TG Chat/Cooking Thread 2016

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG Chat/Cooking Thread 2016

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

gradenko_2000 posted:

I was inspired by a discussion I read elsewhere online to dig into how D&D has this thing where monsters need magical weapons to be hit.

The gargoyle, for example, dating all the way back to Book 2 - Monsters & Treasure, could only be damaged by magical weapons. It'd inherit this property throughout the Basic D&D sets.

In AD&D, it was the same thing - the gargoyle could only be hit by a +1 weapon or better, but where non-Advanced D&D only made a distinction between magical and non-magical weapons, AD&D also had more powerful monsters like the Pit Fiend where you needed a +2 weapon or better to hit it.

In AD&D 2nd Edition, same thing: the gargoyle could only be hit by a +1 weapon or better, and then the Pit Fiend needed a +3 weapon, even.

As an aside, the video game concept of a "gear treadmill" or "gated content" probably has some of its origins in this model: if you didn't have a +1 weapon yet, and assuming it wasn't just the one gargoyle that the Magic-Users can nuke, you couldn't go into whatever area was being guarded by gargoyles. Assuming the DM played by the random treasure generation rules, you'd have to "grind" on non-gargoyled dungeons until you found a +1 weapon (or undertook a quest that would specifically give you a +1 weapon). That content was effectively closed off from you until your gear was of a certain quality.

In D&D 3rd Edition, the special property was changed somewhat: gargoyles had DR 15/+1, while pit fiends had DR 25/+2. You needed a +1 weapon to bypass the DR completely, and it was possible to deal some small amounts of damage to the gargoyle even without a +1 weapon, but the expectation was still that counting on rolling high on your damage dice still wasn't a winning combination - the gargoyle just wasn't literally and completely immune to your attacks.

And of course, that dovetailed with the Wealth-by-Level rules of 3rd Edition rather formalizing the whole gear treadmill all the harder.

In the 3.5 revision, the model was changed to be based on weapon material, while at the same time the DR amounts were reduced to be more manageable if you ever didn't have any DR to deal with it. Gargoyles now had DR 10/magic, while pit fiends had DR 15/good and silver.

You might need three, four, even five different weapons of different alignment settings, and silvered and adamantine and cold iron to be able to cover all your bases, but the DR was low enough that you could realistically try to wear down the gargoyle even through the DR (it only had 37 HP after all) if you ever didn't have the right weapon to fight with.

It was this change that set me on the path to investigating this aspect of the game to begin with, because some people considered it controversial and/or a nerf to Fighters. It would have been much harder to have enough weapons to account for all of the various materials needed to bypass DR, especially under strict observance of the WBL rules, and it sort of went against the original design concept where the special defense was supposed to be overcome naturally as a result of your getting better gear. The reduction of the DR amounts did make it less imperative to come up with the right weapon, but then that means you're lifting the "content gating" altogether if you can just brute-force the damage.

By 4th Edition, there was no floor/baseline DR anymore, but the number treadmill was so rigorous that if you didn't have a +x weapon at the level you were supposed to have it, your to-hit chance would be so bad as to make the monsters very difficult to deal with in and of itself.

By 5th Edition, I expected that the designers would adopt the AD&D model, since it was supposed to be a "throwback" edition, but lo and behold, gargoyles have Damage Resistance (a keyword meaning all damage is halved) if the weapon is not magical and not adamantine, while pit fiends have Damage Resistance if the weapon is not magical and not silvered.

So it still went back to the 3.5 model where the material of the weapon determines DR bypass, rather than the +magical bonus.

