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TFRazorsaw posted:I love Twilight Princess. That seems a silly thing to say as Link regularly absorbs Zelda's roles. He gets magic, he gets ancient Sheikah artifacts, he leans magical musical abilities, ect. Hell, it's a toss-up if Zelda or Link gets Light Arrows these days. Why would it diminish Zelda to get Link's stuff but it doesn't diminish her for Link to ger her stuff. Hell, Zelda's attacks in Smash Brothers are all poo poo Link gets in Zelda 64.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:53
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I'd rather play a game where you're a Hylian peasant tearing down the oppressive Zelda monarchy and institute democracy.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:56
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I guess I'm just still annoyed at that stupid Aaron Diaz concept and might be over projecting. But I dunno. Link does get some of that stuff yeah, but his core concept is the adventuring knight, yeah? He never goes full on mage, and he's certainly never been a ninja. A stronger, more absolute emphasis on those qualities instead of just dabbling in it like Link does is more what I was thinking. But you do have a point. I'm just trying to clarify what I was thinking.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:57
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The best part about Twilight Princess was using mods on a softmodded Wii to zip around everywhere on the spinning top thing, and recolouring Link's tunic to hot pink.
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Jan 19, 2017 17:59
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TFRazorsaw posted:I guess I'm just still annoyed at that stupid Aaron Diaz concept and might be over projecting. I guess a major difference there is that I *do* think Link goes full mage. Like in Link to the Past you get a huge collection of magic artifacts (and LBW adds even more). In fact in LBW you can effectively replace sword-swinging with giant walls of death and fire once you upgrade them. Hyrule Warriors even gives Link a full-on Fire Rod fighting style. In Zelda 2 he gets a bunch of magic spells including fireballs and turning into a fairy and whatnot. His sword is a big part of him but Link isn't just swordmans, he's frequently relying on both magic spells and magic artifacts.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:01
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Link;s a hero, and Zelda's a zero.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:02
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I guess you have a point. But I'm gonna remain firm on the "Zelda is the adventurer and Link is the kidnapped one" is pretty lame. Zelda doesn't need to be turned into what Luigi is nearly every time he gets a solo game.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:03
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I changed my mind, Zelda busting ghosts sounds awesome.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:04
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TFRazorsaw posted:I guess you have a point. Well, I admit I'd be happier if "(X) got kidnapped" was just not a thing because it's boring and lazy as a motivation.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:04
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This is also true. Look how about we just give Phantom Zelda her own game?
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Jan 19, 2017 18:05
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ImpAtom posted:In Zelda 2 he gets a bunch of magic spells including fireballs and turning into a fairy and whatnot. I hope they bring this back in BotW
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Jan 19, 2017 18:11
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I think they should just make Link have a female option. Identical playstyles and moves, literally just a different character model and sound effects. Zelda can be male or female too, it doesn't really matter either way though, it's not like they're a romantic pair in every game. It's actually really non-romantic in most of them. Female Link, Male Zelda, who gives a poo poo? Oh no! Prince Zelda got kidnapped. Up to Link, the girl from the forest, to rescue him!
