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Stickarts posted:Yea the illusion of choice, wherein the options are "live" or "die" still means coercion still means rape still means I can't believe I have to be explaining why Negan is the bad guy here still means good god what is wrong with my life. Excuse me but you got the loving choices wrong so I corrected you. And you still seem to have it wrong because it's not "live" or "die". It's "work for points" like everyone else has to, or "be my wife, want for nothing" and it's loving selfish for them to even consider it let alone take him up on the offer. Not only does the choice involve betraying their partner, but they no longer have to contribute towards everyone elses survival. What being Negan's wife actually means I cannot speculate to. Maybe they have sex with him and they don't want to but they do it anyway. They need to go back to their husband. They need to pick the first choice, where they work for points and are no longer an exception. Yes Negan is a powerful dude. Yes he has a lot of wives. No he is not a rapist.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:52
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Eyochigan posted:They need to go back to their husband. They need to pick the first choice, where they work for points and are no longer an exception. Except Dwight's girl who very much did it under "...or I kill Dwight."
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Dec 7, 2016 01:54
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Eyochigan posted:If Carl shot Negan, he would be dead right now. He should be dead right now And? This was a suicide attack from the start, Carl had plenty of opportunity to get the deed done.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:54
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She stole medicine from Negan, a little bit different than asking for it. If she was a man she would have been kilt probably. I mean maybe you have a point, I don't feel like going back and rewatching/reading that part after how long it took to find that example from 117.. but I'm pretty certain there's a sense of debt from that. Keep the medicine, be my wife, Dwight, be cool. MeLKoR posted:And? This was a suicide attack from the start, Carl had plenty of opportunity to get the deed done. In the comics, and in the TV show, it starts with Carl opening fire on dudes, killing several, while Negan hides behind them. I do not think Negan was making it easy for Carl. We also see a very limited perspective of what Carl would actually be able to shoot, since this is a TV show with cameras, and a comic book with panels. Beyond having no shot, there's the human element of taking a life when the person is acknowledging you and not threatening you back. It's easy to shoot scared soldiers running to defend themselves. It's not so easy to shoot someone in a calm situation where everyone is already alert, let alone when that person is talking to you and de escalating the situation from violence. Even if they've done horrendous things to your friends, they could have had their men tear you apart and yet you're both talking. But someone else said this is a TV show and that doesn't count. So what else is left in this overdrawn argument? As an elitist comic reader I just want to say to stay tuned. Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 01:56
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If only those immoral women had the modesty to say no to the dictator who kills people for fun.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:58
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Yes, because Negan allowing women to go back to their old husbands without any repercussions is entirely in character. And yes. When people who work for points have already been shown to be willing to run away and, upon capture, beg for death, the choices are indeed "life" or "death". Among all the other reasons that make Negan a terrible, no good, very bad person, "rapist" is deffo on the list. Or were the tears of the teenaged "wife" tears of joy, and the rest of the sullen, ashen, graven looks on his "wives" just them being sad he couldn't spend more time with them? You're weird, man. The bigger play here is that if Negan's aversion to sexual violence in the comics is retained that Negan himself gets to decide what is or isn't sexual violence according to his own self-interest. Which is entirely within character for him. Stickarts fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 01:59
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Eyochigan posted:Excuse me but you got the loving choices wrong so I corrected you. And you still seem to have it wrong because it's not "live" or "die". I don't know if you're going for some sort of MRA gimmick or you genuinely can't conceive a "it would be a shame for your family to end up working on the zombie moat every day, if only I had some reason to go easy on them...  "MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 02:05
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Stickarts posted:Yes, because Negan allowing women to go back to their old husbands without any repercussions is entirely in character. Listen dude, I was just trying to help you understand because you didn't seem to even know what the decision involved. You seem content in assuming exactly what Negan thinks, even when we as viewers probably don't have the full story whether it was presented or not. Did you read the comics? I assume not but I would encourage you to seek them out if you want to know what Negan thinks. Re: yer edit: I have seen no evidence that he rapes his wives, and only referenced loving his wives in the sense that he wouldn't be loving any of them since he would be too busy with Carl. and maybe spoilers/background There's that example of him making someone his wife just so he could give medicine to her without the point system. I don't think he did it to gently caress her, I think there's a part of him that cares about women. Perhaps all women. Crazy, right. Maybe it's something to do with his wife from before the apocalypse, he had one of those too. MeLKoR posted:I don't know if you're going for some sort of MRA gimmick or you genuinely can't conceive a "it would be a shame for your family to end up working on the zombie moat every day, if only I had some reason to go easy on them... He did not say that. Show this to me. Get a transcript or something. Don't just make poo poo up.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:07
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Eyochigan posted:Excuse me but you got the loving choices wrong so I corrected you. And you still seem to have it wrong because it's not "live" or "die". What the gently caress is wrong with you?
