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oohhboy posted:???! I liked a lot of the number of the week ones. The serial episodes have a bigger high but sometimes you just want to come home after work and relax. The show did a good job with seeding the episodic episodes with little things that tied in to the major plot.
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Jan 3, 2017 05:02
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More fragile than toxic really, Reese wasn't running around boning everyone. But S1/2 he was basically Jack Reacher. poo poo got way better when Root but especially Shaw came around so Reese's character could breathe a little. As far as number of the week goes, I wasn't opposed to the concept, but 99% of the time, it was just a two minute scene of Finch talking to the Machine. It would have been really cool if they didn't know about Samaritan from the beginning and had to figure out there was another AI hunting them. Also, it sucked that they only thought to show other Machine cells in the last season. I would have much preferred that and conflicts with Vigilance over the boring rear end HR and Elias/Dominic arcs.
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Jan 3, 2017 05:03
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theflyingexecutive posted:More fragile than toxic really, Reese wasn't running around boning everyone. theflyingexecutive posted:As far as number of the week goes, I wasn't opposed to the concept, but 99% of the time, it was just a two minute scene of Finch talking to the Machine. It would have been really cool if they didn't know about Samaritan from the beginning and had to figure out there was another AI hunting them. Also, it sucked that they only thought to show other Machine cells in the last season. I would have much preferred that and conflicts with Vigilance over the boring rear end HR and Elias/Dominic arcs. Having other machine cells was out of the question from in season 4 simply because they couldn't afford it. That shoe string of a budget was breaking and the austerity crippled that season. The final season showed what would have happened if they had a proper budget. Not knowing about Samaritan wouldn't have worked either as it would have been ridiculous for the Machine not to know. She did exactly what what you would expect her to do, task the team to make the choice as to how to deal with it.
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Jan 3, 2017 06:02
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All displays of traditional male gender roles are either toxic or fragile now.
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Jan 3, 2017 07:12
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Toxic fragility
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Jan 3, 2017 10:25
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Toxic masculinity is the thing that ruined Reese's life. He straight up says that he hosed up his own life because he couldn't open his big stupid mouth and actually say feelings stuff to the woman he desperately loved and would've died for.
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Jan 3, 2017 15:22
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oohhboy posted:??!? There was a literal episode detailing what would happen if someone lesser than Reese was employed conclusively dealing with the question. Not really a question of his skills, just his awful attitude and personality for a while. For other cells, just knowing they existed, even offscreen, would have been interesting. I'm not sure the Machine could have seen an emerging AI like Samaritan. She didn't know Vigilance was controlled by Greer and couldn't really predict their movements. Greer was also able to ditch Machine surveillance on the reg.
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Jan 3, 2017 15:39
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Spergatory posted:Toxic masculinity is the thing that ruined Reese's life. He straight up says that he hosed up his own life because he couldn't open his big stupid mouth and actually say feelings stuff to the woman he desperately loved and would've died for. Yeah, the show gets there, but only after a couple dozen hours
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Jan 3, 2017 15:43
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theflyingexecutive posted:Not really a question of his skills, just his awful attitude and personality for a while. I wasn't questioning his skills either. Rick Dillinger was the answer to why we got Reese. Dillinger was as skilled as Reese, but with none of the self control or morals. I looked up "Toxic masculinity" which is a questionable term from a questionable site with questionable examples and definition. The only thing Reese matches in the definition is unemotional, which is from the self control he learned as a spy/assassin or still hurting from the loss of his girl or that he doesn't like to talk alot or he is naturally stoic. He opens up again later because he has had the time to form those connections again. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity The Machine did see though. There are multiple episodes where she gives them the chance to stop Samaritan before he is born. She more than likely knew of Vigilance too, however she still communicated in numbers or only to Root but in direct moment by moment orders only so the team had to divine the bigger picture of which they couldn't do alot of the time. Spergatory posted:Toxic masculinity is the thing that ruined Reese's life. He straight up says that he hosed up his own life because he couldn't open his big stupid mouth and actually say feelings stuff to the woman he desperately loved and would've died for.