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Jan 19, 2017 18:12
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mabels big day posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTsgWepH3GY Huh, this shows why I dislike most TP dungeons: they're all aggressively similar in structure and pace, the difference is the atmosphere and aesthetics used (except for Goron Mines, Temple of Time and Twilight Realm which do just suck) so Snowpeak stands out the most for just being you helping a couple with their problem in a big mansion.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:21
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It seems apparent from the interviews they gave last year that the creators behind the series view the identities of Link and Zelda (gender, origin, status) as way more essential to the characters than many fans do. I don't think they'd ever gender swap them and it seems like if the ever made a game starring Zelda they'd want it to be something themed around what they see as her essential characteristics rather than just slotting her into Link's role. I think it's pretty silly but that seems to be how they think about it.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:22
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Bombadilillo posted:Ive watched his whole series and what Ive learned, is that outside of like 2 dungeons, the mythical Zelda Dungeon he loves DOES NOT EXIST. He wants, non-linear multiple paths with solutions you can think out yourself that are not brute force, try every path. I think the Water Temple is basically the holy grail for him--it's complex, the whole thing is basically one big puzzle, and it rewards you for spatial awareness and paying attention. He's not necessarily asking for a dungeon where there are multiple solutions to the whole dungeon or multiple paths through, but rather a dungeon with a layout and design complex enough that even though there's only one real path through, the player gets to feel like they figured out that path instead of feeling like they're figuring out individual rooms but being led down the dungeon's actual path. Bombadilillo posted:So watching his series, I don't know what he actually wants out of a Zelda dungeon, but I do know it doesn't exist. He wasn't mad that Wind Waker gave you new paths to backtrack, but that it cut out backtracking almost entirely. Wind Waker likes to give you the item and then dump you immediately back to where you need to use it. In the video for Minish Cap, he looks at a different way of doing that--basically opening an entire new path for backtracking--and likes it a lot, because it's not just "okay, you got the boomerang, let's just take you right back to where you first might have noticed that you needed it," but rather a new way to go now that you have the item that eventually leads you back to a previous location.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:26
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Regy Rusty posted:It seems apparent from the interviews they gave last year that the creators behind the series view the identities of Link and Zelda (gender, origin, status) as way more essential to the characters than many fans do. I don't think they'd ever gender swap them and it seems like if the ever made a game starring Zelda they'd want it to be something themed around what they see as her essential characteristics rather than just slotting her into Link's role. Yeah theres the famous, "If Zelda was the hero what would Link do" quote. Its got to be a weird cultural thing.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:29
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Regy Rusty posted:It seems apparent from the interviews they gave last year that the creators behind the series view the identities of Link and Zelda (gender, origin, status) as way more essential to the characters than many fans do. I don't think they'd ever gender swap them and it seems like if the ever made a game starring Zelda they'd want it to be something themed around what they see as her essential characteristics rather than just slotting her into Link's role. Yeah, they're really tied to a specific set of characteristics for Link and for Zelda and I think they'd see a female Link as fundamentally not Link (hence Linkle's existence) and a male or even an adventuring Zelda as fundamentally not Zelda. Maybe that's also why any time Zelda actually does any adventuring herself, it's either under an assumed identity where she uses her magic to masquerade as a man (Sheik) or because she doesn't know she's Zelda (Tetra). I'd also be cool with a game where you play as Zelda doing Zelda things, rather than just making her play like Link. Have a heavier focus on ranged combat--her main weapon could be a bow instead of a sword, because it's not like she doesn't shoot a bow really often in Zelda games--and have her learn various magic spells instead of finding different tools and weapons. But I kind of doubt they'd ever make one of those.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:31
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Every so often I remember how aonuma went on record stating that link couldn't be female because it would "imbalance the triforce", and I break down laughing for a bit. The real reason link can't be a woman is because link's only character traits are "brave" and "strong" and those are ~male traits~. I'm still holding out a little help that zelda will be interesting and not a damsel in this game, but given her trailer scenes and the massive anime eyes they gave her....
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Jan 19, 2017 18:33
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youcallthatatwist posted:Every so often I remember how aonuma went on record stating that link couldn't be female because it would "imbalance the triforce", and I break down laughing for a bit. The real reason link can't be a woman is because link's only character traits are "brave" and "strong" and those are ~male traits~. The trailer literally has the king (presumably) asking Link to rescue his daughter so I wouldn't hold out a ton of hope there.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:34
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Aonuma did give an interview assuring people that Zelda would be a developed character in the game recently: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2017/01/princess_zelda_is_very_complex_and_multi-faceted_in_breath_of_the_wild_aonuma_explains Let it be up to you whether you believe that or not.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:36
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ImpAtom posted:The trailer literally has the king (presumably) asking Link to rescue his daughter so I wouldn't hold out a ton of hope there. Please daughter, rescue our goofy neighbor who is your lifelong best friend and probable love interest but will never be confirmed definitely
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Jan 19, 2017 18:40
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Your doofus friend got kidnapped by Ganon. Use your magical powers to go safe him.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:46
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But as an aside, screw the old "guys get swords, girls get bows" paradigm. It just isn't Link/le if you don't default to sword & shield. My wish fulfillment would be giving us a Lunk with a bastard sword & kite shield for some more Souls-y combat and more traditional block puzzles/blowing stuff up, and a Lank with a buckler/saber combo with the standard button-mash that's about finding ways to traverse rooms Creed-style.