I remember one of the 3e devs talking about that back when WotC had a chatroom on their site, actually. They realized after 3.0 came out (through a lot of complaints all over the place) that having DR x/+y was a pain in the rear end for a lot of people because it was a very blatant and codified "you must be this tall to ride" sign on certain monsters. People didn't like that because requiring X loot to fight Y monster was "too video-gamey" and often times the DR value was somewhere north of "anything a reasonable melee character could do in a single hit". In specific, people hated needing a +X bonus to beat a given DR because paying to beat DR is boring as poo poo, especially when you could have fun and useful effects like keen, maiming, wounding, etc. So the values were cut in half (sometimes more), DR/+X became DR/magic, and DR as an ability went from being the content gate to being another defense you could go around, through, or over as you saw fit.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 17:23

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# ? May 11, 2024 14:34

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Elfgames posted:

i don't know about video games but i have heard that there are japanese dudes who get super salty about non western poo poo in their tabletop rpgs

Yeah, that got mentioned in that designer note thing for TBZ, IIRC? Along with their trials of getting the publisher to agree to a special edition without pantsless ninja girl on the cover.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 17:24

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Yawgmoth posted:

I remember one of the 3e devs talking about that back when WotC had a chatroom on their site, actually. They realized after 3.0 came out (through a lot of complaints all over the place) that having DR x/+y was a pain in the rear end for a lot of people because it was a very blatant and codified "you must be this tall to ride" sign on certain monsters. People didn't like that because requiring X loot to fight Y monster was "too video-gamey" and often times the DR value was somewhere north of "anything a reasonable melee character could do in a single hit". In specific, people hated needing a +X bonus to beat a given DR because paying to beat DR is boring as poo poo, especially when you could have fun and useful effects like keen, maiming, wounding, etc. So the values were cut in half (sometimes more), DR/+X became DR/magic, and DR as an ability went from being the content gate to being another defense you could go around, through, or over as you saw fit.

I'm not at all disagreeing with you or any of that, but the other of the coin is that:

1. the DR being a gating mechanic may well have been entirely the point

2. the DR being larger than what a melee character could reasonably push out is, again, the point, given that under the AD&D model your damage would have been completely zero'd out anyway, since you wouldn't even be able to hit the thing

3. you were probably supposed to have the correct +x weapons at the correct times playing under "normal" WBL and treasure generation conditions in the first place, such that encountering a monster whose DR you couldn't bypass was supposed to be the exception, rather than the rule

I definitely understand the counter-argument though, and there's room to justify both approaches either way.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 17:32

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

unseenlibrarian posted:

Yeah, that got mentioned in that designer note thing for TBZ, IIRC? Along with their trials of getting the publisher to agree to a special edition without pantsless ninja girl on the cover.

Pantsless Ninja Girl is a good example of why Japan doesn't quite "get" America. Fortunately the Hardcover editions and the slipcase for the softbound edition have variant covers not featuring Pantsless Ninja Girl.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 17:37

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

gradenko_2000 posted:

I'm not at all disagreeing with you or any of that, but the other of the coin is that:

1. the DR being a gating mechanic may well have been entirely the point

2. the DR being larger than what a melee character could reasonably push out is, again, the point, given that under the AD&D model your damage would have been completely zero'd out anyway, since you wouldn't even be able to hit the thing

3. you were probably supposed to have the correct +x weapons at the correct times playing under "normal" WBL and treasure generation conditions in the first place, such that encountering a monster whose DR you couldn't bypass was supposed to be the exception, rather than the rule

I definitely understand the counter-argument though, and there's room to justify both approaches either way.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying any given way is objectively better (although I do certainly prefer lower DR values with a "key" to bypassing it over the "you must be this enchanted to ride" model), I'm just relating what was going on in the minds of the devs who chatted with me so long ago and the people who had their attention enough to have their complaints heard and acted upon.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 17:39

Doodmons: Jan 17, 2009

Kwyndig posted:

Pantsless Ninja Girl is a good example of why Japan doesn't quite "get" America. Fortunately the Hardcover editions and the slipcase for the softbound edition have variant covers not featuring Pantsless Ninja Girl.

I sold my regular edition and upgraded to the limited edition hardcover specifically to avoid getting put on a watchlist for owning the Pantsless Ninja Girl edition.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 17:52

Auralsaurus Flex: Aug 3, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

By 5th Edition, ... gargoyles have Damage Resistance (a keyword meaning all damage is halved) if the weapon is not magical and not adamantine...

So it still went back to the 3.5 model where the material of the weapon determines DR bypass, rather than the +magical bonus.