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Jan 3, 2017 16:34
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It was literally "just say your feelings and I'll wait for you." There was no choice involved; he could've done his duty as a soldier and then gone home and banged his hot girlfriend and had a fairly happy life, but instead he clammed up and said nothing, his girl found someone else, and he got a job working out his feelings through government-sponsored murder. Like, he literally says this in the show. It's never framed as a choice between girlfriend and country; it's framed as Reese being too emotionally constipated to be honest with her, and spending the rest of his life dealing with the fallout.
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Jan 3, 2017 16:44
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He had quit to be with his girl but 9/11 happened. The airport scene was for our dramatic benefit. He didn't find out about the girl until he got back, then he fell apart. He choose the correct choice for her, sacrificing himself for her. He recognized it was not reasonable to keep somebody hanging for an indefinite amount of time. What he didn't expect was her to end up dead instead of being with someone she was happy with. He had no mission, emotionally destroyed. Finch picked him up from that. Reese also isn't as nearly violent has you make him out to be as he more often than not try to de-escalate as seen from the very first fight in the train car. He definitely doesn't enjoy the violence like Kara does, but pragmatically views it as another tool. I still can't see how it matches that definition if that is even a thing.
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Jan 3, 2017 17:14
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Again; he was not making her wait. It was a choice. She was willing. All he had to do was ask, and he didn't. It was his choice, and he made the wrong one. When you say he chose correctly, you are literally contradicting not only Reese himself, but his entire arc in the show. The definition of toxic masculinity is essentially: Men are soldiers. Men don't have feelings. Men fight and kill and sacrifice because it's their duty. Men must bear all burdens and they must do it alone. Reese's entire loving character arc is unlearning that and realising that he can have feelings and attachments, he can depend on others, he is allowed to want happiness for himself. I have no idea how you could watch the show and miss that.
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Jan 3, 2017 17:37
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I don't disagree, and on paper where you only sketch out the dramatic parts for a character arc, everything looks cool. But for a huge chunk of the series, the dude is the hero and accomplishes all of his goals by suppressing his emotions and being glib about shooting and torturing people. You can retcon all of the explanations you want about why his character is the way he is, but they just end up as parentheticals to the demonstrated behaviors of overbearing masculinity for at least two seasons.
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Jan 3, 2017 17:53
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Spergatory posted:I have no idea how you could watch the show and miss that. /Watches 'Redditmans Approved PoI Arc list' on double speed 'in the background while I do other things' Guys, this show??
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Jan 3, 2017 18:00
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You are accusing him of being a man who happens to be a soldier who came to be broken by an event he had no control of or could have foreseen. As far as I can tell "toxic masculinity" is Bull poo poo. I can't tell it is some alt-right or alt-left thing. One says it's all men are rapists, other says men are oppressed or it's hyper-masculinity with overt extreme violence regardless of gender, or blame men for everything because. http://quillette.com/2016/11/16/why-colleges-should-stop-teaching-toxic-masculinity/ So yeah, there is no definition and the whole thing is made out of whole cloth to suit whatever you maybe trying to justify.
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Jan 3, 2017 18:06
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If you wanna watch a good show deconstructing Toxic masculinity, watch Vice Principals. Otherwise end this derail here because it's stupid and not at all relevant to this show.
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Jan 3, 2017 18:12
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Talking about the main character's motivations and presentation thereof in a show isn't a derail
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Jan 3, 2017 18:15
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I'm specifically talking about arguing about the definition of the term.