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Dec 7, 2016 02:07
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Alright peace out dudes I only meant to respond to one or two people today and I obviously have an unpopular opinion based on information that is not available to the main TV watching audience. Fuk negan. edit: vv No I'm pretty sure it's because I've read 40 or 50 issues beyond where the current storyline is, and have a lot more background information to read on than what you have seen in the two or three episodes he's appeared in so far. What's with the MRA/PUA poo poo, I'm not insulting you guys I'm just trying to have a discussion and help you guys understand some of the weird decisions on this show. :/ edit2: my last stand MeLKoR posted:Are we talking about the same man that routinely murders and tortures people? Have you any reason to believe coercion is beneath him? Everybody else in here seemed to catch on "The Implication" of "you can even all do the same job" except you. The women certainly seemed to understand, the were scared shitless. Yeah except he really doesn't like people raping women. He'll kill people in awful ways, and make all sorts of rules to keep people under his control, but he will kill his own men if they rape. So I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he's not a hypocrite. Again, until I've seen otherwise. Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 02:09
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Eyochigan posted:Alright peace out dudes I only meant to respond to one or two people today and I obviously have an unpopular opinion based on information that is not available to the main TV watching audience. Your opinion is unpopular not due to the rest of the thread's "lack of information" but based on your lack of human understanding and decency. Hope that helps. Might want to put down the PUA manuals for a bit and learn to interact with people.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:10
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Eyochigan posted:In the comics, and in the TV show, it starts with Carl opening fire on dudes, killing several, while Negan hides behind them. I do not think Negan was making it easy for Carl. We also see a very limited perspective of what Carl would actually be able to shoot, since this is a TV show with cameras, and a comic book with panels. Beyond having no shot, there's the human element of taking a life when the person is acknowledging you and not threatening you back. It's easy to shoot scared soldiers running to defend themselves. It's not so easy to shoot someone in a calm situation where everyone is already alert, let alone when that person is talking to you and de escalating the situation from violence. Even if they've done horrendous things to your friends, they could have had their men tear you apart and yet you're both talking. 1st I don't care about what happens in the comic 2nd that guy murdered two of his friends, threatened to cut off his arm and humiliated his father 3rd he went there with the express purpose of murdering him even if it meant his likely death We aren't talking about some conscript firing into some random enemy soldier he has no reason to hate on a personal level, this was an assassination mission from the start. Eyochigan posted:He did not say that. Show this to me. Get a transcript or something. Don't just make poo poo up.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:12
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lol Tell me more about how this is analogous to taking advantage of strippers.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:13
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They were called "comfort women" because they enjoyed more comfort than the general population. They should go back to their husbands and work the rice fields instead like honorable women.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:19
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MeLKoR posted:They were called "comfort women" because they enjoyed more comfort than the general population. They should go back to their husbands and work the rice fields instead like honorable women. I heard about this on CBC the other morning. Those were children and young women that were kidnapped off the streets and used to placate the rapey soldiers so they would not rape other japanese people in the streets. Terrible time in history, still no apology from the Japanese government. Living in a community based on taking everyone elses poo poo, and dividing it up among themselves in a system of points earned by doing terrible poo poo. An offer to not have to do work in exchange for sex is more in line with prostitution than sexual slavery. edit: Oh that's it. That's the last straw. Don't insult the comic. 
Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 02:23
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The real message here is that the comic is, amazingly, even stupider than the show.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:26
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ddiddles posted:I was wondering why I didn't remember any of the "Previously on the Walking Dead" clips in this episode, and then remembered I got so bored with season 6 that I just stopped watching halfway through.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:26
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A True Jar Jar Fan posted:The real message here is that the comic is, amazingly, even stupider than the show. I don't know, a lot of poo poo like how the thing with Carl went down is far less stupid in the comics. Instead of impressing Negan with his badassery all I could think of was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFZTRBoZGY
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Dec 7, 2016 02:27
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Eyochigan posted:I heard about this on CBC the other morning. Those were children and young women that were kidnapped off the streets and used to placate the rapey soldiers so they would not rape other japanese people in the streets. Terrible time in history, still no apology from the Japanese government. You seem to know very little of the dynamics of wars and occupation by enemy forces. You also seem to have a pretty hosed up view about women, what motivates them and what constitutes coercion.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:30
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MeLKoR posted:You seem to know very little of the dynamics of wars and occupation by enemy forces. You also seem to have a pretty hosed up view about women, what motivates them and what constitutes coercion. ? I just wanted to say that I know what you were talking about and that the reference didn't go over my head. The way you brought it up had a smug sense about it, how dare you use an example of a real tragedy in an internet argument about a fictional tv series. You can say I have hosed up views about women but that doesn't make it true. I infact love women. I love people in general. I still don't see where that idea is coming from though, all I've said is that these women who are Negan's wives, should not be sleeping with Negan. They should be with their husbands, supporting them, earning points alongside them or whatever. (And then someone comes along and says Negan would never let a woman work for points and would sooner kill them and everyone else working for points, and that he rapes every woman he encounters in his group, because he's negan and everyone follows his lead) In the issue 117 spoiler I made he specifically mentions harmony among communities and returning to a sense of civilization and how being a monster for the sake of it destroys everything they're working so hard to build. Just an anecdote I guess.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:38
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Oh my god what the gently caress did I just read here
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Dec 7, 2016 02:44
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If a manager tells his female employee that either she fucks him or she will never get promoted did he use his power to coerce her into sex knowing that she needed the money to feed her family or is it fair for say that for all intents and purposes she is in fact a prostitute that sold her body for monetary compensation? e: how the gently caress can you not grasp that women don't just decide to leave their families and go gently caress the warlord and might be motivated by something other than creature comforts? MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 02:49
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These aren't intelligent stories. Just cuz an author has a character poo poo exposition does not take anything away from the story the author is actually telling, regardless if said author is smart enough to understand the story they're actually telling. Negan is the worst parts of a pimp and an abusive spouse, dude. I also like it when he's on the tv. Re-telling ten thousand and seven of 'why it's okay to like bad things'. No need to defend it.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:50
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What a ho.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:52
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Maybe the women in TWD just need to learn to bootstrap better.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:54
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MeLKoR posted:If a manager tells his female employee that either she fucks him or she will never get promoted did he use his power to coerce her into sex knowing that she needed the money to feed her family or is it fair for say that for all intents and purposes she is in fact a prostitute that sold her body for monetary compensation? This is still a false equivelancy though. They're not getting a promotion. They're getting a free ride in a group based on personal merit. This is equal to working a job, boss saying "sleep with me, live with me, be my wife, and I will pay for everything you need in life" and then quitting your job. Meanwhile your husband is waiting at home, and if you go back to him, your boss comes and asks you "Look, you cheated on me. You hosed up. I'll give you a choice. You can stay with your husband who you obviously love, or you can