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Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

A major problem is that he's calling things flaws that are not inherently flawed or unintentional because he's missing the games are designed for large and varied crowds of all ages, and a lot of his criticism (including 'illusion of choice') are features, not bugs. Guiding the player is an important part of game design and having choice isn't always inherently a good thing. The fact that you're pointing at "Wind Waker instant drops you back at where you need to use the item" as a flaw or a problem with Wind Waker and not an intentional design decision to quickly emphasize to the player the use of their new tool is a big example of that.

He points out several times (especially in the Wind Waker and Minish Cap videos) that a lot of this is coming down to personal taste. He much prefers dungeons that let you feel like you're exploring, not like you're being guided; a lot of commenters on the videos disagree, because they don't like screwing around not knowing where to go and would rather get right to the puzzles and action.

But there's also no reason why the Wind Waker approach couldn't be interesting while also providing the player with additional guidance. What if, instead of, say, finding the bow in a room immediately adjacent to the room where you first need it, you find the bow, which opens up a short alternate path that you need to use the bow to traverse (which also serves as a little "how to use the bow" tutorial)? And at the end of that path, you're back in a room you recognize. You get to go, "Oh cool, I know where I am now! And I needed the bow a couple rooms from here," without having to backtrack through a ton of rooms you already did. And if you don't remember exactly where you needed the bow, you don't have to wander much to find it, either, because you're only a couple rooms away from it at most.

In the Minish Cap video, Mark Brown points out exactly that kind of thing: Minish Cap's dungeons tend to give you shortcuts after you find the dungeon's item, but what those shortcuts do is take you back to a room you've been to before and recognize, rather than taking you directly to the next room needed to progress. And he points that out as a very good thing, because it preserves some sense that the player is a pathfinder (you still have to remember where you saw a thing that you needed that item to get through) while also cutting out boring backtracking through rooms you already did (because the player is placed close to that room where they needed the item, if not directly in it). If the player noticed the thing they need the item for the first time through, they get to feel rewarded for remembering; if they didn't, then they don't have far to look.

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Supercar Gautier
Jun 10, 2006

Augus posted:

I thought that was pretty obvious, the trailer pretty strongly suggested she would be the center of character development in this game

Samus was the center of character development in Other M, and it still managed to be a pretty insulting and sexist portrayal, soooo...

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

My guiding Moonlight...



Supercar Gautier posted:

Samus was the center of character development in Other M, and it still managed to be a pretty insulting and sexist portrayal, soooo...

But there wasn't any character development in Other M.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Harrow posted:

But there's also no reason why the Wind Waker approach couldn't be interesting while also providing the player with additional guidance. What if, instead of, say, finding the bow in a room immediately adjacent to the room where you first need it, you find the bow, which opens up a short alternate path that you need to use the bow to traverse (which also serves as a little "how to use the bow" tutorial)? And at the end of that path, you're back in a room you recognize. You get to go, "Oh cool, I know where I am now! And I needed the bow a couple rooms from here," without having to backtrack through a ton of rooms you already did. And if you don't remember exactly where you needed the bow, you don't have to wander much to find it, either, because you're only a couple rooms away from it at most.

Because to some people that feels like a waste of time. Remember that tutorials/guideposts are not always a positive even if theoretically they should be. I personally think that is fine but there are people who have extremely negative responses to 'help rooms' for example. You have to figure out exactly who you're targeting and why you're targeting that while also maintaining the dungeon's pacing and feel. Obviously no Zelda is perfect but it also is that the games don't always have the same goal. Understand why they're making a decision is important.

I think trying to discuss Zelda design with 'this is right/wrong' suffers because Zelda is too diverse a franchise to easily pidgeonhole. You can discuss, for example, Dark Souls design easier because Dark Souls is a much more focused game. Zelda is everything to everyone (or tries to be) and that leads to a lot more convoluted design decisions.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 19, 2017

Evil Eagle
Nov 5, 2009

Here it is folks. The best dungeon in the whole series.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

Because to some people that feels like a waste of time. Remember that tutorials/guideposts are not always a positive even if theoretically they should be. I personally think that is fine but there are people who have extremely negative responses to 'help rooms' for example. You have to figure out exactly who you're targeting and why you're targeting that while also maintaining the dungeon's pacing and feel. Obviously no Zelda is perfect but it also is that the games don't always have the same goal. Understand why they're making a decision is important.

