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Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Godholio posted:

So does carrying enough fuel to actually get to your destination, but :shrug:

:vince:

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Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

Finger Prince posted:

It would have to be deliberate, and you probably wouldn't be flying it anywhere.

I don't know, there were those guys in indonesia that reset their flight computers while flying and

Oh.

Hm.

Godholio posted:

So does carrying enough fuel to actually get to your destination, but :shrug:

:parrot:

CarForumPoster
Jun 26, 2013

⚡POWER⚡

Nebakenezzer posted:

I don't know, there were those guys in indonesia that reset their flight computers while flying and

Yea by reset you mean flip breakers cause "we saw a guy do it once on the ground" ...https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/circuit-board-solder-crack-cited-in-indonesia-airasi-419593/

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS
I'm definitely sure this has been addressed in this thread before but I gotta ask again. Are Airbus's fly by wire systems particularly convenient/foolproof or something? It seems like half the time there's an accident it's because Alternate Law was engaged for whatever reason and the pilots literally don't notice/know what's going on.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004

Eej posted:

I'm definitely sure this has been addressed in this thread before but I gotta ask again. Are Airbus's fly by wire systems particularly convenient/foolproof or something? It seems like half the time there's an accident it's because Alternate Law was engaged for whatever reason and the pilots literally don't notice/know what's going on.

They're fool resistant, but not completely foolproof.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Any time I see "pilots were unable to notice/understand how aircraft configuration had changed, because of alternate law" in a report, I think of poor training.

I'm not a pilot though so I may be off the mark, but I thought understanding the ins and outs of your aircraft was Basics 101 and that the airlines should be trying to keep that bit of the brain pointy-sharp

Finger Prince
Jan 5, 2007


Eej posted:

I'm definitely sure this has been addressed in this thread before but I gotta ask again. Are Airbus's fly by wire systems particularly convenient/foolproof or something? It seems like half the time there's an accident it's because Alternate Law was engaged for whatever reason and the pilots literally don't notice/know what's going on.

It's more complicated than that, and I think it boils down to cascading events. Alternate law = up poo poo creek, direct law = no paddles. Once you get yourself into one of those situations, you're already having a bad day, and one of the pilots is going to be engaged in figuring out what's happening, while the other hand flies the aircraft. You have opportunities there for communication to break down between the pilots. The pilot flying no longer has normal flight envelope protections and probably stopped trusting his instruments because of whatever caused the flight law degradation, so may fly the aircraft into an unrecoverable attitude. The other pilot who normally could spot something like that and take over or say something is distracted by the failure. There's a valid argument that the visual cues of a moving control yoke and throttle levers might alert the pilot not flying to something amiss with what the other pilot is doing. If there's a shortcoming in the system, that's where it lies. The actual fly by wire system is very robust, to the point that experiencing alternate or direct law is something most pilots probably only ever see in their sporadic sim training (I don't even know if that's even part of their training in the sim, though I would hope so).

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
One of the findings for AF443 was that pilots didn't spend enough sim time practicing transitions in to alternate law.

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

One of the findings for AF443 was that pilots didn't spend enough sim time practicing transitions in to alternate law.

Training pilots is expensive, so why do it at all? :capitalism:

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.


http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN13V1S5

quote:

"Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4 billion. Cancel order!" said Trump in a Twitter message.

Just because he flies his own 757 around, he thinks he knows what it costs to build a hardened flying mobile command base.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Finger Prince posted:

It's more complicated than that, and I think it boils down to cascading events. Alternate law = up poo poo creek, direct law = no paddles. Once you get yourself into one of those situations, you're already having a bad day, and one of the pilots is going to be engaged in figuring out what's happening, while the other hand flies the aircraft. You have opportunities there for communication to break down between the pilots. The pilot flying no longer has normal flight envelope protections and probably stopped trusting his instruments because of whatever caused the flight law degradation, so may fly the aircraft into an unrecoverable attitude. The other pilot who normally could spot something like that and take over or say something is distracted by the failure. There's a valid argument that the visual cues of a moving control yoke and throttle levers might alert the pilot not flying to something amiss with what the other pilot is doing. If there's a shortcoming in the system, that's where it lies. The actual fly by wire system is very robust, to the point that experiencing alternate or direct law is something most pilots probably only ever see in their sporadic sim training (I don't even know if that's even part of their training in the sim, though I would hope so).

