FATAL & Friends 2016-19: Bad Rules and Hidden Jewels

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Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

Speaking of Neverwinter Nights, it's free on GOG right now.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 17:54

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:45

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Siivola posted:

Speaking of Neverwinter Nights, it's free on GOG right now.

I've probably put more hours into Neverwinter Nights than any other RPG except maybe New Vegas. Oh Bioware, what happened to you? :negative:

# ? Dec 2, 2016 17:58

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

SirPhoebos posted:

It�s been a while, and the start of The Great Modron March review tempted me to put this on hold to review Planes of Law, but I�m committed to finishing this up.

4: �It is a purely chaotic artifact. Thus it is a wonderful item to give to player characters.�

Like I was saying, this was the first RPG book I ever owned, before I actually owned any core games. It was surreal. Those random power tables were the best. "This is a crystal flower full of magic perfumes that raise the dead and then make you fall asleep." I remember one of the high-numbered results on the Cataclysms table summons giant WOLF GHOSTS to guard the artifact.

Bieeardo posted:

That other poo poo they added later, imported Egyptians and an eighth grader's conception of Cortez? That wasn't history, that was stasis. And gently caress, if you really want pastiches of real world cultures, kept in temporal Tupperware for your friends to run roughshod over? The BD&D Hollow World content did it far better.

Of course Mystara is better than FR in every single conceivable way. Everyone knows that.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:01

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Kurieg posted:

Particularly since the original D&D had poo poo like aliens and cyborgs in it cause the governing creed was "is it fun? Sure, why not."

This is one of the things that bugs me the most about what D&D (or at least Basic-era D&D) used to be like and what it is now.

Like, way back in Basic and 1e there were crashed spaceships and gnomish power armor and all kinds of goofy, cool things all over the place. Now it's just Forgotten Realms 24/7 and it's stuck in a kind of stasis because heaven forefend it's no longer what it was like when I was 12.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:03

Doresh: Jan 7, 2015

Halloween Jack posted:

Of course Mystara is better than FR in every single conceivable way. Everyone knows that.

That's why Capcom used the setting for their two D&D Beat-em-Ups.

Kavak posted:

I've probably put more hours into Neverwinter Nights than any other RPG except maybe New Vegas. Oh Bioware, what happened to you?

Since this is runs on 3.X and I have sadly not played all that much in it: How strong is the CoDzilla in it?

# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:07

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Kavak posted:

I've probably put more hours into Neverwinter Nights than any other RPG except maybe New Vegas. Oh Bioware, what happened to you?

Several of them left to form Obsidian? Which made New Vegas and NWN2? (Also Mask of the Betrayer, which is the important part of NWN2)

Kavak posted:

Yeah, I'd like to see some examples, because it doesn't sound that bad (He says, putting some salt on those words for later)

They're an evil-in-all-but-name(They're basically the hyper dickish interpretation of Lawful Neutral) theocratic nation built upon the backs of Slaves. Even though they were abducted from their world to be used as slave labor and that would have given them a chance to gain some perspective, they're a pastiche of ancient egypt and everyone knows that Ancient Egypt used slaves. Also the reason why Egypt in the real world fell is because Ao allowed the Egyptian Pantheon to come to Faerun to aid their people in rebelling against their Imaskari slavers and said gods never went back.

Seriosly 78% of Mulhorand's population is human slaves owned by the priest caste.

Did I mention they still have a Caste system?

# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:11

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Kurieg posted:

Several of them left to form Obsidian? Which made New Vegas and NWN2? (Also Mask of the Betrayer, which is the important part of NWN2)

Obsidian was mostly Black Isle, I don't think they have anyone from Bioware. They had a long working relationship, though.

Kurieg posted:

Also the reason why Egypt in the real world fell is because Ao allowed the Egyptian Pantheon to come to Faerun to aid their people in rebelling against their Imaskari slavers and said gods never went back.