But I'd wager a lot of those people would be even more annoyed by the situation Brown points out in the Forbidden Woods in Wind Waker, where you go through a room where it's obvious you're going to need the boomerang later, go far from that room to get the boomerang, and then it turns out you go through one door and you're back there. If you were observant enough to go, "Yep, I'm going to need to come back here with the boomerang, better remember that," and the game just goes, "Oh, don't worry about remembering things," isn't that just as disappointing as a couple of pseudo-tutorial rooms would be?

Plus, I'd much rather have a couple of rooms where you have to solve very simple boomerang-based puzzles to teach new players about what the boomerang does than several text boxes going, "You got the boomerang! You can use it to X!" and then you get to where you need to use it and your helper goes, "That looks like something you could hit with the boomerang! Give it a try!" Y'know? I mean you gotta teach new players how the item works somehow, and a couple of rooms that I'll find super easy because I already know how it works are going to annoy me a ton less than Helper NPC du Jour lecturing me about the item.

ImpAtom posted:

I think trying to discuss Zelda design with 'this is right/wrong' suffers because Zelda is too diverse a franchise to easily pidgeonhole. You can discuss, for example, Dark Souls design easier because Dark Souls is a much more focused game. Zelda is everything to everyone (or tries to be) and that leads to a lot more convoluted design decisions.

I guess I'm just not looking at the series's critiques through a "this is right, this is wrong" lens, but more of a, "Why do I like these dungeons better than these dungeons?" that sort of turns into, "Why do some dungeons let me feel like an explorer while others make me feel like I'm being led by a piece of string?", and eventually, "Okay, they're all linear, but why do some of them feel more interesting to explore?"

Harrow fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 19, 2017

Bombadilillo
Feb 28, 2009

The dock really fucks a case or nerfing it.

TFRazorsaw posted:

Having to backtrack and dig up the location you're supposed to use an item doesn't sound interesting, it sounds like busy work.

Agreed, the guys is after the feeling of "Oh I know where I can use this!" Which is cool, but theres

1.Backtracking through the dungeon same way you came - bad
2.Minish Cap new path backtracking - good
3.Wind Waker new path backtracking - bad

It seems like part of the design of Wind Waker does go against exploring, with the pots and sending you where you need go. But its still very subjective when you think "I need to get to that room with the vine flower." A new path takes you there and you think "Hell yeah, right where I wanted to go." he thinks "Aww you lead me right there. wtf" At most its a personal preference distinction.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Bombadilillo posted:

Agreed, the guys is after the feeling of "Oh I know where I can use this!" Which is cool, but theres

1.Backtracking through the dungeon same way you came - bad
2.Minish Cap new path backtracking - good
3.Wind Waker new path backtracking - bad

It seems like part of the design of Wind Waker does go against exploring, with the pots and sending you where you need go. But its still very subjective when you think "I need to get to that room with the vine flower." A new path takes you there and you think "Hell yeah, right where I wanted to go." he thinks "Aww you lead me right there. wtf" At most its a personal preference distinction.

Even backtracking the way you came can be good, at least in my opinion, as long as there's something new along the way when you go back. Like, if you go through a room you've been through before, but the path you took to get where you are is one-way--you couldn't go back. But the new item that you just got lets you go back, or reopen the path. That's cool by me--it gives me something new to do even though I've been to that room before. Basically, my criteria for good backtracking in a game like Zelda would be:

1. Reward the player for knowing how to get around the dungeon, but give them a way out if they don't. So, backtracking should take you to someplace you recognize, but not necessarily directly to the answer--you can reorient yourself, and if you don't immediately remember where you had to go, you don't have far to look.
2. Give the player something new to do on the way. Backtracking through the same rooms the same way is boring, I think most people agree on that. But a new path that serves as a shortcut, or a new way to get through the rooms you've already visited, makes backtracking significantly more interesting.

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

Febreeze posted:

I like what this dude is trying to do but I wish he'd spend more time talking about the dungeons on their own merits instead of obviously just pinning for Zelda 1. Zelda 1 dungeons aren't going to happen again. BotW will have a Zelda 1 overworld but I doubt we'll ever get the mythical puzzle dungeon he's looking for again. He also seems way too in love with "water level/direction" as a dungeon mechanic.

