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KoRMaK posted:I understand the show isn't above criticism, but criticizing something because it wasn't realisitic enough is missing the point of "did it serve the story or experience as a viewer" The bad action scene did not serve the story and brought me out of the experience as a viewer. Not by much! I just though 'oh this is kind of stupid' as I was watching and enjoyed the rest of the episode. Let me be pedantic for a bit and break it down because some of it WAS good. The first part where they ambush some guards and steal the guns was great! They have the element of surprise, it's in the dark, there's the cool bit with the room full of deactivated hosts and a fun throat slit. It's also when we get the reaction to how awesome P90's are. Good stuff, great scene. Then a bit later they're in Samurai World and there are audible alarms going off, so you'd think any security that shows up would be a little more on alert. Hector walks through a door, shoots the front guard in a group of like 6 of them, then lets off ~four more bursts without anyone even returning fire. This is the bad part, and when it gets distracting. The guards do not appear to even be trying to kill the rebellious hosts. There's one particular shot where Hector slides out of frame as three guards approach with guns pointed. Why are they not shooting, or even shouting the deactivation commands? Armitage ambushes and kills three more from behind the pillar. Cool moves, element of surprise again. Shows she's an effective ambusher some more. Neat. Then two come out from behind a glass door where they could 100% see what just happened and again do not even try to shoot at her. This is when it starts to really take me out of the scene and makes me wonder if I missed something about how security shouldn't use lethal force for some reason. Hector shoots them both in the back, but they absolutely had clear lines of fine at Armitage for a good 5 seconds, an armed threat who has just murdered three people. What does this bit show us about the characters and how does it advance the experience? We then get the gods are pussies line, great. More guards come out and actually shoot this time, framed in a way that makes it look like SOMEone on Maeve's team might have just taken a bullet. But nope, they missed entirely and didn't even manage to break any of the giant glass windows all around everyone. At this point I'm honestly wondering if the whole thing is just a mock-up for some reason or part of a narrative for Maeve's benefit and all the tension is gone. If it was supposed to be exciting or dramatic in any way, it failed. This does not make the entire episode bad! It just stands out as a bad element. Also then Maeve and the others go up an escalator and there are what appear to be a bunch of humans just sitting around not at all worried about the gunshots or the alarm a floor (or multiple floors) below them. This bothered me too. It was the worst part of the episode and did not make it look like Hector and Armitage are incredibly effective killers, just that their human opponents were completely useless or deliberately committing suicide by host. Maybe that was the point, but if so it missed the mark by being unclear as to it's intentions. Rest of the episode and in the whole season was great though.
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Dec 7, 2016 06:54
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NmareBfly posted:The bad action scene did not serve the story and brought me out of the experience as a viewer  Would you perhaps explain to us your experience in gunfights so we can all be amazed?
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Dec 7, 2016 06:57
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I don't have any, but the basic question isn't 'why were they not taking cover' or some tacticalol poo poo it's literally 'why didn't they shoot at the people who were killing them.'
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Dec 7, 2016 07:01
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coyo7e posted:
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Dec 7, 2016 07:02
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NmareBfly posted:I don't have any, but the basic question isn't 'why were they not taking cover' or some tacticalol poo poo it's literally 'why didn't they shoot at the people who were killing them.' Bingo! If the show is otherwise built in such a realistic way that "The guards are being so awful at this, it has to be staged" is what comes to my mind, when I'm not a TFR sperg and usually give shows a lot of leeway on this sort of poo poo, there's a problem. Perhaps it's human nature to focus on the bad things even in something that is good. Perhaps Dr Ford was right.
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Dec 7, 2016 07:09
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Security guards were hosts they were programmed not to fight back properly in order to thin out their numbers.
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Dec 7, 2016 07:22
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It's annoying because it edges into territory where I'm not sure if it was a case of bad directing or if it was deliberate in-universe. People obsess over tiny details in some shows like this that turn out to be production errors and I can't tell if that's what is happening here or not. Everything else is carefully enough constructed that I could honestly believe that the guards were all hosts but whose benefit would that be for? Felix? I apologize for the up above but it's just because I re-watched the section as I was writing it since I wanted to better put my finger on why it was so distracting. It really was just two bits -- Hector shooting some guards out in the open with no return fire, then the two guards approaching Armitage from behind like they plan to tell her to put her hands up and capture her alive or something. With different direction on those 5-second slivers I would probably think the rest was fine.