Doesn't seem that bad in a vacuum (Except the slave:free ratio even Rome at its height wasn't like that), but when the nations full of dark-skinned people are awful while the free and fair lands are white people, I see what the problem is.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:43

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Mulhorand explicitly imports slaves from Thay. The only real reason Mulhorand isn't depicted as an evil to be opposed is because Unther is worse and Mulhorand and Unther basically do nothing but oppose each other.

Also they're in Southeastern Faerun and nobody cares about Southeastern Faerun.

_{Except when you change it then it must be restored at all costs by the god of gods himself.}

# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:50

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Kavak posted:

Doesn't seem that bad in a vacuum (Except the slave:free ratio even Rome at its height wasn't like that), but when the nations full of dark-skinned people are awful while the free and fair lands are white people, I see what the problem is.

This is a very odd thing I keep seeing in fantasy, like how in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy the dark-skinned race are the slavers.

By the by, now that I think on it, I was only playing a Mulhorandi because the book said that's where almost all the aasimar come from, and I wanted to play an aasimar. I was playing a cleric of the Red Knight, so I didn't even get into the Horus stuff.

Hostile V posted:

ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN

ENTER THE ZOMBIE

CHAPTER TWO

Hello again! You may be asking "why are you starting on chapter 2?". Well that's because Chapter One in pretty much every AFMBE book is the intro that goes over what the book is about and follows a little bit of intro fiction. Well, I've said it once and I'll say it again: Enter the Zombie is the sourcebook for heroic bloodshed action and kung fu fighting. More importantly, it includes rules for two new types of cast members, rules for playing as a zombie and a buttload of new zombie abilities. Even if you're not down with these types of movies or entertainment, the new rules are well worth the price of admission. Also resoundingly excellent is the intro fiction. It's about the spirit of a Dread Lord being summoned into a fresh corpse to kill a crime lord/sorcerer who killed the summoner's girlfriend. It's way better than I'm making it sound.

CHAPTER TWO: TAO OF THE DEAD

New Character Types

Both of these new types use Essence but they're not like the Inspired. Their powers are their own and they're an expression of Chi instead of holy might. They're a little more of a cross between the Inspired and Survivors, getting durability and ability and Chi powers.

Martial Artists have mastered the physical and spiritual sides of their bodies to unleash them as a living weapon. They kick rear end and take names for a living when they're not training or honing their minds. Martial Artists get 25 points for Attributes, 10 for Qualities (10 for Drawbacks), 15 for Skills and 20 for Metaphysics. Some of these points will be spent on the Gift Quality and a type of Essence Channeling Quality. They get more Attributes than Inspired and Survivors (and when Dex is king, that's pretty major!) and more points for Metaphysics than Inspired do (though granted some of it might end up being spent on what's necessary to use their abilities). Their big downside is they get less Quality points than Survivors (and when you consider that a Survivor can start play in full Don't Suck, that matters) and they get less Skills than both Survivors and Inspired (due to the somewhat limited nature of their training and the fact that there's no reduction in price for the Martial Arts skill for them). Basically they're excellent at melee combat and being able to use their Chi abilities but they're not really as well rounded as a Survivor. Also if you use the other type of character generation in the book with randomized skill points, Martial Artists get a base 5 points minimum.

Shooters are masters of gun-fu, able to use Chi to manipulate their reflexes and ability to sling bullets. They get 20 points for Attributes, 15 for Qualities (10 for Drawbacks), 20 for Skills and 15 for Metaphysics, also needing to buy Gift/Essence Channeling. Their Attribute and Quality spread is on par with a Survivor and their Metaphysics meet the Inspired's point pool. Their big weakness is the lack of Skill points being on the lower side of things, just not as badly as the Martial Artist. Granted, putting points into Gun is less costly, but. Essentially the Shooter is a Survivor who traded 15 points of Skills for points to spend on gun-fu tricks, which can be especially helpful in the right kind of game.