Didn't the same pitot tube failure happen to a northwest a330 and the pilots correctly recovered by doing nothing? (That's all the af443 crew needed to do: nothing)

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

"Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"
So Trump's saying he'll cancel the 747-8 AF1 order, which is being framed as him being fiscally sound, but most journalists haven't dug deeply enough to see that the plane won't be operational until 2020-2024.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Finger Prince posted:

It's more complicated than that, and I think it boils down to cascading events. Alternate law = up poo poo creek, direct law = no paddles. Once you get yourself into one of those situations, you're already having a bad day, and one of the pilots is going to be engaged in figuring out what's happening, while the other hand flies the aircraft. You have opportunities there for communication to break down between the pilots. The pilot flying no longer has normal flight envelope protections and probably stopped trusting his instruments because of whatever caused the flight law degradation, so may fly the aircraft into an unrecoverable attitude. The other pilot who normally could spot something like that and take over or say something is distracted by the failure. There's a valid argument that the visual cues of a moving control yoke and throttle levers might alert the pilot not flying to something amiss with what the other pilot is doing. If there's a shortcoming in the system, that's where it lies. The actual fly by wire system is very robust, to the point that experiencing alternate or direct law is something most pilots probably only ever see in their sporadic sim training (I don't even know if that's even part of their training in the sim, though I would hope so).

It seems like they could install a blinking red light or something to indicate Alternate Law.

I'm an idea guy, Airbus. Hire me.

Generation Internet
Jan 18, 2009

Where angels and generals fear to tread.
I dunno poo poo about airplanes but it astounds me that there have been multiple cases of dudes stalling commercial airliners without even realizing it

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.


Once you get yourself into a state where you distrust your instruments, often times anything is suspect and can get ignored.

See Birgenair Flight 301.

TTerrible
Jul 15, 2005

Godholio posted:

It seems like they could install a blinking red light or something to indicate Alternate Law.

I'm an idea guy, Airbus. Hire me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFyWBLeM7Q

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

bull3964 posted:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN13V1S5


Just because he flies his own 757 around, he thinks he knows what it costs to build a hardened flying mobile command base.

Speaking of, I kinda assumed that he was gonna try and get the TRUMP 757 turned into Air Force 1 instead of using the ol' 747

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

Nebakenezzer posted:

Speaking of, I kinda assumed that he was gonna try and get the TRUMP 757 turned into Air Force 1 instead of using the ol' 747

Wouldn't that both (a) be freakishly expensive and (b) put classified technology and material into nominally private, non-government-controlled concerns?

Sam Hall
Jun 29, 2003

Nebakenezzer posted:

Speaking of, I kinda assumed that he was gonna try and get the TRUMP 757 turned into Air Force 1 instead of using the ol' 747

Nah, he doesn't really have a reason to settle for anything less than a gold-plated A380 at this point.

Murgos
Oct 21, 2010

Davin Valkri posted:

Wouldn't that both (a) be freakishly expensive and (b) put classified technology and material into nominally private, non-government-controlled concerns?

What part of Donald J Trump is it that you don't understand?

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

"Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

Davin Valkri posted:

Wouldn't that both (a) be freakishly expensive and (b) put classified technology and material into nominally private, non-government-controlled concerns?

Yes, but WHY NOT?!?!

Not to mention the fact that his 757 doesn't have the legs needed to get from A>B over the VC-25, and it doesn't have IFR capability or current anti-missile countermeasures. I'm sure he'll have it permanently hangared at Andrews and maintained for "free" using Air Force MX staff.

Duke Chin
Jan 11, 2002

Roger That:
MILK CRATES INBOUND

:siren::siren::siren::siren:
- FUCK THE HABS -

Sam Hall posted:

Nah, he doesn't really have a reason to settle for anything less than a gold-plated A380 at this point.

https://youtu.be/LgF0C-yWID4

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

Davin Valkri posted:

Wouldn't that both (a) be freakishly expensive and (b) put classified technology and material into nominally private, non-government-controlled concerns?

So you're listing two more reasons for why Trump will want that to happen. The first reason being merely:

Craptacular posted:

Knowing Trump, this is probably just a scam to try and get the government to pay him for using his 757.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

BIG HEADLINE posted:

So Trump's saying he'll cancel the 747-8 AF1 order, which is being framed as him being fiscally sound, but most journalists haven't dug deeply enough to see that the plane won't be operational until 2020-2024.

This is also ignoring the bloated costs of keeping the current 747 flying. Which by 2020 will likely outpace the costs of a new one.

He's a god damned moron who overstated the program cost by 4x.

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck

BIG HEADLINE posted:

and it doesn't have IFR capability

Really?

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

"Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"
He already probably plans to hangar his 757 at Andrews, have it upgraded to DoD standards, and maintained "for free" by Air Force personnel. As I said in the TFR thread, his 757 doesn't meet the requirements for a presidential aircraft since it lacks EMP hardening, an adequate SATCOM system, in-flight refueling capability (which would require Air Force pilots to fly it), and an adequate anti-missile countermeasure suite.


In-flight refueling, not instrument flight rules. >.>

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Dec 6, 2016

The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck
Well that's all well and good, but IFR means "Instrument Flight Rules" and I'm sure that plane can fly in clouds just fine.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

The Ferret King posted:

Well that's all well and good, but IFR means "Instrument Flight Rules" and I'm sure that plane can fly in clouds just fine.

Yeah, that confused me too.

Duke Chin
Jan 11, 2002

Roger That:
MILK CRATES INBOUND

:siren::siren::siren::siren:
- FUCK THE HABS -

BIG HEADLINE posted:

In-flight refueling, not instrument flight rules. >.>

The Ferret King posted:

Well that's all well and good, but IFR means "Instrument Flight Rules" and I'm sure that plane can fly in clouds just fine.