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Dec 7, 2016 07:33
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KoRMaK posted:I dont know what guise "worthy of criticism" here practically means - you're not giving notes to the production staff, so whats the goal? KoRMaK posted:LEts make another thread, WestWorld: Uh actually, its bad Jesus dude, stop trying to police the thread just because people are posting opinions that are different from your own. I think Westworld S1 is one of the strongest seasons of television that HBO has ever done, but that doesn't mean it was flawless, and discussing aspects of the show that were handled clumsily doesn't take away from the rest of it. (True Detective had a fantastic first season too, even if some people found the ending to be a bit weak. I can see their point but I don't think it takes away from how great the rest of the episodes were. Similar to here.)
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Dec 7, 2016 07:57
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I understand I guess why the hosts have to suffer to become "conscious" but why does Ford want to release these hosts onto the world? It seems like from the outer shots of the Dolas laboratories (from when Maeve first walks around the Dolas labs), it's on a planet off world somewhere. Why not just build WestWorld without making it a park with Arnold? And play god or let them build their own civilization without the influence of humans in the first place? Why does Ford want the hosts to invade the main world in the first place like a pyschopath? He couldn't just build these hosts off planet without letting the public know in the first place with Arnold? Arnold wanted to not let the park open it seems and let the hosts live in peace. But Ford wanted to introduce suffering. I guess if you don't got funding then let them be on their own little world after killing all of the board members? I guess I don't see the benefit of Ford letting civilization know about these hosts and then punishing them about it unless he was some of psychopath. And even then, I feel like that's lazy misdirection by Nolan. Rabid Snake fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 08:16
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Wait what shots show it off planet?
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Dec 7, 2016 08:20
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socialsecurity posted:Wait what shots show it off planet? It looks like its off on a moonbase or something when Maeve first walks around the labs. She walks through some sort of outside area where it looks like they are in space. edit: Also, Lee asks Theresa "When do you get to rotate home again?" edit edit: Also forgot about when Sylvester tells Felix he's not an "orbital launch engineer" Rabid Snake fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 08:22
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Rabid Snake posted:It looks like its off on a moonbase or something when Maeve first walks around the labs. She walks through some sort of outside area where it looks like they are in space. That was just inside the facility. They were still in the middle mesa facility, which is massive and has like hundreds of floors. Remember there's all that decrepit half-lit stuff, and then there's even cold storage below that. Its huge. Rabid Snake posted:edit: Also, Lee asks Theresa "When do you get to rotate home again?" Rotate home because its an island and they work in shifts. Makes sense to me. But orbital launch engineer is the one wink that maybe says it could be space, but it was meant as a joke. Security guy also joked "its part of my backstory", that could be them having fun with the audience expectations or that could be foreshadowing. But I think its the former.
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Dec 7, 2016 08:28
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 51~ minutes in Episode 2 when she walks outside or "underground" Second look, it actually does look like it could be underground actually... but it also looks like it could be in space who knows
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Dec 7, 2016 08:32
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I guess it's just hard to also explain the map that was on the westworld website. This was the map before episode 2 or 3 I think. They updated it on the website now. Topology survey of the park "Commissioned under the command of the United States government" You'd think in the future they would have the whole Earth surveyed already.
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Dec 7, 2016 08:36
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Rabid Snake posted:Second look, it actually does look like it could be underground actually... but it also looks like it could be in space who knows Yeah that was how I took it. I mean it doesn't make a ton of sense to build an underground facility in that shape, but then again the whole park is insane and I could see Ford thinking its real cool to have open walkways inside the center of the mesa in like a man-made cave. Rabid Snake posted:Topology survey of the park "Commissioned under the command of the United States government" Yeah it could go either way. The show isn't super far in the future so that could make some kinda moonbase or whatever less likely, and it could be that was just a survey that was commissioned long ago? But maybe.
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Dec 7, 2016 08:40
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The website confirmed that the facility is underground except for the hotel on the top floor, which we saw in the show.