come back and live with me and want for nothing. Only thing is I'll have to grievously injure your husband in order to test your devotion." See how it almost rhymes with the version on the tv show? In Negan's camp, you work, or you're nothing. Most societies operate on this principle. He just has no tolerance for welfare, until it's a woman asking. Either they have something to offer him, or he feels an obligation to look after them I have no idea why. Here's Negan comic: His wife dies from cancer, it's very sad. probably feels that pain when he sees other women in need. Note: I do not share Negan's mind or opinions or support anything this fictional character does in this universe. jfood posted:Negan is the worst parts of a pimp and an abusive spouse, dude. I appreciate this perspective. Negan is the ultimate anti-hero in ways Rick could never be. He's also a bad guy. There have been worse bad guys, though. Compare him to the governor, the cannibals, it's black and white. Rick killed like 50 of Negan's men, some in cold blood, and for that he killed two of Rick's people. Yeah they were probably our favourite characters but Negan didn't really know that. He didn't even know we were watching. Look back to the Governor, how he actively sought out people and killed them, what he was trying to do with Rick's group, all the people he's massacred for nothing (his own militia on the bus). And the cannibals, jesus christ. No. Just feed us, that is all you can do. gently caress Negan for bashing in Glenn and Abraham, but they have so much more to make up for still. Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 02:57
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Eyochigan posted:This is still a false equivelancy though. They're not getting a promotion. They're getting a free ride in a group based on personal merit. Negan is not some calm collected dude presenting a social contract. When he talks to people about "being his wife" he very well might be carrying a bat he regularly uses to bash people's heads in. Negan is a scary and violent man. Many people don't say "no" to scary violent people who might kill someone you care about at the drop of a hat. If you feel like you can't say no, that's rape. Do you think sex is just a transfer of value by any chance?
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Dec 7, 2016 03:03
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Negan isn't an anti-hero in any sense of the word, he's presented so far as a cartoon mustache twirling villain.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:05
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Poe's Law.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:05
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 The face of an uncoerced woman.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:08
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edit ^^ jfc. context. is that the one that was about to rat on her friend, or the one that was going to say yes to burning her husbands face off? remember her husband is losing his face because she is refusing to stay with her husband and is returning to neganJossiRossi posted:Do you think sex is just a transfer of value by any chance? I would be willing to bet there is a percentage of the population that has no problem with considering sex as a transcation in some situations. Transactional sex is actually outlawed, which I believe is more damaging than having freedom over your own body. In the traditional sense, no. Sex is for when you love someone. Are you going to ask me about sex out of wedlock too? JossiRossi posted:Negan is not some calm collected dude presenting a social contract. When he talks to people about "being his wife" he very well might be carrying a bat he regularly uses to bash people's heads in. Negan is a scary and violent man. Many people don't say "no" to scary violent people who might kill someone you care about at the drop of a hat. If you feel like you can't say no, that's rape. That is how the TV show is presenting it. Yes. Sometimes things are created for dramatic effect. I don't think we're going to find out much more about the backstory of his wives and how each of them made that decision in the first place, because fans would revolt. All I want to say is that there is reason to believe that he might care about his wives. At worst, he's allowing them to pretend to love him because it's just a game to him. They were the ones who made the choice to cheat on their actual husband in the first place, just to get some extra food or not have to go outside and do work. He makes the fairest deal you can expect in that situation, to return to normalcy and work like everyone else, or to continue being lazy and let your husband get ironed for your hubris. It's sociopathic, but only because they make that choice. It's not like Jigsaw presenting them with an impossible task. Just work for me, like everyone else. A True Jar Jar Fan posted:Negan isn't an anti-hero in any sense of the word, he's presented so far as a cartoon mustache twirling villain. no you. Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 03:16
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48 unread posts drat what's popping in TWD thread... ... Oh. Another goon in TVIV trying to explain what is or isn't rape. Jfc.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:20
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Eyochigan posted:They were the ones who made the choice to cheat on their actual husband in the first place, just to get some extra food or not have to go outside and do work. You need to grow up or get over your ex or whatever is your major malfunction.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:28