While I don't think the lens by which he's analyzing the dungeons is very good, (though I also think the videos have gotten better since the awful Windwaker one) he is explicitly not pining for Zelda 1. Zelda 1's dungeons are so primitive that he didn't even bother doing a video on them. If he's pining for any one game in particular it would be LttP.

Febreeze
Oct 24, 2011

I want to care, butt I dont

Regy Rusty posted:

While I don't think the lens by which he's analyzing the dungeons is very good, (though I also think the videos have gotten better since the awful Windwaker one) he is explicitly not pining for Zelda 1. Zelda 1's dungeons are so primitive that he didn't even bother doing a video on them. If he's pining for any one game in particular it would be LttP.

Yeah, named the wrong game on instinct since that's the one people are talking about with BoTW. He wants an entire game of LttP dungeons or an entire game of water temples. If they made a Zelda that was actually just 1 gigantic water direction puzzle he'd be in heaven.

That's actually a neat concept thinking about it. Hyrule is in a drought! Ganon, sick of living in the Gerudo desert and hating on those water havers in Hyrule, decides to magically take away the water so that all of hyrule becomes like Gerudo desert. Link has to travel to the source of the water and releases a river, which sends part of the land back into bloom, and he has to heal the entire land by directing water flow via dams & such(Dungeons). The entire map is a puzzle. Then Ganon drowns at the end. Boss Keys BEST GAME EVER

Vv I thought he was lukewarm on LA except for Eagles Tower, which has that ball pillar puzzle going through the whole place and is probably the best example of what he wants

Febreeze fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 19, 2017

mabels big day
Feb 25, 2012

Febreeze posted:

Yeah, named the wrong game on instinct since that's the one people are talking about with BoTW. He wants an entire game of LttP dungeons or an entire game of water temples. If they made a Zelda that was actually just 1 gigantic water direction puzzle he'd be in heaven.

That's actually a neat concept thinking about it. Hyrule is in a drought! Ganon, sick of living in the Gerudo desert and hating on those water havers in Hyrule, decides to magically take away the water so that all of hyrule becomes like Gerudo desert. Link has to travel to the source of the water and releases a river, which sends part of the land back into bloom, and he has to heal the entire land by directing water flow via dams & such(Dungeons). The entire map is a puzzle. Then Ganon drowns at the end. Boss Keys BEST GAME EVER

Wrong game again, he wants Link's Awakening dungeons.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Harrow posted:

isn't that just as disappointing as a couple of pseudo-tutorial rooms would be?

Honestly answer: not to everyone. Not everyone inherently feels like a game is belittling or insulting them if it guides them and some people genuinely want or desire that because they don't have great memories or are just playing the game for fun or took a three week break in the middle because their parents made them go visit Aunt Sara in Wyoming. Some people just want to be guided along a path in a way that doesn't feel TOO restrictive. There's a reason genuinely corridor-linear games are popular despite the criticisms. Obviously the key is creating an illusion but the same illusion doesn't work the same way for two people. Some people don't want to be guided at all, some want to be guided a little, some people want glowing signposts that specifically show them exactly where to go with no confusion at all. The best you can do is try to find a comfortable medium.

youcallthatatwist
Sep 22, 2013
I love Mark Brown's other videos and the direction he's taking with these puzzles me. Let me put it this way: the dungeons in Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker are popular for a reason, right? The Water Temple is hated for a reason, right? Why exactly is that? I'm not looking for mindless praise, but I would like to see some analysis on other elements of the dungeons that contribute to their reputation. OoT's forest temple is one of my favorites because of its atmosphere and puzzle design, in the sense of how the puzzles are presented to you (twisting corridor! Little Women ghosts! Phantom Ganon!). Insteae the series just feels like "it's too linear!"x 1000. I mean I personally couldn't stand the early puzzles in alttp because they were all variations on the exact same concept - push a random block! Kill all the enemies! Make sure you don't miss this one easily missable bomb wall! Etc. The fact that there were a few I could do at any time didn't make a difference to me. I'd take a more linear dungeon any day of the week if it has a core theme aesthetic or gameplay theme.

Bombadilillo
Feb 28, 2009

The dock really fucks a case or nerfing it.