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Jan 19, 2017 18:53
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Triskelli posted:But as an aside, screw the old "guys get swords, girls get bows" paradigm. It just isn't Link/le if you don't default to sword & shield. My wish fulfillment would be giving us a Lunk with a bastard sword & kite shield for some more Souls-y combat and more traditional block puzzles/blowing stuff up, and a Lank with a buckler/saber combo with the standard button-mash that's about finding ways to traverse rooms Creed-style. where does Lonk fit in?
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Jan 19, 2017 18:57
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Link gets Sword Linkle gets twin crossbows, Groose gets Cannon, not sure what the problem is.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:03
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https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/a-conversation-with-zelda-veteran-and-breath-of-the-wild-producer-eiji-aonumaquote:There are fewer big dungeons in the new game, and an emphasis on Link having many smaller shrines to explore, spread around the map. Is that a design choice that goes back to the beginning of the project? Or is that a change you made when the decision was taken to make the game for two platforms, to reflect the battery life of the Switch when it's undocked? So the player can finish a shrine in a single handheld sitting? I know they've been saying there will still be dungeons forever, but this makes it sound like it's definitely a smaller number than people may be expecting.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:06
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Each of the four giant mechanical divine beasts is totally a dungeon
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Jan 19, 2017 19:09
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Bombadilillo posted:Ive watched his whole series and what Ive learned, is that outside of like 2 dungeons, the mythical Zelda Dungeon he loves DOES NOT EXIST. Actually, you will find it does exist and there are a good deal more than 2 examples of it throughout the series TFRazorsaw posted:Aonuma did give an interview assuring people that Zelda would be a developed character in the game recently: I thought that was pretty obvious, the trailer pretty strongly suggested she would be the center of character development in this game Augus fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 19:09
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Augus posted:Actually, you will find it does exist and there are a good deal more than 2 examples of it throughout the series Not according the that series. actually.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:11
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Bombadilillo posted:Not according the that series. actually. 2D Zeldas still count
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Jan 19, 2017 19:12
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Augus posted:2D Zeldas still count He dislikes all of them for various reasons, that the ones he like "do one or 2 things right" but still fall short of expectations.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:13
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Harrow posted:Yeah, they're really tied to a specific set of characteristics for Link and for Zelda and I think they'd see a female Link as fundamentally not Link (hence Linkle's existence) and a male or even an adventuring Zelda as fundamentally not Zelda. Maybe that's also why any time Zelda actually does any adventuring herself, it's either under an assumed identity where she uses her magic to masquerade as a man (Sheik) or because she doesn't know she's Zelda (Tetra). She went adventuring as herself in Skyward Sword just fine. Granted Impa did get involved at some point and helped her out. Give me a game where I play as Impa, thanks.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:14
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Bombadilillo posted:He dislikes all of them for various reasons, that the ones he like "do one or 2 things right" but still fall short of expectations. You should rewatch the series then? Of course none of the games are going to be perfect but he names plenty of dungeons that have good and complex designs. It kinda just sounds like you're overreacting to Zelda games being criticized a bit.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:16
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Old Lady Impa's Mahjong announced Q3 2019 only on new 3DS.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:19
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Bombadilillo posted:He dislikes all of them for various reasons, that the ones he like "do one or 2 things right" but still fall short of expectations. I think part of it is that this is a series about research--he hasn't really reached a conclusion yet. He's intentionally picking apart what he thinks works and doesn't work in each individual dungeon and in each individual game's dungeon design. That approach can come across as more negative than it's intended to. People in the comments were confused when, for example, he disliked the way Wind Waker made backtracking mindless (just open a door to dump you back to the room where you might've earlier noticed you need the item, or giving you the item right next to the room where you need it), but he liked the way Minish Cap gave you alternate, often shorter paths to make backtracking faster. The difference is that, in Minish Cap, they're paths, maybe a path you have to find, or a new path you can open with your new item and use your new item to traverse, while in Wind Waker (a game I otherwise love), it's significantly more immediate--get the item, get right to using the item to progress from the first place where you needed the item. The goal is to have one big video about the series's dungeon design at the end and I think that's going to come across as a lot less critical, because he isn't going to be picking everything apart piece by piece but looking at the series as a whole. He also names quite a few dungeons that hit what he's looking for. There are a few in Link's Awakening that he has very good things to say about (they're not perfect, and he mentions what makes them not perfect, but that doesn't mean he thinks they're bad); he adored the Water Temple; and he points out some "find the path" dungeons in Minish Cap that he really liked, too. Not to mention the occasional examples of linear dungeons that are still good, because not every dungeon needs to be the same (Hyrule Castle in Link to the Past, Temple of Time in Twilight Princess).