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How is "be my wife or be enslaved" not coercion? I mean Jesus it might as well be the definition.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:28
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No but guys I'm 50 comics ahead of you. That means I know more about coercion than you.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:30
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Stickarts posted:Negan's version of choice is "do what I want you to do or suffer/die". He has made that abundantly clear. Eyochigan posted:Yes Negan is a powerful dude. Yes he has a lot of wives. No he is not a rapist. Just because he doesn't believe it, and he hides behind all sorts of justifications, and even in the comics explicitly defines himself as not-okay-with-rape as a matter of principle doesn't mean... he's not obviously a really hosed up serial rapist! He is practically a walking allegory for coercive misogynist entitled fucks in positions of power who feel so entitled to their abuse that they don't even see it as abuse. He puts the women in a situation where they have to say "yes" and then hums a little self assured tune that he's a good person while he rapes them. You're doing a great job explaining his worldview, and how he sees things, but you're failing to see that... he's wrong! It's cool that you understand him, but please don't actually believe him! I think Negan is a really interesting character for all the reasons you say, but don't for a minute forget that having "reasons" for his actions don't make them one iota less hosed. There may be "more to him" than people are giving him credit for, but it's a whole different thing to say he's "not that bad" as a result. (I'm saying this with a lot of exclamation marks and insults, but seriously, I think I get you, and you were only trying to explain Negan, and that's cool... but you made a pretty serious mistake when your explanation became an excuse!) Eiba fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 03:35
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In the last 500 years, the Fourth Stimpire has dominated four systems, which it has united into one starzone, Stimsis. The Fourth Stimpire has origins from the Ten Empire War in which 10 of the United Stimpires revolted against each rules. All empires except for the fourth swore freedom upon their citizens. There is no free speech in the Fourth Stimpire, and all self-controlled transportation has been made illegal without undergoing painful medical verification methods, in which arteries are severed without pain resistant, operated entirely by machines. The way they work claim to be the most hygenic and healthy way possible, but these machines often rub against pain points, causing great deals of pain to patients. The heart is then extracted from the body and placed into a glass grinding machine. Various energy centers are also dissected and replaced with dangerous transplants. After the painful, 52 hour surgical procedure, patients will then have to use a fused guidance tool, which pumps painful resistors into the body every 2 hours. The pain they have caused is so bad, the victim would freeze in a tense position. They would then collapse afterwards. Sexual stimulation in any way within the grounds of the Fourth Stimpire is strictly prohibited, and anyone detected even touching their sexual organs will be subjected to a penectomy or if the offender was a female, they would then have a razor inserted into their ovaries. They would pump a blue solution into the womb until the stitchings burst. Offenders would also be forced to show their operated areas in public, and they would always harass and punch them to a pulp, against their will. Otherwise, offenders would be tazed with the worst type of electricity in the systematic district, causing so much pain, the victim would scream and flail in madness. The pain would also triple every second, but no death would be incurred. This is also used in combat against enemy units, which is why all UEE forces must wear the upgraded suit to block this effect. However, enertainment is also questionable in UEE grounds. Sporting events end with the losing team being rounded into a grinder and shredded on live television, boxing matches end with the loser having their hands removed without anasthesia, flight races would end with the losers having their arms and legs removed, then being injected with insanity, for entertainment. People are also forced into these events, by undergoing a painful 127 hour procedure which involves tweaking the muscles so they will not listen to brain commands, and then having a painful drug injected which also causes madness if the player is not sporting. This is all for entertainment, and anyone not watching any of it during sporting times and cheering for the winning team, they will be imprisoned into galactic camps. Snuff films are also broadcast, and actors are actually murdered just for entertainment. Stealth droids also guide these forced actors into behaving exactly as the director dreams, otherwise they will be punished by being placed into a macerator and having their execution written into the film. Any film that does not feature someone being murdered will be burned and the entire crew behind it will be executed in the most grotesque way possible - vivisection. All executions are broadcast, and anyone who misses even a millisecond, even by blinking, will be executed. All citizens must boo to the person being executed, and the family is gathered to be injected