Just to clarify this � since I thought your concluding statement could be misinterpreted � based on the Dungeon Master's Basic Rules, the overall properties of damage determine Damage Resistance bypass and Damage Vulnerability and Immunity in 5th Edition. Things like damage type, weapon material, and whether or not a weapon is magical. The specific value of a magic weapon's attack/damage bonus is never considered, just its inherent "magicality."

In that sense, it's closer to the way Pathfinder has been described as handling material-based Damage Resistance bypass, but � in a simplification measure, or perhaps as a callback to earlier editions � eschews concerning itself with numerical bonuses.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 19:21

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

Hey everyone, I'm looking for a tool I could use to make gridmaps for Strike! combats with the following requirements:

- it requires no artistic skill (i.e. it has drag-and-drop art assets or whatever).
- those assets would ideally be suited for multiple genres (although the thing I need it for RIGHT NOW is fantasy, so I could make do with just fantasy for now).
- I must be able to put my creations in a product for sale - so whatever art assets are there must come along with permission for me to use them in a commercial work.

Basically, the next time I put out a pre-made adventure or a book with pre-written combat encounters, I'd like to be able to include a battle map. But I suck too much at drawing to actually draw anything myself. I know there are plenty of tools out there that handle the first two, and I've used some, but I'm not at all sure about the third one - I'm not sure what permissions and license comes with the tools.

Free is nice, but since I intend to use this for business purposes, I'm willing to pay if it gets me a better product.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 20:43

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

Yawgmoth posted:

Oh yeah, I'm not saying any given way is objectively better (although I do certainly prefer lower DR values with a "key" to bypassing it over the "you must be this enchanted to ride" model), I'm just relating what was going on in the minds of the devs who chatted with me so long ago and the people who had their attention enough to have their complaints heard and acted upon.

My weapon has no effect!

# ? Dec 23, 2016 20:50

long-ass nips Diane: Dec 13, 2010; Breathe.

Jimbozig posted:

Hey everyone, I'm looking for a tool I could use to make gridmaps for Strike! combats with the following requirements:

- it requires no artistic skill (i.e. it has drag-and-drop art assets or whatever).
- those assets would ideally be suited for multiple genres (although the thing I need it for RIGHT NOW is fantasy, so I could make do with just fantasy for now).
- I must be able to put my creations in a product for sale - so whatever art assets are there must come along with permission for me to use them in a commercial work.

Basically, the next time I put out a pre-made adventure or a book with pre-written combat encounters, I'd like to be able to include a battle map. But I suck too much at drawing to actually draw anything myself. I know there are plenty of tools out there that handle the first two, and I've used some, but I'm not at all sure about the third one - I'm not sure what permissions and license comes with the tools.

Free is nice, but since I intend to use this for business purposes, I'm willing to pay if it gets me a better product.

Campaign Cartographer ticks all your boxes but it has a pretty steep learning curve. You don't have to know how to draw anything but you have to learn the CAD workflow which is pretty counter-intuitive if you're used to photoshop or whatever.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 21:00

Mae: Aug 1, 2010; Supesudandi wa, kukan-nai no dandidesu

Has anyone looked through the Tales From The Loop rule book yet? The alpha was released on pdf today and I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 21:04

Kestral: Nov 24, 2000; Forum Veteran

Mae posted:

Has anyone looked through the Tales From The Loop rule book yet? The alpha was released on pdf today and I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

I've been skimming it over lunch. So far it meets my expectations: gorgeous presentation, evocative setting, serviceable but not exceptional rules. It has a serious case of excessive capitalization, but that's a minor nitpick that doesn't affect the quality of the game. The book is absolutely dripping with the Weird 80s Sweden atmosphere of the source material; it certainly helps that, judging by the names on the credits page, most of the people who had a hand in this book probably lived in that time and place. There's a lot of structural guidance on creating scenarios, and while I haven't dug into it yet to see how good it is, I appreciate the effort: preparing investigative scenarios is tough, and it's nice to see them recognize this.

Also it has the phrase "Kids trying to wrestle a raptor with Force 3 need three successes to overcome it," and I can't ask for much more than that.