^^Yeah his other stuff is better and Im glad boss keys introduced me to his works. Hopefully the eventual mega episode this leads to will have him thinking things through.

Febreeze posted:


Vv I thought he was lukewarm on LA except for Eagles Tower, which has that ball pillar puzzle going through the whole place and is probably the best example of what he wants

He's lukewarm on lttp too. Besides a couple dungeons and some fun gimmicks. What ha wants doesn't exist, the illusion of what he wants exists in some of the games, but he kills that by graphing them too much. I was very surprised at the lttp and LA episodes for this reason.

Its Make Hyrule Great Again. Go back to a time where dungeons let you explore and use special reasoning, and weren't tedious when they did it.

Bombadilillo fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jan 19, 2017

Nephzinho
Jan 25, 2008





Bombadilillo posted:

He's lukewarm on lttp too. Besides a couple dungeons and some fun gimmicks. What ha wants doesn't exist, the illusion of what he wants exists in some of the games, but he kills that by graphing them too much. I was very surprised at the lttp and LA episodes for this reason.

Its Make Hyrule Great Again. Go back to a time where dungeons let you explore and use special reasoning, and weren't tedious when they did it.

AKA when you were younger and dumber and didn't have years of gaming knowledge to see through puzzles.

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

He's been tapping into Aunt May's bank account!
Didn't I kill him with a HELICOPTER?
I think it mostly boils down to him giving dungeon design more importance while actively seeing the franchise focus more on puzzles. He nudges that idea a bit in WW, where the dungeons are simpler, but the puzzles are far clearer and have a very good sense of escalation and consistency. The reason I dig WW taking you back to where you need the dungeon item is that it usually involves a new route that teaches you the use of the item as well "ah, i have the grappling hook, now i could use it on that thing over there, wow this is a whole new place, and it took me to that thing i couldn't interact with before, but it's similar to the route i took, progress."

Tender Bender
Sep 17, 2004

ArmyOfMidgets posted:

I think it mostly boils down to him giving dungeon design more importance while actively seeing the franchise focus more on puzzles.

Yeah, the franchise hasn't really focused on navigating a labyrinth since probably the first game. I do like the dungeons where the whole thing is basically a big puzzle you need to figure out (some of the better LTTP dungeons and most of Majora's come to mind), but even then the emphasis is on finding the right path, not choosing a path. There's one dungeon in LBW that is mostly just about getting to the other side of one huge room and it put a huge smile on my face when I realized it.

Mr Phillby
Apr 8, 2009

~TRAVIS~
I'm still confused over the why he dislikes WW for cutting out backtracking but likes Minish Cap for the same reason. The only real difference is that in MC you get the item halfway through the circle instead of at the end.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


s.i.r.e. posted:

But there wasn't any character development in Other M.

Yep, they point out all the issues she has and then the game ends with her having not moved forward to overcome those issues in the slightest, no character development there.

Mr Phillby posted:

I'm still confused over the why he dislikes WW for cutting out backtracking but likes Minish Cap for the same reason. The only real difference is that in MC you get the item halfway through the circle instead of at the end.

The backtracking in WW was essentially funneling you toward the solution to a puzzle, rather than just working as a convenience.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

I think the answer to what I, personally, want out of Zelda dungeon design is basically Link Between Worlds, really. Just looking at two Lorule dungeons, I think it does a great job of both less linear and more linear dungeons.

On the less linear end, you've got something like the Dark Palace. In the very first room, you're introduced to the dungeon's two main mechanics. First, you see a gap that you can't cross with a platform of a kind that you've seen move before, but it doesn't move. There's a switch you can hit, so you hit it, and it moves the platform immediately. But how do you make the platform move while you're on it? You set a bomb next to the switch, get on the platform before the bomb goes off, and then get ferried to the other side. So now you know there are times when you'll have to use a bomb to hit a switch after a delay. Then, you see two eyeball-shaped switches--one is open, with light shining on it from a window, and the other is closed, with a boarded up window above it. So you throw a bomb up to to destroy the boards, the light shines down and hits the eyeball, and the door opens leading you to the next room. Now you know that you need to shine light on the eyeball switches and you're going to need to blow things up to do it.