MARTIAL ARTS

There's a handy new rule change in place for the Martial Arts skill. In the basic rules, Martial Arts costs 2 points per rank and then 5 points after Level 5, giving +1 damage per skill level as well. The change is the addition of actual moves and the fact that when you get your first rank in Martial Arts, you get to pick three moves that make up the core of your school. Every time you level Martial Arts, these three moves increase in power to be the same level as the core skill. Every level after also gives you 3 points to spend on picking more moves at a level you want to see them at. So, say someone takes Martial Arts 4. They get 12 points total and the first three abilities purchased cost 1 point each and will auto-level with the skill. You now have 9 points to spend on other moves and abilities. Points can't be used to level abilities over the skill's level; skill level acts as the cap.

Further rules: each move counts as an action for the purposes of multiple actions in a sequence on your turn.

Martial Arts Combat Moves

Arm Lock: parry or grab someone successfully to apply Strength Damage as long as the arm lock is held. This damage is inflicted automatically, but the defender can break free if they win a Difficult Strength test vs. Strength+Arm Lock test.

Back Kick: kick people behind you without turning around, dealing d4xStrength damage. Failing this move means you run the risk of accidentally throwing yourself off balance or falling down.

Breakfall: Make a Dexterity+Breakfall check where success levels reduce the damage multiplier from a fall by 1 point per level. When the multiplier hits 1, the success levels start shaving 1 point of damage off the result per level.

Counterpunch: triggers on a successful parry. Each level of success from the parry adds +1 to hit with the counterpunch. The punch deals 1d4xStrength damage.

Crescent Kick: kick mightily in a circle. Deals 1d6xStrength damage but it's harder to keep your balance than the Back Kick.

Disarm: Dex+Disarm vs. Dex+Weapon Skill to disarm an enemy.

Flip: get off the ground without having to use a Defense action to get back up on a successful Dex+Flip roll. Failure means the Defense was wasted and you're still on the ground.

Grab: a successful grab means that the attacker can fire off another Combat Move with no penalty for multiple actions. Grabs can be added to Dodges or Parries with no penalty either. Does this mean you can Parry a punch, Grab the attacker and Counterpunch the attacker right in the solar plexus? Yes it does!

Head Butt: The big upside of a head butt is that you can use it when your hands are full or you're tied up. The big downside is that a failed Skill roll to use it means you take the 1d4xStrength damage instead because you hurt your head. Fairly accurate to real life, really.

Jab: Jabs can be used twice in a row with no penalty because they're so quick. 1d4x(Strength-1) damage.

Judo Throw: Parry or Grab someone to make a Judo Throw roll. Success deals 1d4 damage and puts the opponent prone, giving them -4 to pretty much everything combat-related.

Jump Kick: deals 1d6x(Strength+2) damage but loving it up means you run the risk of falling down.

Kick: Regardless of success, throwing a kick out into the aether means that the attacker gets -2 to any defensive actions that turn or the next. 1d4x(Strength+1) damage.

Punch: On the other hand, throwing a punch gives you +2 to any defensive action that turn. Deals 1d4xStrength damage.

Roll With The Blow: If you're hit by an attack, you can spend your next attack move to attempt to roll with the blow. Before damage is calculated, a successful RWTB test means each level of success reduces the damage multiplier of the attack by 2 down to 0.

Roundhouse: A heavy attack that deals 1d6xStrength damage but means you take -2 to defensive actions that round.

Stabbing Hand: Punch+; more damage but with less defensive bonuses. 1d4x(Strength+1) damage.

Shove: force the opponent back on successful contest with the possibility of putting them on the ground. No damage.

Spin Kick: Deals 1d4x(Strength+2) damage but carries the same defense penalty as the regular kick plus the threat of losing your balance like the back kick.

Sucker Punch: if the attacker succeeds on an Intelligence+Sucker Punch vs. Perception test, the target can't defend against the 1d4xStrength damage punch.