Quick someone get LockMart and/or Boeing on the phone to put together an IFRIFR package!

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

"Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

Duke Chin posted:

Quick someone get LockMart and/or Boeing on the phone to put together an IFRIFR package!

No no no. You have to ~think outside the box and shift the paradigm~!

IFR2

Duke Chin
Jan 11, 2002

Roger That:
MILK CRATES INBOUND

:siren::siren::siren::siren:
- FUCK THE HABS -

BIG HEADLINE posted:

No no no. You have to ~think outside the box and shift the paradigm~!

IFR2

Pfffft That's just the marketing buzzwords for the RFP

Tsuru
May 12, 2008

hobbesmaster posted:

(That's all the af443 crew needed to do: nothing)
This is actually a very common, often bandied-about and frankly dangerous misconception about AF447, that if the pilots simply let go of the stick the A330 would have sorted itself out.

Actually, it would still have crashed in exactly the same way. From the moment the aircraft started climbing in alternate law, active nose down input would have been required to bring the climb rate to zero and keep the aircraft from backing itself into a corner. If nothing is done in a climb in alternate law without low speed protection, the aircraft will eventually climb so high it will run out of performance and need more and more nose-up trim to maintain the climb angle. Without input form the pilots, it will run the stab to the stop and make the aircraft stall at extreme AOA, just like AF447 did (and, I suspect, Air Asia 8501)

Tsuru fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Dec 6, 2016

drgitlin
Jul 25, 2003
luv 2 get custom titles from a forum that goes into revolt when its told to stop using a bad word.

BIG HEADLINE posted:

So Trump's saying he'll cancel the 747-8 AF1 order, which is being framed as him being fiscally sound, but most journalists haven't dug deeply enough to see that the plane won't be operational until 2020-2024.

Boeing don't even have a contract to build any yet. Just a $170M design contract.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

One of the findings for AF443 was that pilots didn't spend enough sim time practicing transitions in to alternate law.

And one of the findings for AA8501 was that the Airbus's loving flight crew training manual states that the protections make upset recovery training unnecessary.

You know, until you fail over into alternate law and now you have no idea how to fly a plane.

Tsuru
May 12, 2008
Seeing as the stab plot wasn't included in the final report I guess we'll never know what happened to 8501 :rolleyes:

azflyboy
Nov 9, 2005

Davin Valkri posted:

Wouldn't that both (a) be freakishly expensive and (b) put classified technology and material into nominally private, non-government-controlled concerns?

"Spending large amounts of money belonging to other people" is sort the entire point of Donald Trump.


I'm sure if Boeing installed stripper poles, a dedicated comb-over maintenance room, and YUUGE amounts of faux marble and gold trim, Trump would have no problem with the deal.

Great Enoch
Mar 23, 2011

CarForumPoster posted:

Yea by reset you mean flip breakers cause "we saw a guy do it once on the ground" ...https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/circuit-board-solder-crack-cited-in-indonesia-airasi-419593/

People absolutely love to bring all sorts of crypto-racist "cultural factors" poo poo up whenever an asian airline has an accident, but I always find it funny when you point out that the pilot who caused this accident was also French.

Captain Postal
Sep 16, 2007
Trump will delay the order until the 748 line is shutdown, and President Biden will have no choice but to order a new A380, then the GOP will have 8 years to go on about spending money on foreign products, sending jobs offshore, and can we really trust the security and secrecy?

bloops
Dec 31, 2010

Thanks Ape Pussy!
I watched Sully last night. As a movie, it's essentially empty. What he did was both masterful and heroic. There was no conflict to mine outside of Sully's own internal mental struggle, which wasn't exactly rife with tension.

The mishap sequence itself is lifeless. I have trouble figuring out if the choice to depict the event as quietly tepid was to highlight how calm Sully's demeanor was or to not risk losing the audience in a shouting wall of alarms and noise.

Sully was way better than that garbage movie American Sniper. He's a far better human being than Chris Kyle.

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BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

"Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

holocaust bloopers posted:

I watched Sully last night. As a movie, it's essentially empty. What he did was both masterful and heroic. There was no conflict to mine outside of Sully's own internal mental struggle, which wasn't exactly rife with tension.

The mishap sequence itself is lifeless. I have trouble figuring out if the choice to depict the event as quietly tepid was to highlight how calm Sully's demeanor was or to not risk losing the audience in a shouting wall of alarms and noise.

Sully was way better than that garbage movie American Sniper. He's a far better human being than Chris Kyle.

Major Kong's write-up about the event (since he opens with saying he hasn't seen the movie) was more interesting about the movie itself. Other than that, it felt too long by 30-45 minutes, and I think Eastwood spent a little too much fantasizing what a fully-fueled A320 would look like crashing into Manhattan.

That article, for those who missed it the first time: http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/14/1577211/-The-A320-and-the-Hudson

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