And that's it! That's everything you need to know in the dungeon, and from there you're free to explore and figure it out as one dungeon-sized puzzle. And you found out from a nice little tutorial room that doesn't hit you with text boxes, nor does it feel like it's wasting your time: you interact with the two main puzzle mechanics and, in doing so, understand how they work. For the rest of the dungeon, your job is to shine light down from the top floor to the bottom floor to hit six eyeball switches, and you do this by blowing up boards on windows, blowing holes in the floor, and going between different floors to access different sides of the top floor.

On the more linear end, there's the Thieves' Hideout. At first, there's not too much going on, other than it's a dungeon that makes some great use of switches to raise and lower platforms and requires you to merge into walls a whole lot. Eventually, you free the Thief Girl, but doing so blocks your previous path. Now you have to escort her out of the dungeon. You end up going through some of the rooms you've gone through before, but now you have to approach them differently, because you have two people who have to get through, and one of them can't turn into a moving painting on a wall. (As a side note, the boss of that dungeon is pretty fun, too, because you have to use your merge-into-walls power to merge into his shield and trick him into dropping his guard. And by the time that part of the fight gets predictable, he drops the shield and goes berserker on you, so you just have a straight-up fight to finish it off. I like how Link Between Worlds's bosses shift up their mechanics enough that they rarely make you feel like you have to repeat the same set of actions too many times.)

Mr Phillby posted:

I'm still confused over the why he dislikes WW for cutting out backtracking but likes Minish Cap for the same reason. The only real difference is that in MC you get the item halfway through the circle instead of at the end.

The difference is that in Wind Waker, it dumps you right to where you need the item (or gives you the item immediately after you first encounter something that might require you to use it), while in Minish Cap, it takes you to a room you recognize, but not directly to the room where you need to use the item. So:
  • In Wind Waker, an observant player might notice they needed the boomerang in Room A, but then they get guided straight to Room A after getting the boomerang, and it doesn't matter that they noticed earlier that they'd need it--they're never rewarded for being observant.
  • In Minish Cap, an observant player might notice they needed the boomerang in Room A, and after they get the boomerang, a shortcut takes them to Room B, which is another room they've been to before that's closer to Room A than where they got the boomerang. Now they can go, "Oh hey, I remember I needed the boomerang in Room A, I should head there" and feel a little bit like they figured something out for themselves. And if the player didn't notice or doesn't remember, they don't have far to look--they don't have to go combing through every room they've been to trying to find the next path. It's a good middle ground, basically.

Keiya
Aug 22, 2009

Come with me if you want to not die.

TFRazorsaw posted:

I guess I'm just still annoyed at that stupid Aaron Diaz concept and might be over projecting.

But I dunno. Link does get some of that stuff yeah, but his core concept is the adventuring knight, yeah? He never goes full on mage, and he's certainly never been a ninja. A stronger, more absolute emphasis on those qualities instead of just dabbling in it like Link does is more what I was thinking.

But you do have a point. I'm just trying to clarify what I was thinking.

Eh, I think Diaz was right that you'd want to focus more on Zelda's magical abilities as her core tools, supplemented with a few handy items.

TFRazorsaw posted:

Look how about we just give Phantom Zelda her own game?

This would also be acceptable. It's still a different approach to problems than Link uses (while still fitting the puzzley gameplay)

Electromax
May 6, 2007
I guess the "reward for being observant" thing falls a little flat to me because that applies to 6 year olds playing their first Zelda game. Much of the audience has played at least one of these kinds of games before and we know if we see open eye symbols or tentacle danglers that we're probably getting arrows or boomerangs soon or whatever. It doesn't feel like being observant, it's just mentally adding a Ubisoft quest marker to that room for when you get the item to let you address it. The more I grow up the more artificial it feels to pretend I'm "solving a puzzle" when they're as simple as they are, so I don't mind WW skipping the pretense and just getting on with it.

It's rare for games to make me feel clever for solving a puzzle. Occasionally stuff like Portal 2 and Silent Hill 3 gets there, but it's hard to design a good puzzle/dungeon to appeal to the lifelong adventurers that's still solvable for all skill levels.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

The more that I think about it, the more I think that Zelda dungeon design would be improved by just giving the player tools and items outside of the dungeons instead of inside of them. In Link Between Worlds, this leads to dungeons that get right to the stuff you actually want in the dungeon, right away: you want to use the dungeon's key item to solve puzzles, so boom, right from room one, let's do that, let's have a great time. It means that dungeons can be wide open from the start if they want to (like the Dark Palace) or immediately start building up from simple to more complex puzzles revolving around the central item(s).