Trip: Force the target down to the ground and deal 1d6 damage.

So in a nutshell, punches are a good reliable way to do damage and keep on your toes while kicks can do more damage at the cost of screwing yourself. Bit like real life, really. Any build with Kicks is definitely going to want to look into Flip while Grab pairs nicely with certain punches.

Yeah, Unisystem's martial arts system is my favourite, but depending on what incarnation you're using, it has problems.

Moves like Back Kick mean nothing in a system where you're never encouraged to track facing or use a battlemap. Moves like Head Butt are too situational to matter. And moves like Trip are just another move but better. (Trip is like Judo throw, but you don't have to Grab first, and it does more damage!)

I can't remember if EtZ has the same problem as Conspiracy X with some punches just being better than others. The potential consequences of falling on your butt when you kick seem to matter little. If you're the dedicated Martial Artist, you get a high skill, you take Spin Kick or Jump Kick and you just don't miss. Even if you somehow do, you'll probably succeed on the roll to keep your balance.

Still, it's the best framework I've seen for modeling a reality where you could be, say, a really dangerous kickboxer who's vulnerable to getting wrestlefucked.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 2, 2016

# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:55

Robindaybird: Aug 21, 2007; Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Halloween Jack posted:

This is a very odd thing I keep seeing in fantasy, like how in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy the dark-skinned race are the slavers.

and it's not even slavery as it was in Roman or some of the pre-colonial empires of Africa, but it's often straight up modeled after the Chattel Slavery in the Americas and European-owned colonies, making it more puzzling.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:04

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

Halloween Jack posted:

This is a very odd thing I keep seeing in fantasy, like how in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy the dark-skinned race are the slavers.

drow are just incomprehensible, I don't understand how you go "well okay so the evil elves are the dark skinned ones" and think this remotely a good idea (in forgotten realms iirc they are actually dark skinned because they are evil which is like holy poo poo)

the fact that they live underground is just icing on the cake

e: there's also a 4e paragon path where you get to be reborn as a white elf

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:18

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

One of the nice things about the Warhams Fantasy Dark Elves? They're just, uh, they're assholes. That's it. They're not even a separate race. They're just one side of an ancient succession struggle and massive slaving dicks.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:20

Robindaybird: Aug 21, 2007; Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

drow are just incomprehensible, I don't understand how you go "well okay so the evil elves are the dark skinned ones" and think this remotely a good idea (in forgotten realms iirc they are actually dark skinned because they are evil which is like holy poo poo)

the fact that they live underground is just icing on the cake

e: there's also a 4e paragon path where you get to be reborn as a white elf

Yeah, I keep going around in circles trying to reinvent the drow to wipe out that implication (made worse that some official art don't depict them with pitch-black or blue-back skin, but dark brown-ish real skin tones), and felt like honestly the best solution is just toss them out completely and start over.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:20

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

I can't remember if it's forgotten realms or pathfinder. But in one of those it's literally impossible to be an evil elf if you aren't a Drow. The taint of your sin turns their skin black.

The opposite requires that you prove that you're "One of the good ones" and literal divine intervention.

This is why I thought having the underdark crushed and free Drow moving to the surface was a good thing. But Ao, wall of the faithless himself, disagrees.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:23

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Kurieg posted:

I can't remember if it's forgotten realms or pathfinder. But in one of those it's literally impossible to be an evil elf if you aren't a Drow. The taint of your sin turns their skin black.

The opposite requires that you prove that you're "One of the good ones" and literal divine intervention.

This is why I thought having the underdark crushed and free Drow moving to the surface was a good thing. But Ao, wall of the faithless himself, disagrees.

One of the 3.5 adventure paths for pathfinder had it that If an elf goes evil enough, they can spontaneously transform into a drow; the big bad of the adventure was a former elf Drowhunter who became a Drow in the midst of arguing for a final solution to the dark elf problem and decided that since she was now what she hated, might as well go whole hog and try to destroy the world/and or blot out the sun. Whether this is still part of Golarion's 'lore' is open to question.