I expect they're going to see a little backlash, because the "Weirdo" archetype has the option to pick "I'm not heterosexual" as their Pride. Now, Prides are objectively good things for the character, "something that makes you feel strong, important, and valuable," but the fact that queerness is linked directly to something called "Weirdo" could rub people the wrong way.

Minor quibbles If I weren't running three games simultaneously right now, I'd be giving serious consideration to starting up a short-series game of Tales from the Loop.

# ? Dec 23, 2016 21:55

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Merry Christmas, TG! Thanks for all the entertainment, and special thanks to all the people I've played with this 2016. You've made this year fun and memorable.

# ? Dec 24, 2016 15:08

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

gradenko_2000 posted:

Merry Christmas, TG! Thanks for all the entertainment, and special thanks to all the people I've played with this 2016. You've made this year fun and memorable.

Here's hoping 2017 is less of a burning outhouse than 2016.

# ? Dec 24, 2016 16:00

OpenlyEvilJello: Dec 28, 2009

gradenko_2000 posted:

Merry Christmas, TG! Thanks for all the entertainment, and special thanks to all the people I've played with this 2016. You've made this year fun and memorable.

Thanks for being a pretty uniformly excellent poster, gradenko_2000.

e: Noticed a typo when I got quoted. :negative:

OpenlyEvilJello fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Dec 25, 2016

# ? Dec 24, 2016 20:20

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

I'm on a pizzeria on the middle of nowhere and using the wifi to post while i wait for them to finisb heatjng the turkey so i can drive 2 hours to the ranch in the brazilian norteastern wastelands I'm spending christmas

# ? Dec 24, 2016 20:45

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Sion posted:

Name looks fine to me, imo

*in either tim heidecker or thom yorke in creep voice* I'm a shitlord. I'm a redpilled sir .

# ? Dec 24, 2016 21:02

Ratpick: Oct 9, 2012; And no one ate dinner that night.

OpenlyEvilJello posted:

Thanks for being a pretty uniformly excellent poster, grandenko_2000.

# ? Dec 24, 2016 22:06

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Merry Christmas, you goddamn nerds. :3:

And Gygax bless us, every one.

# ? Dec 24, 2016 22:44

LongDarkNight: Oct 25, 2010; It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.; Oven Wrangler

Thank you Trad Games for the gift of being a less lovely game master. Merry Christmas one and all.

# ? Dec 24, 2016 23:43

Helical Nightmares: Apr 30, 2009

Pretty good year of discussion. Next year lets complete more personal projects! :toot:

Happy Holidays

# ? Dec 24, 2016 23:48

potatocubed: Jul 26, 2012; *rathian noises*

Merry Christmas goons. I hope you get everything you wished for.

Also this:

Helical Nightmares posted:

Pretty good year of discussion. Next year lets complete more personal projects!

Happy Holidays

# ? Dec 25, 2016 00:27

RocknRollaAyatollah: Nov 26, 2008; Lipstick Apathy

Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah! May you all roll well on the loot tables tomorrow.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 01:02

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

Happy Holidays... But ONLY to board game crew

# ? Dec 25, 2016 01:05

Serf: May 5, 2011

pleasant ice month

# ? Dec 25, 2016 03:42

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

Happy holidays.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 03:54

P.d0t: Dec 27, 2007; I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

Merry Christmas, goons!

For 2017, I'm planning to blog more regularly (5th/15th/25th of every month, through at least June) so keep your eyes peeled for that

# ? Dec 25, 2016 04:03

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

festive solstice weekend

I've tried repeatedly to give my brother in law a gift he actually likes. This year I will give him the Star Bastards book, as it is fun and cool to have. I'm looking forward to him doing the eyes raised forced frown and going "interesting" and never looking at it again

# ? Dec 25, 2016 05:37

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

maybe ask him what he wants instead of placing your interests on him

# ? Dec 25, 2016 06:28

Rasamune: Jan 19, 2011; MORT
MORT
MORT

Merry Christmas

gently caress

# ? Dec 25, 2016 06:34

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Countblanc posted:

maybe ask him what he wants instead of placing your interests on him

I've done this and he asks for the most expensive poo poo ever. Dude is a nerd's nerd and I try to get him stuff I genuinely think he'll like, this included, and I refuse to buy gift certificates for people because it defeats the whole fuckin purpose of a gift exchange

