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Anything that increases the amount of stuff to do and the makes ethics more meaningful (especially in terms of playstyle) is very cool and good.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:43
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My genocide-crusade begins... here
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Jan 16, 2017 23:43
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Can you play divide and conquer like the British did, where they caused ethnic strife by focusing the hate of the larger groups on ethnic minorities they granted privileges? Because if we're going to go evil, why not go the whole hog and copy the best?
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Jan 16, 2017 23:47
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Deceitful Penguin posted:I dunno, cultures are one thing; unless they're literally wiping out the natives like they did with the colonization stuff the e. EU4 horde mechanics are also sort of gencocidey if you pick up the coding of development = population. zedprime fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 00:10
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Can you play divide and conquer like the British did, where they caused ethnic strife by focusing the hate of the larger groups on ethnic minorities they granted privileges? i mean, that's hardly something exclusive to the british... it's a very traditional empire-building technique
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Jan 17, 2017 00:11
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Deceitful Penguin posted:I dunno, cultures are one thing; unless they're literally wiping out the natives like they did with the colonization stuff the Reminder that culture shifting in EU3 was called Settlement Policy and had the below effects, and as far as I know the only instances where it historically happened during this period were when the local population was displaced, genocided or converted to a different religion through force. It is just sanitized now. code:
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Jan 17, 2017 00:13
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Wasn't the culture shifting originally modeled on something akin to the Plantations of Ireland?
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Jan 17, 2017 00:37
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zedprime posted:CK2 lets you do "tribal settling" which is a colorful description of starving or murdering the locals to create room for immigrants coming to take their place. And the horde mechanics encourage the sort of genocide the steppe hordes undertook as punitive measures in the middle east. CK2 also has events like that; tbh at the time the game is happening those sorta tribal migrations had definitely toned down since their biggest heyday but they weren't completely over. Unless my germanic tribal history was completely sanitized you're painting an unduly grim picture of it. Nyeh, I dunno about EUIV, not really a game I played near as much as the other one. PleasingFungus posted:i mean, that's hardly something exclusive to the british... it's a very traditional empire-building technique
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Jan 17, 2017 00:50
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ZearothK posted:Reminder that culture shifting in EU3 was called Settlement Policy and had the below effects, and as far as I know the only instances where it historically happened during this period were when the local population was displaced, genocided or converted to a different religion through force. It is just sanitized now. Yeah, in EU3 it was called Settlement Policy and was pretty directly about displacing the actual native population of the province it affected, but the way it interacts with gameplay in EU4 suggest that province culture represents the culture of the local government/elites (and possibly stuff like what language is used by local government etc.) rather than the general population of the province. Especially since you're spending diplomatic power for it rather than administrative - it is an act of negotiation that is closer to making formal agreements with another authority more than anything else. And by doing that, by bringing the local elite into the fold or replacing them with those of your cultural background, you deprive would-be malcontents among the general population of things like higher connections, legitimate figureheads to rally around and so forth. So I think you can interpret it that way and it works a lot better in terms of making sense out of the game world than treating it as a genocide button.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:06
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YF-23 posted:Yeah, in EU3 it was called Settlement Policy and was pretty directly about displacing the actual native population of the province it affected, but the way it interacts with gameplay in EU4 suggest that province culture represents the culture of the local government/elites (and possibly stuff like what language is used by local government etc.) rather than the general population of the province. Especially since you're spending diplomatic power for it rather than administrative - it is an act of negotiation that is closer to making formal agreements with another authority more than anything else. And by doing that, by bringing the local elite into the fold or replacing them with those of your cultural background, you deprive would-be malcontents among the general population of things like higher connections, legitimate figureheads to rally around and so forth. So I think you can interpret it that way and it works a lot better in terms of making sense out of the game world than treating it as a genocide button. Except culture shifting removes the possibility of Separatist rebels, and having local elites affiliated with the Imperial power is not something that removes a people's desire for self-determination, as was the case in, say, Ireland or Greece, making it a core is more like replacing or gaining the loyalty of local potentates. It is not really a stretch to regard it as a genocide (cultural or ethnic) button given the practices of the period represented in the game. Integrating a people in the game is called "Accepted Culture" after all, but again, the fiction of the game is built by those who play it when the language of the mechanics leaves it open to interpretation. In my headcanon it is an evident genocide button. Just saying that the promised population policies in Stellaris are not really out of the norm for their historical games. You can't do much worse than winning WW2 as Hitler or profiting from the transatlantic slave trade.