(I don't think it's 'elves can't be evil at all without going drow, there's plenty of evil elves who don't, it's just 'there's a random chance of it'.)

unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Dec 2, 2016

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:27

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

1. Elves are chameleon-like and adapt their features to their environment.
2. Drow live underground, have dark skin to hide among rocks and shadows.

There, non-racist Drow origin. As for their society, uh...

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:28

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

How the hell do game writers keep slamming face first into the Drow and not go 'Hey man maybe this is a bad idea and sorta hosed up'

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:28

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Kavak posted:

1. Elves are chameleon-like and adapt their features to their environment.
2. Drow live underground, have dark skin to hide among rocks and shadows.

There, non-racist Drow origin. As for their society, uh...

That is explicitly how Elves work in Golarion..... with the added caveat that if they turn evil their skin turns black to match their soul.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:32

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

The funniest, silliest, stupidest, best thing about Good Drow is still Eilistraee, the drow goddess who dances naked in the moonlight because of loving course, Ed Greenwood.

The only take on "becoming drow" I like is Malcolm Sheppard's; I remember him saying something about his AD&D game where drow are elves who drink nanite-infused water to drive themselves insane. Because you have to be insane to live in underground cities full of spiders and Lovecraftian monsters.

FMguru posted:

That 1978 Poul Anderson essay On Thud And Blunder captures the mindset pretty well. The idea that there's a concrete, consistent, concrete foundation underlying your favorite stories that you can engage with is a really seductive part of fantasy worldbuilding.

Evil Mastermind posted:

That "On Thud and Blunder" article is some pure-strain loving grog. It's like the "contractors on the Death Star" joke from Clerks but dead serious.

I like a lot of it, to be honest. Campaigns based on real conflicts are more interesting than ones based on Dark Lords, Chosen Ones, and Ultimate Weapons. Real problems of overland travel can be more interesting than fantastical ones. Medieval cities at night can be more interesting than dungeons.

But of course he sounds very silly when he starts making pronouncements on the precise details of knife-fighting and sword-forging.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:33

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Kurieg posted:

That is explicitly how Elves work in Golarion..... with the added caveat that if they turn evil their skin turns black to match their soul.

That's like...taking two steps forward, then running back the way you came screaming.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:36

JackMann: Aug 11, 2010; Secure. Contain. Protect.; Fallen Rib

Because Drow were made in a simpler (read: more racist) time, and people then didn't know any better. Now it's a big part of the lore of D&D, especially with the existence of Drizzt. A lot of gamers remember it fondly, without thinking about the imlications. Nerds are terrible about identifying with their media, so when you call drow racist, they become very defensive. If they even acknowledge that it could possibly be racist, they try to "fix" the concept, when it's not really fixable without changing it entirely (either drow aren't more evil than other elves, or they aren't dark skinned).

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:38

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Which is why 4e changed it. The drow culture is the way it is because Lloth is a goddamn demon spider who wants everyone to suffer maximally. Absent her being a cosmic slumlord and presented with an opportunity for escape several drow did, they're still angry dour people but they aren't "Always Chaotic Evil".

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:50

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

Kurieg posted:

Which is why 4e changed it. The drow culture is the way it is because Lloth is a goddamn demon spider who wants everyone to suffer maximally. Absent her being a cosmic slumlord and presented with an opportunity for escape several drow did, they're still angry dour people but they aren't "Always Chaotic Evil".

right, except they also have an epic destiny where the reward is to be reborn as a good [light-skinned] elf

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:58

JackMann: Aug 11, 2010; Secure. Contain. Protect.; Fallen Rib

They were generally less lovely in 4e, but yeah, there were still lovely things.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:05

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

On the one hand, it's literally reborn, as in once you die your soul get put into an infant elf just born somewhere in the world with absolutely no memory of your previous life. The idea being that FR Lloth literally has a claim on every drow's soul and regardless of what you do you're doomed to a life of damnation, it's just that most PC caliber drow don't give a gently caress and would rather spend their lives doing something other than servitude to her.