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Jan 19, 2017 19:19
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^^I get what the series is, and before he draws conclusions, I have drawn the conclusion that Zelda dungeons are designed to give you the illusion of intricate sprawling areas to explore and unlock and find secrets, and if you graph them a bunch that all falls away and its a bit disappointing to find the path you ultimately HAVE to take.Augus posted:You should rewatch the series then? Of course none of the games are going to be perfect but he names plenty of dungeons that have good and complex designs. It kinda just sounds like you're overreacting to Zelda games being criticized a bit. Sounds like you are overreacting to me criticizing his series a bit. I explained, he looked too far behind the curtain, and found everything more linear then he likes if you spend too much time analyzing it with graph paper. Which will kill any Zelda style dungeon, as proved by the series. Getting a real, "Im calm and you're so loving crazy" vibe from you. Read some posts. Bombadilillo fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 19:19
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Harrow posted:I think part of it is that this is a series about research--he hasn't really reached a conclusion yet. He's intentionally picking apart what he thinks works and doesn't work in each individual dungeon and in each individual game's dungeon design. That approach can come across as more negative than it's intended to. A major problem is that he's calling things flaws that are not inherently flawed or unintentional because he's missing the games are designed for large and varied crowds of all ages, and a lot of his criticism (including 'illusion of choice') are features, not bugs. Guiding the player is an important part of game design and having choice isn't always inherently a good thing. The fact that you're pointing at "Wind Waker instant drops you back at where you need to use the item" as a flaw or a problem with Wind Waker and not an intentional design decision to quickly emphasize to the player the use of their new tool is a big example of that. A lot of games are about providing the illusion and not the actuality of something. The illusion of skilled play, the illusion of being lost, the illusion of figuring things out. IF the illusion doesn't work for you then it doesn't but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Zelda is not a series intended to be punishing and challenging and complex but merely to feel that way because they are marketing at a very diverse group of players, more than most games on the market. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 19:24
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Bombadilillo posted:Sounds like you are overreacting to me criticizing his series a bit. I explained, he looked too far behind the curtain, and found everything more linear then he likes if you spend too much time analyzing it with graph paper. Which will kill any Zelda style dungeon, as proved by the series. Isn't looking behind the curtain the whole point of a critical series on game design, though? The original goal was to take a look under the hood and see how the dungeons work. It's natural that the result is that the series is going to discuss and critique the patterns that emerge from that. It's worth noting that just about every Zelda dungeon is truly linear--there's always only one path through. What he's doing is trying to figure out what separates the dungeons that he likes, the dungeons that let the player feel like they're figuring out the dungeon as a whole and exploring (even if the path is truly linear), from the dungeons he doesn't like as much, where it feels like you're figuring out individual rooms but the dungeon as a whole is just one obvious path.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:24
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Having to backtrack and dig up the location you're supposed to use an item doesn't sound interesting, it sounds like busy work.
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Jan 19, 2017 19:28
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mabels big day posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTsgWepH3GY I like what this dude is trying to do but I wish he'd spend more time talking about the dungeons on their own merits instead of obviously just pinning for Zelda 1. Zelda 1 dungeons aren't going to happen again. BotW will have a Zelda 1 overworld but I doubt we'll ever get the mythical puzzle dungeon he's looking for again. He also seems way too in love with "water level/direction" as a dungeon mechanic. I guess his videos are technically about structure and design but I've always enjoyed dungeons for the other reasons he glosses over. I've always gravitated towards atmosphere and presentation over the puzzles. I don't like it when things are too linear, but I'm far more willing to forgive a more linear dungeon if it's presented well than a super puzzle dungeon that takes me out of it because I have to spend too much time thinking. I actually really like the Water Temple now that i know how to beat it, but the first time through sucked. The best is obviously a good balance. It's probably why I really like TP's dungeons so much. They aren't hard but they have a great sense of place for me. Snowpeak, Arbiter, City in the Sky, and Temple of Time are all very memorable to me because they had that atmosphere I look for. Snowpeak had the best balance of puzzle/presentation and that's why I think it gets remembered so fondly.
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