I'm not saying every Zelda should have you rent or buy the items, either. A lot of the Zelda games have quests before you get into a dungeon, so just give you the item during that so you already have it when you get into the dungeon.

Electromax posted:

It's rare for games to make me feel clever for solving a puzzle. Occasionally stuff like Portal 2 and Silent Hill 3 gets there, but it's hard to design a good puzzle/dungeon to appeal to the lifelong adventurers that's still solvable for all skill levels.

I'm curious what Link Between Worlds would be like if it was someone's first Zelda game. As someone who's played a bunch of them, I think its puzzles hit a fantastic balance of being fun to solve without being frustrating to try to figure out, and most of the dungeons feel open enough that I feel rewarded for exploring without being big and directionless enough that I end up wandering around for an hour trying to figure out which path is the right one. But at the same time, I'm coming in basically knowing what every visual cue means right away.

Harrow fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jan 19, 2017

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

Harrow posted:

The more that I think about it, the more I think that Zelda dungeon design would be improved by just giving the player tools and items outside of the dungeons instead of inside of them. In Link Between Worlds, this leads to dungeons that get right to the stuff you actually want in the dungeon, right away: you want to use the dungeon's key item to solve puzzles, so boom, right from room one, let's do that, let's have a great time. It means that dungeons can be wide open from the start if they want to (like the Dark Palace) or immediately start building up from simple to more complex puzzles revolving around the central item(s).

I don't know. I really like the feeling of getting a new item within a dungeon, it's like a gameplay reward for doing the level. You get a cool thing to play with both inside and outside of wherever you found it and it can open up a couple of possibilities for exploration. The dungeons in Link Between Worlds were really good and I loved that game but I did miss the feeling of completing a dungeon and then having something new to play with outside of it.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

SyntheticPolygon posted:

I don't know. I really like the feeling of getting a new item within a dungeon, it's like a gameplay reward for doing the level. You get a cool thing to play with both inside and outside of wherever you found it and it can open up a couple of possibilities for exploration. The dungeons in Link Between Worlds were really good and I loved that game but I did miss the feeling of completing a dungeon and then having something new to play with outside of it.

Yeah, I suppose that's fair. Really, both approaches could exist within the same game. Some dungeons could give you the item outside, and others inside, just depending on the dungeon, which would also be another tool to add diversity to dungeon layouts.

romanowski
Nov 10, 2012

Calaveron posted:

Each of the four giant mechanical divine beasts is totally a dungeon

before E3 there was a rumor that there would be 4 main dungeons and 100+ smaller dungeons, then E3 happened and they confirmed the 100+ shrines so yeah you right. i think 4 main dungeons and 100 shrines sounds cool and good as long as there's a good variety of shrines

youcallthatatwist
Sep 22, 2013
My guess for BOTW is that each dungeon will be built around a concept instead of an item. We've already seen that link obtains his runes from shrines outside of dungeons, which implies an emphasis on finding creative ways to approach puzzles instead of searching for the "one solution". I'm excited about that, and I bet Mark Brown will be too.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

romanowski posted:

before E3 there was a rumor that there would be 4 main dungeons and 100+ smaller dungeons, then E3 happened and they confirmed the 100+ shrines so yeah you right. i think 4 main dungeons and 100 shrines sounds cool and good as long as there's a good variety of shrines

I think this is the way to do it. There's usually 1 or 2 actually innovative dungeons in each game and the rest is always fire/water/forest over and over again. I'd like to see four really good dungeons and then they can phone it in for the shrines.

Alxprit
Feb 7, 2015

<click> <click> What is it with this dancing?! Bouncing around like fools... I would have thought my own kind at least would understand the seriousness of our Adventurer's Guild!