On the other hand this is the tag line

quote:

You have ever struggled to rise above the darkness clouding your heart, but now you have the chance to prove to the world that you are different from all the rest.

nyeeeggghhhhh

JackMann posted:

They were generally less lovely in 4e, but yeah, there were still lovely things.

Basically this, they did a lot to move FR forward in 4e but some of the poo poo still stuck to their boots.

FWIW I looked it up and that was written by Robert J. Schwalb and it was also like their.. fourth ever dragon magazine? The entire article goes on about how they are literally cursed and doomed by Lloth and Corellion. Which is true. Even Ellistrae is cursed for all eternity because she was caught on the wrong side of the Elven Godswar. And Forgotten Realms being what it is, evil gods need worshippers so their followers were brought down with them. And the Drow are forced to worship their pantheon because to not do so would curse them to a fate that's somehow worse than eternal damnation.

What I'm getting at here is that Forgotten Realms is terrible and more people should play Eberron.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Dec 2, 2016

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:07

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Kurieg posted:

On the one hand, it's literally reborn, as in once you die your soul get put into an infant elf just born somewhere in the world with absolutely no memory of your previous life. The idea being that FR Lloth literally has a claim on every drow's soul and regardless of what you do you're doomed to a life of damnation,

At least this is well in keeping with D&D's cosmology, where Evil is a particle (or maybe a protein).

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:22

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Halloween Jack posted:

At least this is well in keeping with D&D's cosmology, where Evil is a particle (or maybe a protein).

I think it's one of those wave-particle dualities. It's definitely an energy sometimes so that detect evil can pick up 'evil auras'.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:30

megane: Jun 20, 2008

"Detect Evil" is literally just a Geiger counter.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:32

PurpleXVI: Oct 30, 2011; Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

While I think that Drow tend to be garbage, considering them to be racist caricatures is a bit reaching. I mean, we've classically associated the colour black with evil stuff in general, so going: "When evil, paint it black" or "When he turns evil, he puts on a black cloak." doesn't necessarily associate it with any minorities. And secondly, the black is the only thing they'd have in common with any minorities. It's not like they're known for their spider tacos or their rap songs worshipping Lolth.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:35

Barudak: May 7, 2007

Not a legit solution since race change effects in general are a bad plan but I played a campaign where normal elves are pitch black because, well sun god, and the punishment for losing the sun gods favor was losing the protection from the sun until you basically became super Irish and avoided sunlight purely due to skin irritation. Ways to lose the sun gods favor included things like marrying outside the faith, leaving the forest, etc so these people still weren't evil they just weren't orthodox elves.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:39

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

PurpleXVI posted:

While I think that Drow tend to be garbage, considering them to be racist caricatures is a bit reaching. I mean, we've classically associated the colour black with evil stuff in general, so going: "When evil, paint it black" or "When he turns evil, he puts on a black cloak." doesn't necessarily associate it with any minorities. And secondly, the black is the only thing they'd have in common with any minorities. It's not like they're known for their spider tacos or their rap songs worshipping Lolth.

their skin is black. because they are evil. that is almost exactly identical to one of the traditional racist myths about black people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham

but hey, as long as they aren't a one-for-one mapping of every racist thing anyone has ever said then it must be fine, right?

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:51

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

There's a fabled thread on Stormfront where people were assuring this one racist D&D player that it's okay to be a fan of Drizzt, he's one of the good ones.

So even if Drow are not intended to be racist caricatures, racists take them as such.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:57

Doresh: Jan 7, 2015

I find the skin color of drow weird anyways, regardless of possible racist implications.

