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8-bit Miniboss
May 24, 2005

CORPO COPS CAME FOR MY :filez:

Jonas Albrecht posted:

After you beat the Cave of Shadows, you can use the Wolf Link amiibo to summon a wolf buddy in Breath of the Wild.

You don't have to beat it, it just makes Wolf Link have more hearts in Breath of the Wild. He'll start out with 3 even if you never even entered it.

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Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here
E: ^^^^LOL

Jonas Albrecht posted:

After you beat the Cave of Shadows, you can use the Wolf Link amiibo to summon a wolf buddy in Breath of the Wild.

I think you misunderstand. The Wolf Link Amiibo allows you to summon the wolf in BotW. If you do CoS, you get however many hearts you finish the dungeon with. Either way you can summon him.

Waltzing Along fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Dec 27, 2016

Gorgolflox
Apr 2, 2009

Gun Saliva
I don't think you even save any data to the Amiibo after you beat the Cave of Shadows anyway

Jonas Albrecht
Jun 7, 2012


Oh man, that is a relief.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Waltzing Along posted:

Apparently in BotW, Link will be playing banjo. It's about time.

Good. Banjos own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxavhjb_7JU

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

One Nation, Under God.

Heavy Metal posted:

I think handheld Zelda games should go for a Landstalker-esque isometric kinda view to spice things up, or a Dragon Quest IV DS slight angle with camera rotation. I've seen enough of the top of Links head, more of a sidescroller fan than top down fan. And if you're doing top down, isometric is best.

(Controversial view on views)

The DS games don't use a straight overhead view like ALBW, they're tilted a bit.

I'm sure the inevitable mobile versions will follow suit.

Runcible Cat
May 28, 2007

Ignoring this post

PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

The DS games don't use a straight overhead view like ALBW, they're tilted a bit.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!
The true ALBW soundtrack is just Smooth Criminal on loop.

MokBa
Jun 8, 2006

If you see something suspicious, bomb it!

You've been hit by
You've been struck by
A smooooth Hylian

youcallthatatwist
Sep 22, 2013

Cleretic posted:

The true ALBW soundtrack is just Smooth Criminal on loop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlmDPC6ai4Y

Blade_of_tyshalle
Jul 12, 2009

If you think that, along the way, you're not going to fail... you're blind.

There's no one I've ever met, no matter how successful they are, who hasn't said they had their failures along the way.

Zelda, are you okay?
Zelda, are you okay?
Excuuuuuse me, princess

spit on my clit
Jul 19, 2015

by Cyrano4747

Gorgolflox posted:

I don't think you even save any data to the Amiibo after you beat the Cave of Shadows anyway

Here is how the cave of shadows works, in regard to saving data to the amiibo

if you beat your previous heart score, you're allowed to save that data to the wolf link amiibo. containers don't matter, only health. this means that if you want ALL of the hearts, you either have to beat it with enough missing hearts that your WL's data can recover it, or get a zelda amiibo. Cave of shadows really just is not worth it, especially with all the horseshit it throws at you. Wolf link really shouldn't be fighting archers or armos, and ESPECIALLY not archers and gibdos at the same time. If Wolf Link ever got an upgrade, or was good in the first place, it'd be a less annoying experience.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius
Was someone complaining before that Skyward Sword doesn't have anything to skip conversations? You just hold A. While it's not as fast as some things in the N64 zeldas where you could press B and skip whole conversations, it is faster than some things in the N64 Zeldas where you couldn't skip something at all and there was no way to speed it up. In any case, I find holding A so I can go through the conversations closer to my reading speed pretty nice.

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here
Yes, not skipping conversations is skipping conversations. You don't have to waggle either, you just have to pretend your controller is a sword.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius
Did you see the part where I said it's a compromise between the N64 instances where sometimes you could skip but sometimes you had to slowly watch the entire conversation?