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Jan 3, 2017 18:17
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But if you wanna go there, let's look at Reese in S1. We have him: Disavowing rape culture and victim blaming in ep 4, ep 6 begins a character trend of him submitting openly to women starting with Zoe, reflected in his flashbacks with Kara, and exemplified for the rest of the series with characters like Carter, Shaw and even Root. None of this is ever codified with "heh not bad, FOR A GIRL" that you expect out of toxic male heroes. Also in episode 17 or 18 I forget. (the baby ep) The dude is literally crying when he realizes there's nothing he can do to to save the baby except for betraying Carter's trust. None of this poo poo just happened later on when the cast became more of an ensemble, it was always there and you just weren't seeing it. Zaggitz fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 18:36
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Man it's been a few months since I finished this show and I still miss it. I still think about it more than "better" shows like GoT or even west world. I wish they would make a spin off. But as a serial. Move away from the numbers.
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Jan 4, 2017 01:21
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Zaggitz posted:But if you wanna go there, let's look at Reese in S1. We have him: Disavowing rape culture and victim blaming in ep 4, ep 6 begins a character trend of him submitting openly to women starting with Zoe, reflected in his flashbacks with Kara, and exemplified for the rest of the series with characters like Carter, Shaw and even Zoe. None of this is ever codified with "heh not bad, FOR A GIRL" that you expect out of toxic male heroes. Also in episode 17 or 18 I forget. (the baby ep) The dude is literally crying when he realizes there's nothing he can do to to save the baby except for betraying Carter's trust. You only get that kind of detailed analysis by watching the show at 1x speed tho
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Jan 4, 2017 01:26
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theflyingexecutive posted:Having just watched this for the first time, I'd kill for a Director's Cut that completely excises all of the lovely cop drama and toxic masculinity and magic bullet gunfights. But Shaw is the best part!
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Jan 4, 2017 02:31
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theflyingexecutive posted:Having just watched this for the first time, I'd kill for a Director's Cut that completely excises all of the lovely cop drama and toxic masculinity and magic bullet gunfights. Show possibly just not your jam altogether if your edit of choice would involve cutting out like one of two major story arcs and basically all the development of two main characters. No beef, but the show isn't JUST an AI sci-fi drama and IMO it's better for it.
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Jan 4, 2017 03:39
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I like the cop plot lines. Especially when the bad guys get what's coming to them! That said I kinda see the point about "toxic masculinity", though I think that's an extreme way of phrasing it. Reese is a good guy and definitely not a misogynist, but he embodies so many masculine/action hero tropes that it's a little over the top at times. I do find his character silly with his serious Batman voice and silly one liners after violence or a shootout, but it didn't stop me from appreciating his part in the show otherwise. A separate point: sometimes when I tell people about the show I explain that Reese might as well be a superhero with what he accomplishes in any given situation. Edit: also I think Shaw and Root being a thing was very awkward romance to throw in the show. It didnt seem natural at all. But who cares because they're both fine as hell n4 fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 04:34
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If you are going to apply that to Reese, you must do the same for Fusco, Root, Carter and Shaw because they are all action heroes(Generally on the realistic end) that quip because that what action heroes do. Reese being a male action hero or masculine does not automatically designate him "toxic *insert gender*" as proven by Zaggitz whether you use a more open or "Extreme" interpretation. If you have to reach that far it likely wasn't true in the first place.