I admit I worded the previous post dumbly though making it look like every other gift I've given him was not a nerdly poo poo

# ? Dec 25, 2016 07:59

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Happy Holidays and gently caress 2016

# ? Dec 25, 2016 08:05

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Covok posted:

Happy Holidays and gently caress 2016

Death is certain lamo

# ? Dec 25, 2016 08:28

Lemniscate Blue: Apr 21, 2006; Here we go again.

signalnoise posted:

I've done this and he asks for the most expensive poo poo ever. Dude is a nerd's nerd and I try to get him stuff I genuinely think he'll like, this included, and I refuse to buy gift certificates for people because it defeats the whole fuckin purpose of a gift exchange

My bougie prick brother-in-law is like this except he only ever wants cash because he finds fault with everything anyone ever gets him. My wife and I have settled on getting him cash packaged in various annoying ways to entertain ourselves. This year he's getting a big box filled with fifty balloons. Each balloon has a $1 bill rolled up inside.

She vetoed the quickset cement block with a bill in the middle, plus a chisel. I guess there's always next year.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 08:38

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Lemniscate Blue posted:

My bougie prick brother-in-law is like this except he only ever wants cash because he finds fault with everything anyone ever gets him. My wife and I have settled on getting him cash packaged in various annoying ways to entertain ourselves. This year he's getting a big box filled with fifty balloons. Each balloon has a $1 bill rolled up inside.

She vetoed the quickset cement block with a bill in the middle, plus a chisel. I guess there's always next year.

Do what I used to do with one of my friends, get him a nonspecific amount of money in unwrapped pennies then hand them to him in a big sack. This won't work if he owns an automatic coin sorter or anything, but otherwise it works a treat.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 09:31

ZearothK: Aug 25, 2008; I've lost twice, I've failed twice and I've gotten two dishonorable mentions within 7 weeks. But I keep coming back. I am The Trooper!

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

So, since this is the day of Baby Jesus' coming and all that, what are people's experiences with Shadow of the Demon Lord?

ZearothK fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Dec 25, 2016

# ? Dec 25, 2016 13:07

Infinite Oregano: Dec 31, 2007; I'm going to make my friends eat infinite oregano and they'll have to do it because the recipe says so!

Merry Christmas to all in goondom.

No one else mind you.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 14:48

Yawgmoth: Sep 10, 2003; This post is cursed!

Lemniscate Blue posted:

My bougie prick brother-in-law is like this except he only ever wants cash because he finds fault with everything anyone ever gets him. My wife and I have settled on getting him cash packaged in various annoying ways to entertain ourselves. This year he's getting a big box filled with fifty balloons. Each balloon has a $1 bill rolled up inside.

She vetoed the quickset cement block with a bill in the middle, plus a chisel. I guess there's always next year.

This has ruined my christmas poo poo-mood. Good job, I'm gonna be snickering about this all day.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 15:56

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

Lemniscate Blue posted:

My bougie prick brother-in-law is like this except he only ever wants cash because he finds fault with everything anyone ever gets him. My wife and I have settled on getting him cash packaged in various annoying ways to entertain ourselves. This year he's getting a big box filled with fifty balloons. Each balloon has a $1 bill rolled up inside.

She vetoed the quickset cement block with a bill in the middle, plus a chisel. I guess there's always next year.

If you roll up a bill really tight, you can make a small unnoticeable slit in an orange near the stem and slide the bill in. So you can give him a bag of oranges to see his reaction, plus give him money in an obnoxious way.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 17:21

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# ? May 11, 2024 14:34

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

ZearothK posted:

So, since this is the day of Baby Jesus' coming and all that, what are people's experiences with Shadow of the Demon Lord?

I haven't played it but the rules look solid and everyone I know who has played it has raved about how good it is.

# ? Dec 25, 2016 17:29

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