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

pre:
                                Dawn of 
                             The First Day

                          - 72 Hours Remain -

Crawfish
Dec 11, 2012



spit on my clit posted:

Here is how the cave of shadows works, in regard to saving data to the amiibo

if you beat your previous heart score, you're allowed to save that data to the wolf link amiibo. containers don't matter, only health. this means that if you want ALL of the hearts, you either have to beat it with enough missing hearts that your WL's data can recover it, or get a zelda amiibo. Cave of shadows really just is not worth it, especially with all the horseshit it throws at you. Wolf link really shouldn't be fighting archers or armos, and ESPECIALLY not archers and gibdos at the same time. If Wolf Link ever got an upgrade, or was good in the first place, it'd be a less annoying experience.
Worth mentioning that you save data for getting as deep as you can currently progress. Cave of Shadows has to be tackled three times to unlock all of it's floors and get to the bottom, which means you get a chance to save to it the first time you get passed the 6th and like.....16th? floors as well as any time you hit the bottom.

What i'm getting at is that if you can get the full 20 Hearts before you attempt the cave and get passed the 6th floor without taking damage, you can cheese your way to a full health wolf shaped animal buddy for BOTW.

Cave of Shadows is definitely horseshit though. Any floor with ice enemies is a bad time, and the last floor with enemies is ridiculous.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

Waltzing Along posted:

Yes, not skipping conversations is skipping conversations. You don't have to waggle either, you just have to pretend your controller is a sword.

You don't have to waggle because that's not a thing.

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



Cojawfee posted:

Did you see the part where I said it's a compromise between the N64 instances where sometimes you could skip but sometimes you had to slowly watch the entire conversation?

I think he means never having to talk to Fi unless absolutely necessary like Navi or Tatl, there was a bunch of stuff Navi could tell you but you could just ignore a lot of it if you didn't touch the Up C button when she rang. Fi is forced into the game every 5 minutes to break up the pace of the game and tell you dumb poo poo you probably don't care about, it's not about speeding up her dialogue it just really needs to be removed because it's trash anyway.

Phimosissy posted:

You don't have to waggle because that's not a thing.

Exactly, we all just pretend motion controls don't exist.

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax
Worse than that, Fi breaks in often to tell you something you already know or that the scene just conveyed.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

s.i.r.e. posted:

Exactly, we all just pretend motion controls don't exist.

Nah, they exist and are sometimes good and sometimes bad like other things. Overall, it will mostly fall to the wayside as the benefits are largely not worth the tech costs.

I like the flick-to-spin in Galaxy, for instance. The flick-nunchuck-to-activate-shield thing in Zelda was also pretty good.

Motion controls (and second screen utilization) in Splatoon are amazingly good, and motion aiming in nearly everything is an improvement over stick aiming.


I do :lol: at every mention of "forced" touchscreen or "forced" motion controls though, as opposed to "Forced" buttons and joysticks and whatnot.

youcallthatatwist
Sep 22, 2013
Motion controls are good when devs are using them in innovative amd unique ways, as in SS and Okami, and bad when devs are using them to rrplace actions that could easily be performed using buttons, as in the TP sword waggle.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius
TP was obvious button replacement but so far Skyward Sword seems to be justifying it's motion controls a bit better.

spit on my clit
Jul 19, 2015

by Cyrano4747

Crawfish posted:

Worth mentioning that you save data for getting as deep as you can currently progress. Cave of Shadows has to be tackled three times to unlock all of it's floors and get to the bottom, which means you get a chance to save to it the first time you get passed the 6th and like.....16th? floors as well as any time you hit the bottom.

What i'm getting at is that if you can get the full 20 Hearts before you attempt the cave and get passed the 6th floor without taking damage, you can cheese your way to a full health wolf shaped animal buddy for BOTW.

Cave of Shadows is definitely horseshit though. Any floor with ice enemies is a bad time, and the last floor with enemies is ridiculous.

I wonder what'll happen if i wipe my current amiibo save and try that. lets find out...in a bit.

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



Phimosissy posted:

Nah, they exist and are sometimes good and sometimes bad like other things. Overall, it will mostly fall to the wayside as the benefits are largely not worth the tech costs.

I like the flick-to-spin in Galaxy, for instance. The flick-nunchuck-to-activate-shield thing in Zelda was also pretty good.

Motion controls (and second screen utilization) in Splatoon are amazingly good, and motion aiming in nearly everything is an improvement over stick aiming.


I do :lol: at every mention of "forced" touchscreen or "forced" motion controls though, as opposed to "Forced" buttons and joysticks and whatnot.