with eternators, which cause pain forever, making them immoral but feeling the pain tenfold every millisecond. They cannot pass out, but they will feel like it forever. Conquests by this Stimpire end in the planet being razed, and all the citizens being executed in the same way as their citizens are. The planet is then destroyed and all remnants of it are removed, and any memories of it will be erased instantly from civil minds. People who are also killed are also erased from memories, and all memories of them, including toys and pictures, are destroyed. Prisoners undergo 40,000 years of relentless and endless labor, and anyone not complying is sentenced to the eternator injection. All prisoners injected with eternators are placed into capsules and launched into far space, then the room is closed tight to ensure maximum insanity. Some prisoners are also subjected to the removal of blood, the lungs, the liver, the genitals, the skeleton, the muscles, the eyes, and even the injection of pressure. Prisoners sentenced to pressure chambers are locked in until they are inflated to a high level. The decompression is then stopped to make sure they are inflated and uncomfortable. Children born on the 14th of July are subjected to the removal of their skeleton and an implant of a silver liquid to replace it. The nervous sysem is also injected in various parts to ensure it is five times more sensitive than the average. Restaurants also are ordered to serve civil meat, and anyone attending must give themself up to be cooked into a grotesque meal. They are cooked alive, undergoing extreme pain, and are then subjected to industrial grinders and blenders. The Stimpire orders at least 1 million citizens to be dispatched every day, as they are afraid the population may overthrow them. But only one planet is cared for, and the rest are banned from eating, drinking, talking, using technology, touching anyone, wearing unauthorized clothes, touching buildings, or walking a centimeter out of designated routes. Civil enforcers are on every planet, and they are engineered so that they are 40 times larger than the 300 quadrillion population. At least 7 billion die every 12 hours under this rule. Thoughts are also surveyed, and anyone who does not think anything to loving the Stimpire with more than their capabilities will be sentenced to a prison. Prisoners who are punished for this violation will meet their greatest fear, only to have it amplified so they will turn insane as they imagine it exactly as they fear it. They then undergo a painful extraction of all fluids, to be replaced by a toxin which causes permanent irritation. The unknown substance keeps the subject aging normally, except they will never die. Prisoners punished in this way are unable to be reverted, despite many efforts, and they will never be able to be disposed. The sickening truths have been revealed only today, and invigilation teams are still investigating the truths without setting foot in the galactic space of this sickening empire.
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Dec 7, 2016 03:40
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Negan 100% is a rapist
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Dec 7, 2016 04:23
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I think that Negan doesn't want to die, but worries more about what happens to him if he lives like the people he oppresees. So he acts the way he does because the alternative is being the people under him. If he dies then it is better than being run under a copy Negan.
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Dec 7, 2016 04:23
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Eiba posted:You're doing a great job explaining his worldview, and how he sees things, but you're failing to see that... he's wrong! It's cool that you understand him, but please don't actually believe him! Yeah I had to specifically make a note a few posts earlier where I said I do not support Negan's actions as a human being living in this universe. I appreciate what you said here, it's very easy to latch onto a controversial post and forget it's a person's sharing their thoughts. My main argument, my contention, was with whether his wives were literally "sexual slaves" or if it was more of a situation where they're trading themselves for an easy living. If Negan would literally kill anyone that didn't agree to be his wife and sleep with him, yeah that's psychopathic (as is pretty much everything else he does).. My perspective, which isn't by any means an absolute or to be taken as anything more than speculation, is that there is another motive driving Negan and that altruism is it's own reward. Again I recognize this is controversial to a lot of people because of what Negan does to most other people we see. I'm not claiming that it's a joy to be one of Negan's wives either, but all I ever saw in the comics was a group of women dressed scantily, and nothing except his comment to Carl about not screwing his wives. I feel like the comics would make a bigger point about it, given how bad Negan is supposed to be and what's already in the comics. Ultimately it's whether or not he screws his wives that we're arguing about, and I don't think there's evidence either way. edit: ^^ That's the right idea. Negan has to act like the craziest motherfucker on the planet in order to get people to respect and follow him, out of loyalty, fear, or otherwise. Negan wasn't an rear end in a top hat in his backstory, and he was a coach or something before all this. Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 04:36
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