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Dec 7, 2016 08:48
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Rabid Snake posted:
People read way too much into some poo poo. The park is huge. We have no idea exactly how huge, but it seems to be at least several days across on horseback at the least though even that is debatable. It's out in the middle of the rear end end of nowhere with no town directly nearby. The employees rotating in makes perfect sense. They come to the park and live in the command center for a time while they work and then they go home and a new crew takes over. Dragonrah fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 09:30
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the guard gunfight scene was really bad and anyone who's saying otherwise has rose tinted glasses
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Dec 7, 2016 11:35
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It worked fine for me because I assumed every branch of Westworld had at most 3 competent people, and then a bunch of people making minimum wage that do sweet gently caress all. That's why it seems like every other person in the body shop is some creepy loser gently caress up, and why the security force is jumped up mall cops. You don't need much competence when your tools are so good and the hosts are pretty much on lockdown. Combine that with Ford being the enemy, and there wasn't a lot those chumps can do. Now if next season comes and the actual military isn't turning their lives into Oregon Trail Vietnam, then I have a problem.
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Dec 7, 2016 11:39
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I guess you could also argue that the security guards didn't know exactly who they were up against. I imagine the radio communication was simply "we've got 3 hosts killing people over here, one male two female," followed by "huh wait you mean inside the offices wait what do they look like?" … "they look like people."
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Dec 7, 2016 12:05
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I missed it the first time, but Logan has a great line right after Dolores slashes his face and escapes: "She's not different, you're loving broken!"
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Dec 7, 2016 12:59
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If MiB was there with the QA team (or any other skilled guest), the escape would have failed very quickly. Guests have no military training, but at least they usually have no problem with shooting hosts, which helps a lot if you mean to stop them EDIT: also, rewatching the episode, there's something bothering me: during the escape, they cross that bridge into SW. But then, when Maeve arrive at the train station, she is back on WW Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 13:23
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Dragonrah posted:People read way too much into some poo poo. The park is huge. We have no idea exactly how huge, but it seems to be at least several days across on horseback at the least though even that is debatable. It's out in the middle of the rear end end of nowhere with no town directly nearby. The employees rotating in makes perfect sense. They come to the park and live in the command center for a time while they work and then they go home and a new crew takes over. If you've ever been in the area where they film the show, there's nothing out there. If someone bought 500 square miles of land out there they'd have room to spare. Might have to displace a town or two, but it's an incredibly vast area.
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Dec 7, 2016 13:33
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NmareBfly posted:I don't have any, but the basic question isn't 'why were they not taking cover' or some tacticalol poo poo it's literally 'why didn't they shoot at the people who were killing them.' I thought the basic question was, if they're a trained host response unit, why aren't they packing the park's smart guns?
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Dec 7, 2016 14:14
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I thought the basic question was, if they're a trained host response unit, why aren't they packing the park's smart guns? They show that Stubbs doesn't trust those guns and carries a real gun, probably either because the fake guns are made to limit damage to the hosts or else because they can conceivably be hacked. If Stubbs was in charge, he would probably push for having real guns. Of course he would probably also push for proper training, shoot to kill policies, and functional body armor.
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Dec 7, 2016 14:21
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Quick Draw McGraw posted:They show that Stubbs doesn't trust those guns and carries a real gun, probably either because the fake guns are made to limit damage to the hosts or else because they can conceivably be hacked. If Stubbs was in charge, he would probably push for having real guns. The whole "Holy poo poo, snake girl killed twenty dudes, GET ON THE GROUND NOW!" has me questioning whether there's something intentionally fishy with the QA / security team. Are they hosts? Are they part of Ford's plan? The "these gods are pussies" line is a shade.
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Dec 7, 2016 14:36
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i see it's time to unbookmark this thread until 2018
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Dec 7, 2016 15:23
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I guess the problem with the response team logically acting like special forces is that it would really draw out those scenes when they only narratively existed to move characters from A to B. Doesn't excuse how illogical it was of course, or how stupid the argument that any criticism of it means that you want some kind of Tom Clancy diamond formation turbosperg.
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Dec 7, 2016 15:43
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regulargonzalez posted:Jesus Christ this thread. Gonna be a long-rear end wait until 2018. Yeah probably time to drop out. It's been good while it lasted though. EDIT: loving logic autists up in here.
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Dec 7, 2016 15:44
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Durzel posted:I guess the problem with the response team logically acting like special forces is that it would really draw out those scenes when they only narratively existed to move characters from A to B. The problem is that they are portrayed as scary in the early episodes, and their boss is the most competent and professional leader that we see in the entire organization. Then suddenly with no transition the portrayal in the last episode shifts to them being total mooks. Without enough setup or explanation, it just looks like an annouing inconsistency. And it's not like they are trying to save runtime - there is a lot of gratuitous screen time spent on just having these very poorly done shooting scenes. You can't even call them shootouts because in a shootout both sides are actually shooting.