Sometimes they are forced though, the spin thing in Galaxy could have been just a button because it was a single input that wasn't effected by the angle or strength you shook the Wiimote so it was absolutely pointless to not just bind it to the jump button (which I don't believe did anything while you were in the air). A lot of the complaints people had about the controls were when it came to actions that really didn't need you to shake the Wiimote because a button would have been just as good. They were intentionally shoehorning in waggle just because it was "new," but they were do determined to reinvent the wheel. With a button you know exactly when and how you input the command and there's no grey area where you didn't hit it enough, like with cheap motion controls of the Wiimote where there's times when it just doesn't register your shake properly and there's nothing to tell you why.

Gyro controls are fantastic (I loved them in OoT3D and MM3D) but I'd still prefer a mouse since it's superior in everyway. Time to bring back Mario Paint.

Heavy Metal
Sep 1, 2014

America's $1 Funnyman

Wii-mote and nunchuck to me is the worst controller on any Big 4 console ever. Plus any game where you have to aim the wiimote and move with the stick is really odd for me as a leftie who mouses right handed, I'm used to aiming with my right hand in games, and moving the character with my left hand. But aiming a remote/lightgun I do with my left hand, but I don't move a character with my right hand, long story short the controls don't work for me. And were gimmicky and shortsighted, I'm glad they're moving on from that.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Being able to hold the controller halves apart from each other was the best.

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



Bongo Bill posted:

Being able to hold the controller halves apart from each other was the best.

I'm glad we can do that with the Switch and not have wires be in the way.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

s.i.r.e. posted:

Sometimes they are forced though
My point was that the use of the word "forced" is silly when the most requested alternative was to have you just as "forced" to use a different (albeit generally preferred) scheme.

It's like saying arcade centepede forces you to use a trackball. It's not wrong, but that's just how that game works. It sounds petulant.

Heavy Metal
Sep 1, 2014

America's $1 Funnyman

Phimosissy posted:

My point was that the use of the word "forced" is silly when the most requested alternative was to have you just as "forced" to use a different (albeit generally preferred) scheme.

It's like saying arcade centepede forces you to use a trackball. It's not wrong, but that's just how that game works. It sounds petulant.

Instead of forced, let's just say it's an abomination.

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax

s.i.r.e. posted:

I'm glad we can do that with the Switch and not have wires be in the way.

I wonder how long that will last, considering the joycon grip is apparently basically just a battery for the joycon L and R.

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



Phimosissy posted:

It's like saying arcade centepede forces you to use a trackball. It's not wrong, but that's just how that game works. It sounds petulant.

The problem is that none of these games need to work like that and they're worse than the established input methods we already have. Again, they're reinventing the wheel for the sake of doing so without any added benefit. Games shouldn't be based around terrible input methods.

greatn posted:

I wonder how long that will last, considering the joycon grip is apparently basically just a battery for the joycon L and R.

I'm hoping for at least an hour and maybe 3-4 with the battery connector. I'd be good with playing for an hour with my hands separate and having to plug-in after.

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax

s.i.r.e. posted:

The problem is that none of these games need to work like that and they're worse than the established input methods we already have. Again, they're reinventing the wheel for the sake of doing so without any added benefit. Games shouldn't be based around terrible input methods.


I'm hoping for at least an hour and maybe 3-4 with the battery connector. I'd be good with playing for an hour with my hands separate and having to plug-in after.

Nah I bet with the battery connector it will last a hell of a lot longer than 3-4.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

s.i.r.e. posted:

The problem is that none of these games need to work like that and they're worse than the established input methods we already have. Again, they're reinventing the wheel for the sake of doing so without any added benefit. Games shouldn't be based around terrible input methods.

No game needs to work like anything is my point. Centipede didn't need a trackball.

It's arguable whether or not it worked, and I'd say the general consensus is that it did not, but the idea of wiimote motion inputs was to make games more immersive. Personally, I feel that that did work for several applications, such as the previously mentioned mario spin and link shield, although I understand others didn't like it. I do certainly hear the complaint that sometimes the inputs didn't register. That is a technical problem, though, not a conceptual one with motion controls.

Literally any change from a previous thing is "reinventing the wheel" but people only say things like that when they don't like the change. "Gimmick" in this context means "innovation I did not personally care for and want to belittle".

I'm not saying all change is good but I will certainly defend Nintendo's commitment to trying new things. They hit more than they miss.

Heavy Metal
Sep 1, 2014

America's $1 Funnyman

Phimosissy posted:

No game needs to work like anything is my point. Centipede didn't need a trackball.