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Jan 4, 2017 05:53
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Oh hey a bunch of new posts in the PoI thread I wonder wh
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Jan 4, 2017 06:29
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oohhboy posted:If you are going to apply that to Reese, you must do the same for Fusco, Root, Carter and Shaw because they are all action heroes(Generally on the realistic end) that quip because that what action heroes do. Reese being a male action hero or masculine does not automatically designate him "toxic *insert gender*" as proven by Zaggitz whether you use a more open or "Extreme" interpretation. If you have to reach that far it likely wasn't true in the first place. Well I don't know what the original poster's reasons for saying that are. I'm just relating. The tropes do bug me a bit but it's not because of "toxic masculinity" reasons. You're right that they're all very tropey characters though.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:09
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I would like to restate that my use of the term "toxic masculinity" was too strong and I would like to substitute "fragile masculinity", where every bit of emotional progress Reese makes seemingly has to be met with a demonstration of his shooting skills. I think that Nolan and some of the writers had good ideas for Reese and a few of them surfaced in the first couple seasons, but were buried in whatever forces that dictated 25 minutes of ultra-serious gunfights per episode. That tone and the quantity of actions undermined Reese's character development. A huge part of his development was him coming to grips with how his violence deeply affected him and others and that his emotional detachment was unhealthy, that he had to actually care about people both "good" and "bad" to achieve meaning in his life and redeem his past. The flashbacks and Finch conversations and some of the bigger beats (letting Elias go) reflected this, but for every minute of those, there were ten minutes of him kneecapping, torturing, or massacring henchmen in between smarmy quips. One of the primary features of a fragilely masculine character is a blasé attitude about direly wounding and killing and this incongruity wasn't resolved until the middle of the series, when he went from wasting a whole room to incapacitating and only killing in truly dire situations. Later in the series, you even get outsiders poking fun at his love of kneecapping and his put-on hyper-masculine Batman gravel and it definitely should have showed up earlier than late S3/S4. A lot of this is also resolved when Shaw arrives, because it freed Reese from having to do all of the lifting on the script. It can be argued that her character's bad traits are just as bad as Reese's. Within the show universe, this is a stronger argument; in the context of action shows as a whole, there's less of a stereotype for Shaw to reinforce, which mitigates (not entirely!) its impact. I felt frustrated enough to post about it because episodes like the UN one existed where you had both seriousness and levity happily coexisting because there were more characters. I genuinely laughed at Fusco's one-liners and everything just clicked better. The "lovely cop drama" to which I was referring is not an attack on cop drama at large, but how it fits into the show's ideas. Weirdly, this actually gets worse as the show progresses. It starts with using HR as a statement on how the police could tacitly allow organized crime to occur in the interest of preserving order over the individual lives destroyed by such crime. (It adds the nuance later, Fusco and the crooked cops start off as generic greedy amoral bad guys) It also attempted to use Fusco as an example of how someone so clearly designated as evil can eventually become good, undercut by flashbacks that show Fusco as far more reluctant and accidentally bad than his introduction would suggest. The HR storyline morphs such that they abandon their goals of allowing criminal organizations to exist to preserve order and into a very flat, very generic situation where HR is actively facilitating and committing crime to enrich themselves. I never got why Elias was given such a heroic treatment by the show. Every good thing he does is motivated by blatant self-interest and lust for power, and his existence is used to justify the sort of revenge killings that have become unpalatable for the Machinists by the end of the show (strangling Simmons, blowing up the Voice). Despite this, he's kept around, ironically turning the Machinists into the original incarnation of HR, but without any sort of thematic resolution. The Brotherhood plotline was hot garbage start to finish and brought absolutely nothing to the table. They were unabashedly evil and had only the most superficial connection to any of the main themes, storylines, or character developments.
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Jan 4, 2017 08:47
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I think it's important to remember all the characters basically all are action heroes. They're all experts in their fields, and they're all basically the demigod disciples of a God. The show is serious on its own terms, that's why reeds can knee can knee cap people with out actually looking down his sights on his pistol. Personally I see Reese as having a redemptive relationship with the machine. For his entire CIA career reese pretty much killed dudes for the government, frequently at northern lights behest. When he stops working for northern lights he becomes a mess and when Finch hires him he unfucks himself in saving people. Carrying over the Machine God idea, Reese murdered for God without knowing god, which left him a shallow shell of a man about to throw himself into the east river with enough liquor in him to pickle a whale. When he meets Finch, the prophet and through finch actually gets to know god, he does a lot of the same poo poo but redeems his soul in the process. The (reduced) killing he does now bears Gods Sanction and approval and in this he saves himself and becomes a normal person again, though he will later go on to sacrifice himself for God. I think this has less to do with a religious over tones as much as it does gave something to do with a how someone can be a destructive force of murder and still be a person. This makes sense when i write it but you guys can tell me if it makes sense when I'm sober.