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Dec 7, 2016 15:51
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Even a throwaway line in the control room about how comms aren't working and there's no leadership after their boss mysteriously disappeared would have put a band-aid over it.
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Dec 7, 2016 15:54
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Dragonrah posted:People read way too much into some poo poo. The park is huge. We have no idea exactly how huge, but it seems to be at least several days across on horseback at the least though even that is debatable. It's out in the middle of the rear end end of nowhere with no town directly nearby. The employees rotating in makes perfect sense. They come to the park and live in the command center for a time while they work and then they go home and a new crew takes over.
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Dec 7, 2016 15:56
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Quick Draw McGraw posted:The problem is that they are portrayed as scary in the early episodes, and their boss is the most competent and professional leader that we see in the entire organization. Then suddenly with no transition the portrayal in the last episode shifts to them being total mooks. Without enough setup or explanation, it just looks like an annouing inconsistency. And it's not like they are trying to save runtime - there is a lot of gratuitous screen time spent on just having these very poorly done shooting scenes. You can't even call them shootouts because in a shootout both sides are actually shooting. EDIT: Fair points about little touches making a big difference.
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Dec 7, 2016 15:57
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Durzel posted:I'm not saying that it wasn't poorly shown, there are various aspects of the show and the finale in particular that don't stand up to even a basic level of scrutiny, but that any kind of scene that involves mooks with guns that are in the way of the story progressing is always going to be tricky, particularly if you're not prepared to devote much time to it. You could have the guards actually shooting the hosts but it not doing anything because the show already specifically showed Maeve turn their pain resistance stat up to maximum (which is doubly weird because Armistice seems to be *in pain* when she's 127-houring herself), and we know their skulls are strong enough to withstand contact-range handgun fire. There's really nothing tricky at all about showing competent people with guns getting massacred by Terminators. They might have filmed it in a way that's jarringly bad-tv-showlike when compared to every other scene in the show because they got lazy, or didn't care as much about it, or for cost reasons. But not because it was too tricky for them to execute properly.
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Dec 7, 2016 16:45
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Quick Draw McGraw posted:Even a throwaway line in the control room about how comms aren't working and there's no leadership after their boss mysteriously disappeared would have put a band-aid over it.
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Dec 7, 2016 16:45
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RobotDogPolice posted:I'm not either, but some semblance of believability is nice in a show where you already have to suspend disbelief. Definitely, we got people theorizing the guards were hosts because of how bad it was Person of Interest did this from time to time as well, where they'd be in a dramatic "moving from A to B" moment while being shot at by dozens of trained soldiers and there's zero tension because the characters seem unconcerned
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Dec 7, 2016 16:55
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I think it could be expected that the security team kinda sucks, the most they've had to deal with in 30 years is nerdy lab techs loving the robots. Most of them have probably never fired a gun outside of a firing range and now without any warning they're being shot at by machines with maxed out stats. It'd be like the animatronics at Disney World waking up one day and attacking the guests, they'd be able to do a lot of damage early on because nobody's expecting it. We as viewers expect the hosts to go rogue because that's what happens in science fiction stories (and the original movie the show's based on), but in the show they're all laughing at Stubbs for being paranoid because obviously that can never happen. They grew complacent and weren't ready for this.
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Dec 7, 2016 17:17
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You don't need comms to see dead bodies and decide to shoot first and ask questions later, or act with some vague sense of having had training, especially when shooting hosts basically has no lasting consequences.Hobo Clown posted:I think it could be expected that the security team kinda sucks, the most they've had to deal with in 30 years is nerdy lab techs loving the robots. Most of them have probably never fired a gun outside of a firing range and now without any warning they're being shot at by machines with maxed out stats.
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Dec 7, 2016 17:23
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Cant we just settle with "it was a bit silly"? The intention was obviously to show the hosts being awesome and dangerous and massacrating humans like guests do to them. And it worked at times (like when Hector and Armistice first get their guns), and it was kinda dumb at other times
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Dec 7, 2016 17:48
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Shageletic posted:EDIT: loving logic autists up in here.
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