It's arguable whether or not it worked, and I'd say the general consensus is that it did not, but the idea of wiimote motion inputs was to make games more immersive. Personally, I feel that that did work for several applications, such as the previously mentioned mario spin and link shield, although I understand others didn't like it. I do certainly hear the complaint that sometimes the inputs didn't register. That is a technical problem, though, not a conceptual one with motion controls.

Literally any change from a previous thing is "reinventing the wheel" but people only say things like that when they don't like the change. "Gimmick" in this context means "innovation I did not personally care for and want to belittle".

I'm not saying all change is good but I will certainly defend Nintendo's commitment to trying new things. They hit more than they miss.

You say people who call shaking a controller forced sound "petulant", and you think it's bad to belittle a control scheme?

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



greatn posted:

Nah I bet with the battery connector it will last a hell of a lot longer than 3-4.

Hopefully, it just doesn't look too big though it doesn't have to power a big, dumb-rear end touch screen now.

Phimosissy posted:

Literally any change from a previous thing is "reinventing the wheel" but people only say things like that when they don't like the change. "Gimmick" in this context means "innovation I did not personally care for and want to belittle".

Not exactly, going from a D-Pad to a stick was necessary because of the higher fidelity of controls possible (and usually required) in 3D environments, control sticks work really well for 3D games. Sticks can also be used in games that used D-Pads. Sticks superseded the D-Pad as the de facto standard of character movement because they're a good idea and they work well in practice.

Motion controls have only become a necessity recently because of VR where you cannot in any god drat way replicate the fidelity of separate hand/finger tracking and environmental interaction with said motion controls. The waggle or even Wiimotion+ didn't really add much and just became awkward inputs for only select moments in games. They weren't ubiquitous across the board, just "Hey, here's a small part of the game that uses motion control" or a small movement you had to do which would of been better with a button.

That was the problem with the Wii's motion controls, most, if not all of it could have been done on a standard pad or method of input already established and with a higher rate of precision. You're reinventing the wheel when you try and solve a problem that has already been solved to perfection.

youcallthatatwist
Sep 22, 2013

Heavy Metal posted:

You say people who call shaking a controller forced sound "petulant", and you think it's bad to belittle a control scheme?

it's bad to belittle a control scheme concept because of a few examples of failed execution, especially since many of those mistakes come from designing around the control scheme instead of for it.

s.i.r.e. posted:

Motion controls have only become a necessity recently because of VR where you cannot in any god drat way replicate the fidelity of separate hand/finger tracking and environmental interaction with said motion controls. The waggle or even Wiimotion+ didn't really add much and just became awkward inputs for only select moments in games. They weren't ubiquitous across the board, just "Hey, here's a small part of the game that uses motion control" or a small movement you had to do which would of been better with a button.

That was the problem with the Wii's motion controls, most, if not all of it could have been done on a standard pad or method of input already established and with a higher rate of precision. You're reinventing the wheel when you try and solve a problem that has already been solved to perfection.

The problems you are describing were the fault of the developers, not the system itself. It is absolutely possible to make a game in which motion controls figure prominently, like Okami or SS, it's just that most people either didn't bother implementing them in any meaningful way, or were hindered due to the wii's terrible hardware, an issue unrelated to motion controls. For a separate but related example, look at touch screens: imagine if people had only tried to port console games to the DS or smartphones or whatever. You'd probably have heard complaints pretty quickly that touch controls didn't offer anything new for videogames, because console games aren't designed around touch screens.

Also, modern controllers aren't perfect. They work well for certain games, like FPSs, but RTS games are nigh unplayable. They're designed to allow ylu to manipulate a character in 3D space, and they do that very well, but touch/motion controls offer other possibilities.

youcallthatatwist fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Dec 29, 2016

Heavy Metal
Sep 1, 2014

America's $1 Funnyman

youcallthatatwist posted:

it's bad to belittle a control scheme concept because of a few examples of failed execution, especially since many of those mistakes come from designing around the control scheme instead of for it.

But it's funny to insult people over it, gamers get passionate about things. Surely it's more okay to insult a controller?

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

I'm waggle.

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Heavy Metal
Sep 1, 2014

America's $1 Funnyman

I'm just glad I'll be able to surf on a shield in the near future!

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