I mean, I'm probably falling into the already mentioned trap of applying too much realism and stuff, but they live underground. They should be near-blind albinoes at best and a Pan's-Labyrinth version of Morlocks at worst.

Night10194 posted:

One of the nice things about the Warhams Fantasy Dark Elves? They're just, uh, they're assholes. That's it. They're not even a separate race. They're just one side of an ancient succession struggle and massive slaving dicks.

This is how you should do this kind of thing. It always gets me when human nations can have any alignment under the sun, but dwarves and elves need a whole different sub-race for every possible alignment, terrain, average temperature and humidity.

Considering that it's always the humans that are the short-lived and highly adaptable species, it should be they who have splintered off into thousands of sub-races. Humans in your typical fantasy world should be an entire race of the most special of snowflakes, with about the same variety in body shapes and sizes as One Piece.

(Though this does give me a weird idea about a possible Heartbreaker where there are only elves. And every elves is its own sub-race. The metaplot will make sure that all the popular ones are already taken.)

PurpleXVI posted:

While I think that Drow tend to be garbage, considering them to be racist caricatures is a bit reaching. I mean, we've classically associated the colour black with evil stuff in general, so going: "When evil, paint it black" or "When he turns evil, he puts on a black cloak." doesn't necessarily associate it with any minorities. And secondly, the black is the only thing they'd have in common with any minorities. It's not like they're known for their spider tacos or their rap songs worshipping Lolth.

You know how you can do the whole "black is the evil color" with style? Give the bad guys black armor. Preferably with spikes.

Oh, and has anyone heard of 50 Copper and Ludi'drizz't before?

Doresh fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Dec 2, 2016

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:01

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Doresh posted:

You know how you can do the whole "black is the evil color" with style? Give the bad guys black armor. Preferably with spikes.

Dig these fuckin' Paladins of Lolth:

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:07

Doresh: Jan 7, 2015

Halloween Jack posted:

Dig these fuckin' Paladins of Lolth:

Now that's a Prestige Class I can get behind. I bet they can pull off a Smiting Shoulder Bash.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:10

PurpleXVI: Oct 30, 2011; Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Doresh posted:

You know how you can do the whole "black is the evil color" with style? Give the bad guys black armor. Preferably with spikes.

Hence why Drow are stupid and hamfisted, but not necessarily racist by design. The fact that some weirdo nazi fucks see something racist in them is an entirely different matter. They'd probably see a call to power for proud aryans in a box of cornflakes.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:11

Doresh: Jan 7, 2015

PurpleXVI posted:

Hence why Drow are stupid and hamfisted, but not necessarily racist by design. The fact that some weirdo nazi fucks see something racist in them is an entirely different matter. They'd probably see a call to power for proud aryans in a box of cornflakes.

Basically like those religious nutjobs who can't look at any piece of popular media without scanning it for potential satanic symbolism?

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:15

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Doresh posted:

Now that's a Prestige Class I can get behind. I bet they can pull off a Smiting Shoulder Bash.

Prestige class nothing, in 4e that was a fighter build option. In one game I played a dragonborn grapple fighter who was a luchador. There was even an encounter power that was pretty much a tag-in.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:15

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Doresh posted:

Now that's a Prestige Class I can get behind. I bet they can pull off a Smiting Shoulder Bash.

It's called the Demonweb Device, bro.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:17

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:45

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

The only drows I liked were the Eberron ones.

Although if I ever play in the Forgotten Realms setting again, I have a concept for "Snowdrift" (real name unpronounceable), the most annoyingly cheerful optimistic and good natured Drow ever. No angst for this guy, he dashes in to the rescues and is completely oblivious to everyone reacting with fear to his arrival. Probably a Paladin, although a Cleric of the Sun God works too.

I also want to play a Mind-FLayer Paladin one of these days. You see, he only eats the brains of really evil people, and only as a last resort!

# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:23

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