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Jan 4, 2017 10:10
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That would make a lot more sense if God mode were always running, but it's weird to have superhero fantasy gun battles in a high concept show. I like that interpretation for sure
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Jan 4, 2017 10:13
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??!??!? I did a search for "fragile masculinity" and it came back as a hastag mocking normal products that have been made "Manly" no matter how nonsensical it maybe. Again it is something with no definition. The Urban dictionary is the closest thing to a definition: http://www.urbandictionary.com/tags.php?tag=fragile%20masculinity quote:sausage fears I am not sure of your agenda of insisting on labelling Reese in such context with definitions that doesn't exist nor apply to Reese. Reese is clearly has emotional bonds with Finch for saving him by giving him a mission and Finch is rewarded with his unquestioned loyalty to each other. They both show emotional and physical bonds by their willingness to die for each other to talking about the pain and events they have suffered before they became a team. In season one Reese clearly shows affection by looking after a drugged up Finch and communicating their fondness for each other. You are mistaking stoic and broken for unemotional. Even in his broken state as a homeless person he still forms bonds with other homeless people allowing him in one episode to protect a PoI. Reese is an action hero, of course he is going to beat up bad guys, but he is not doing it to prove his masculinity, he is doing it to save people, to be the hero. His ROE doesn't change, he is kneecapping from the get go and killing when pushed. He does try to talk things out, but he also holds the stick of overt violence during negotiations. As far as I can tell you are just making stuff up or have some sort of weird agenda you don't apply to the females. theflyingexecutive posted:That would make a lot more sense if God mode were always running, but it's weird to have superhero fantasy gun battles in a high concept show. I like that interpretation for sure The Machine doesn't give them God mode all the time because 1. It is deus ex machina 2. The Machine was built to respect free will 3. The Machine giving them all the information they need doesn't make for a compelling show without the investigative aspect. The Team gets numbers instead of corpses, it's a subversion of every other cop show. SpookyLizard posted:I think it's important to remember all the characters basically all are action heroes. They're all experts in their fields, and they're all basically the demigod disciples of a God. The show is serious on its own terms, that's why reeds can knee can knee cap people with out actually looking down his sights on his pistol. The idea that the ASI are Gods came from Greer, something only Root subscribes to. Reese didn't becomes a mess because of Northen Light(although getting betrayed by cruise missile is pretty hardcore), he breaks because the one thing he cared about died and he was powerless to save her.
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Jan 4, 2017 10:39
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Spergatory posted:Again; he was not making her wait. It was a choice. She was willing. All he had to do was ask, and he didn't. It was his choice, and he made the wrong one. When you say he chose correctly, you are literally contradicting not only Reese himself, but his entire arc in the show. The definition of toxic masculinity is essentially: Men are soldiers. Men don't have feelings. Men fight and kill and sacrifice because it's their duty. Men must bear all burdens and they must do it alone. Reese's entire loving character arc is unlearning that and realising that he can have feelings and attachments, he can depend on others, he is allowed to want happiness for himself. I have no idea how you could watch the show and miss that. I don't think that's Reese though. A huge part of the show is basically about fundamentally broken people ('bad code') trying to overcome their limitations and make a better situation for themselves. Reese's fault is his Messiah complex. He's the one who has to dive head first everytime into a problem and try to save everyone by himself. It's something that Carter and the other call him out on it time and time again and even in the last couple of episodes, he basically dumps another chance at happiness because the mission always comes first and he has to be the one to save everybody. What you're saying about toxic masculinity can basically be applied to the other characters on the show. Carter, Fusco, Shaw, Root and Finch basically all have story lines where they deny their own feelings and fight and sacrifice alone out of duty with the weight on the world on them. Whoever said they were superheros is basically right and really early on in the show, one of the biggest theories in the thread was that this show was basically Nolan's version of the Justice League. I mean, in the end, Reese dumps another chance at happiness and sacrifices himself for the mission. He doesn't really learn to overcome his feelings or get in touch with his emotions. He goes out being the hero that he is and dies basically the same way he did the first time. There isn't a