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Jan 17, 2017 04:05
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Jan 17, 2017 04:16
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The whole point of idea driven sci-fi in the vein of Star Trek and Stellaris is that you can tackle thorny and uncomfortable social issues using checker-face aliens and inequality-fueled sky cities in a safe space devoid of reality's anxieties. Similarly, in sci-fi pulp a la Star Wars, and also Stellaris, we can enjoy the adventure and settlement tropes of orientalist and western-frontier literature without exacerbating painful historical wounds to actual cultures and peoples. So yeah, let us be Space Hitler, cause it lets us as players think about horrible real life atrocities and their actual consequences in a comfortable fashion that can simultaneously be fun. Imo
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Jan 17, 2017 05:12
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Video games give me uncomfortable feelings about the value of a pop's life.
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Jan 17, 2017 06:00
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Every pop is precious. Except bugs. They're gross.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:58
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Enjoy posted:The Warsaw Ghetto had its drawbacks but it did wonders for their Gini coefficient Isn't this unironically true though? Like, it's no coincidence that WWI happened a century after the fall of the Ancien Regime and the Napoleonic Wars, and here were are a century after that and we're again stretching the limits of peaceful coexistence under a Capitalist system with an increasingly unsustainable level of economic disparity. The difference being that this time you cannot count on conventional war as a force for socioeconomic leveling because nukes exist.
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Jan 17, 2017 09:12
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YF-23 posted:Yeah, in EU3 it was called Settlement Policy and was pretty directly about displacing the actual native population of the province it affected, but the way it interacts with gameplay in EU4 suggest that province culture represents the culture of the local government/elites (and possibly stuff like what language is used by local government etc.) rather than the general population of the province. Especially since you're spending diplomatic power for it rather than administrative - it is an act of negotiation that is closer to making formal agreements with another authority more than anything else. And by doing that, by bringing the local elite into the fold or replacing them with those of your cultural background, you deprive would-be malcontents among the general population of things like higher connections, legitimate figureheads to rally around and so forth. So I think you can interpret it that way and it works a lot better in terms of making sense out of the game world than treating it as a genocide button. I think how it is in EU4 is pretty intentionally left ambiguous. That's my main issue with the Stellaris thing really, the wording is kinda explicit and also draws pretty direct historical parallels. It's also kinda unclear at the same time though. Are undesirables worse than slaves in every society? Is there always distinct difference? For that matter, they are themselves a part of a cast system (unless we're explicitly going for the Nazi analogue), and what makes "caste system" worse than partial citizenship at that? It definitely isn't if you're at the top of the system. I think the words could do with another go-over. Also hoping there's gonna be inertia behind these, rather than it just being a button you can toggle if you have enough influence points or whatever. A caste system or the stigma around a group of people doesn't disappear overnight. Fuligin posted:The whole point of idea driven sci-fi in the vein of Star Trek and Stellaris is that you can tackle thorny and uncomfortable social issues using checker-face aliens and inequality-fueled sky cities in a safe space devoid of reality's anxieties. There's a big difference between a work of fiction with a directed narrative and message and a sandbox game.
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Jan 17, 2017 09:15
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gradenko_2000 posted:Isn't this unironically true though? Like, it's no coincidence that WWI happened a century after the fall of the Ancien Regime and the Napoleonic Wars, and here were are a century after that and we're again stretching the limits of peaceful coexistence under a Capitalist system with an increasingly unsustainable level of economic disparity. Memes exist also.
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Jan 17, 2017 09:16
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V for Vegas posted:Paradox was so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should Can't wait 
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Jan 17, 2017 09:34
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Wait are we getting more China focus in the next EUIV DLC? I would be irrationally excited about that. Or has that already happened, I've been out of the EUIV loop for a while.
