible are Revelation and Daniel.
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Dec 2, 2016 02:15
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Never trust anybody whose favorite books of the Bible are Revelation and Daniel. Daniel is a fine book, the story of Daniel and the lion's den was one of my favorites as a kid. There's just... really weird parts of the book, too.
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Dec 2, 2016 02:20
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Lamentations is underrated imo Quote this if you agree
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Dec 2, 2016 02:24
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Never trust anybody whose favorite books of the Bible are Revelation and Daniel. I really like the Apocryphal Daniel. Susanna and Bel and the Dragon are all about the way reason leads us to truth, and God.
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Dec 2, 2016 02:41
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Smoking Crow posted:Lamentations is underrated imo eh, not sure... Wikipedia posted:The Book of Lamentations (Hebrew: אֵיכָה, ‘Êykhôh, from its incipit meaning "how") well, i do like how
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Dec 2, 2016 02:43
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Cythereal posted:Daniel is a fine book, the story of Daniel and the lion's den was one of my favorites as a kid. There's just... really weird parts of the book, too. Daniel is cool because we can pin down when it was written almost to the day. The "prophesies" about the King of the North and what he was going to do start diverging from what actually happened just about September, 164 BC.
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Dec 2, 2016 02:46
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Deteriorata posted:Daniel is cool because we can pin down when it was written almost to the day. The "prophesies" about the King of the North and what he was going to do start diverging from what actually happened just about September, 164 BC. Cythereal posted:Daniel is a fine book, the story of Daniel and the lion's den was one of my favorites as a kid. There's just... really weird parts of the book, too.
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Dec 2, 2016 03:36
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Ooh! Say more! The character Daniel (or Dan'el) was a well-known from local Canaanite folk tales. He was in the mold of Odysseus, having lots of adventures fighting with gods and mythical beasts. So the book of Daniel was written in the style of those tales, veering into apocalypticism toward the end. It is thematically as well as stylistically related to Revelation, as they both are sending the message to its readers to hang on through the bad times, better times will come. It was actually written during the Maccabean revolt from 167-160 BC. It uses stories of Daniel set in the Babylonian Captivity to illustrate how keeping the faith in time of distress paid off. I would have to dig out lots of books and get caught up again on specifics, but basically chapter 11 of Daniel is all about the war between the king of the north (the Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes) and the king of the south (the Maccabeans). It follows pretty accurately what records show happened through most of 164, but the writer states that the king of the north will hold Jerusalem for 70 years, while the Maccabees were able to get it back shortly after the battle of Beth Zur, in late September or October of that year. From that, it's been concluded that the book must have been written shortly before that battle. That December was when they had the famous rededication of the Temple, where they only had one day's worth of oil and yet the lamps burned for all seven, leading to the festival of Hanukkah.
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Dec 2, 2016 04:18
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That was a wonderful post. Thank you.
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Dec 2, 2016 05:18
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