magically moment where he's healed of his issues and he was right to not ask Jessica to wait. He's the adopted son of a war hero who swaps his duty and mission to the Army to that of the CIA and then again to Finch and the Machine. He's never going to be the family man that his girlfriend wanted. theflyingexecutive posted:The "lovely cop drama" to which I was referring is not an attack on cop drama at large, but how it fits into the show's ideas. Weirdly, this actually gets worse as the show progresses. It starts with using HR as a statement on how the police could tacitly allow organized crime to occur in the interest of preserving order over the individual lives destroyed by such crime. (It adds the nuance later, Fusco and the crooked cops start off as generic greedy amoral bad guys) It also attempted to use Fusco as an example of how someone so clearly designated as evil can eventually become good, undercut by flashbacks that show Fusco as far more reluctant and accidentally bad than his introduction would suggest. The HR storyline morphs such that they abandon their goals of allowing criminal organizations to exist to preserve order and into a very flat, very generic situation where HR is actively facilitating and committing crime to enrich themselves. HR and Elias are basically the idea that even when you're trying to build a perfect world, corruption and crime will always exist because humans are lovely. Luckily, Samaritan finds a solution to this age old problem 
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Jan 4, 2017 12:24
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Kegslayer posted:HR and Elias are basically the idea that even when you're trying to build a perfect world, corruption and crime will always exist because humans are lovely. Luckily, Samaritan finds a solution to this age old problem Yeah, if you take out The Correction, HR and Elias and The Brotherhood are bog-standard organized crime stories that steal time from better stories and characters. You don't even get any of the nuance of a political figure very carefully and very indirectly influencing crime, Quinn almost gleefully gets elbows deep in murder and drugs.
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Jan 4, 2017 12:45
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theflyingexecutive posted:That would make a lot more sense if God mode were always running, but it's weird to have superhero fantasy gun battles in a high concept show. I like that interpretation for sure Upon re-reading it in the light of day I had the mental image of John as a Paladin, and now I'm imaging the cast as a DnD party, consisting of a paladin, a rogue, two wizards, a dog and a member of the local constabulary.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:10
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SpookyLizard posted:Upon re-reading it in the light of day I had the mental image of John as a Paladin, and now I'm imaging the cast as a DnD party, consisting of a paladin, a rogue, two wizards, a dog and a member of the local constabulary. Reese is the Fighter who aspires to be a paladin but skirts around the law too much to make it work. Joss Carter is the One True Paladin.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:16
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SpookyLizard posted:Upon re-reading it in the light of day I had the mental image of John as a Paladin, and now I'm imaging the cast as a DnD party, consisting of a paladin, a rogue, two wizards, a dog and a member of the local constabulary. Finch is a Bard.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:43
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SpookyLizard posted:Upon re-reading it in the light of day I had the mental image of John as a Paladin, and now I'm imaging the cast as a DnD party, consisting of a paladin, a rogue, two wizards, a dog and a member of the local constabulary. Reese is the party Crusader. http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/crusader/ Finch is the party Illustionist.
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Jan 5, 2017 16:10
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I don't know... Mr Egret was a mean SOB and he did threaten nuclear hellfire. Maybe he is closer to an Alchemist with all his prepared cutting edge potions(Hacking) crossed with a Wizard specialising in illusions(his ability to disappear).
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Jan 5, 2017 16:27
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oohhboy posted:I don't know... Mr Egret was a mean SOB and he did threaten nuclear hellfire. Maybe he is closer to an Alchemist with all his prepared cutting edge potions(Hacking) crossed with a Wizard specialising in illusions(his ability to disappear). But what about that time he helped Reese aim a high powered rifle? I thought it was going to be revealed that he had some kind of training, but I guess no. He's just good at reading winter speed or something.
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Jan 5, 2017 18:34
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 09:29 |
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this could've been a PoI episode plot https://twitter.com/NatureNews/status/816678271278530560
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Jan 5, 2017 19:53
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