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Jan 17, 2017 14:42
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COOL CORN posted:Wait are we getting more China focus in the next EUIV DLC? I would be irrationally excited about that. I think we are, in that Johan tweeted a screenshot of China with tweaked provinces, but that poster is for an in-house multiplayer game that's gonna be in Asia.
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Jan 17, 2017 15:04
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There's definitely some kind of new mechanic involving China (parts of the UI relating to it have been shown in dev diaries) but we know basically nothing about it.
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Jan 17, 2017 18:07
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hexal posted:Every pop is precious. I'm from Buenos Aires and I say 'Kill 'em all!'
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Jan 17, 2017 18:12
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Stellaris: The genocidal maniac simulator PDS always wanted to make but could never justify. But this is every single one of their games
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Jan 17, 2017 18:14
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I just love how in the EU4 mp we are so similar to game of thrones. Ming is loving scary and everyone are united in fear of them. Though anyways your clay looks really appetising....
Groogy fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 01:51
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How do your streams work? do yuo do the facecam thing?
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Jan 18, 2017 02:03
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Deceitful Penguin posted:How do your streams work? do yuo do the facecam thing? There is an omipitent observer that hits players up on Slack and asks them what they are doing. Its pretty cool. My favorite is "hmm the game has paused I think that means (player) is going to Johan's office to negotiate peace face to face."
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Jan 18, 2017 03:32
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MazelTovCocktail posted:I mean I don't really mind, if only because Sci-Fi is chock full of these types of things. It does make one think what a EUIV, CKII or HOIIV full bore would be, if it had the same leeway you get with Sci-Fi. Granted EUIV really has a ton of stuff too, but Stellaris has well lots of Space Hitler options. I mean, CK2 still lets you castrate infants and steal wives so it's really there in all their games and I don't see it as a huge issue.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:35
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Deceitful Penguin posted:How do your streams work? do yuo do the facecam thing? No there's not face cam on +20 players. Though we still do our best to be the best cringe fest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwFDQnXXa7s
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Jan 18, 2017 08:53
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 Bet you're regretting those Make Space Great Again hats now.
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Jan 18, 2017 10:32
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:
Nope that's quality banter, I'm sure professionals in this field can handle worse
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Jan 18, 2017 15:35
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V for Vegas posted:Paradox was so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should This amazing but I don't understand the context at all.
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Jan 18, 2017 21:45
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Baronjutter posted:This amazing but I don't understand the context at all. The film Big Trouble in Little China, art for which looks like this:  And the other side of the context is a developer MP stream in which all the players are Asian countries.
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Jan 19, 2017 01:55
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Okay what the hell Paradox audience. Seriously? https://twitter.com/SAZorak/status/821741064373444610
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Jan 19, 2017 08:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:Okay what the hell Paradox audience. Seriously? It is a fanbase which developed around games allowing you to create the German Reich / lead it to victory over democracy
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Jan 19, 2017 09:35
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It bugs me how many Hearts of Iron players mod swastikas into the game
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Jan 19, 2017 11:42
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Gort posted:It bugs me how many Hearts of Iron players mod swastikas into the game It's censorship! Don't they realise vibeo games are art!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF8TsZwUJ_s
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Jan 19, 2017 12:21
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It's censorship! Don't they realise vibeo games are art! Wait, that's the Indiana Jones scene they use as an example? Not the one with swastika banners all over Berlin and, you know, someone actually portraying Hitler?
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Jan 19, 2017 13:23
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Gort posted:It bugs me how many Hearts of Iron players mod swastikas into the game Eh, that doesn't really bother me too much. Honestly if I'm gonna be killing Nazis, I want it to be absolutely clear that I'm killing Nazis.
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Jan 19, 2017 14:14
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AnoHito posted:Eh, that doesn't really bother me too much. Honestly if I'm gonna be killing Nazis, I want it to be absolutely clear that I'm killing Nazis. Sound reasoning, except that you're in the minority that actually wants to fight Germany instead of play them. 
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Jan 19, 2017 14:28
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EricBauman posted:Wait, that's the Indiana Jones scene they use as an example? Not the one with swastika banners all over Berlin and, you know, someone actually portraying Hitler? According to the censorship rules he used as an example, some German viewers may not recognise Hitler.
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Jan 19, 2017 14:46
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