I'm just happy you guys are noticing Minish Cap's dungeon design and appreciating it, to be honest. I almost never hear good stuff about that game.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006
:negative:
The shrine music in this game is totally the cave theme from Link's Awakening right

Febreeze
Oct 24, 2011

I want to care, butt I dont

romanowski posted:

before E3 there was a rumor that there would be 4 main dungeons and 100+ smaller dungeons, then E3 happened and they confirmed the 100+ shrines so yeah you right. i think 4 main dungeons and 100 shrines sounds cool and good as long as there's a good variety of shrines

Variety is going to be key. I like the sound of 4 main dungeons and cojaffee is right that there are usually 2 really new, great dungeons per game and others tend to just exist so more time focused on smaller dungeon amounts will probably mean better dungeons

the 100 shrines doesn't ease my mind on the worry that most of the game will be filler though. A map that keeps getting talked about for how massive it is, and there are 4 dungeons? 100 shrines sounds great at first, but how do you make 100+ shrines not feel samey and dull by like shrine 30? How big are these shrines? Like a puzzle room like that one room in TP with the ice blocks? I keep picturing shrines like those random caves you'd find in OoT or MM, little holes in the ground with a single thing of interest, which is cool, but again, 100+?

Im worried most of the game is going to be wandering around looking for something genuinely interesting to do

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius
Do we know what clearing the shrines does? They can't all have items, I doubt there's 100+ items in the game. Maybe it's like Oblivion gates where you can clear it out if you want, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Cojawfee posted:

Do we know what clearing the shrines does? They can't all have items, I doubt there's 100+ items in the game. Maybe it's like Oblivion gates where you can clear it out if you want, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

Not every item is going to be a massive game changer, some shrines will probably contain the usual quiver/etc upgrades or unique weapons/armor/equipment.

I. M. Gei
Jun 26, 2005

CHIEFS

BITCH



Do we know whether any more Special Editions are going to show up on Amazon? I'm trying to figure out whether to go ahead and just reserve the regular version at GameStop or hold out for a possible Special Edition on Amazon.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006
:negative:

ImpAtom posted:

Not every item is going to be a massive game changer, some shrines will probably contain the usual quiver/etc upgrades or unique weapons/armor/equipment.

Now I want a series of rewards based on the hero's tunic in pretty much every color

youcallthatatwist
Sep 22, 2013

Cojawfee posted:

Do we know what clearing the shrines does? They can't all have items, I doubt there's 100+ items in the game. Maybe it's like Oblivion gates where you can clear it out if you want, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

It looks like each shrine gives you a spirit orb, which can presumably be exchanged for goodies somewhere. Essentially each one will be a mini challenge, and the ones on the plateau seem to be exceptions in how easy they are, because they're basically tutorial rooms for the runes. The others they showed at E3 were significantly more complex.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007

Dr. Gitmo Moneyson posted:

Do we know whether any more Special Editions are going to show up on Amazon? I'm trying to figure out whether to go ahead and just reserve the regular version at GameStop or hold out for a possible Special Edition on Amazon.

Do you have Prime? If so, just preorder the regular version there and save $12. You could always "Switch" your preorder to a Master/Special edition if they get back in stock.

Lets Pickle
Jul 9, 2007

Febreeze posted:

I like what this dude is trying to do but I wish he'd spend more time talking about the dungeons on their own merits instead of obviously just pinning for Zelda 1. Zelda 1 dungeons aren't going to happen again. BotW will have a Zelda 1 overworld but I doubt we'll ever get the mythical puzzle dungeon he's looking for again. He also seems way too in love with "water level/direction" as a dungeon mechanic.

I guess his videos are technically about structure and design but I've always enjoyed dungeons for the other reasons he glosses over. I've always gravitated towards atmosphere and presentation over the puzzles. I don't like it when things are too linear, but I'm far more willing to forgive a more linear dungeon if it's presented well than a super puzzle dungeon that takes me out of it because I have to spend too much time thinking. I actually really like the Water Temple now that i know how to beat it, but the first time through sucked. The best is obviously a good balance.

It's probably why I really like TP's dungeons so much. They aren't hard but they have a great sense of place for me. Snowpeak, Arbiter, City in the Sky, and Temple of Time are all very memorable to me because they had that atmosphere I look for. Snowpeak had the best balance of puzzle/presentation and that's why I think it gets remembered so fondly.

I think what I enjoyed most about TP is that I played through the game blind and many of the dungeon items were a huge surprise up until the moment I got them. When I beat the Arbiter's Grounds, I didn't know what item I would be getting at all. The spinner was super cool, even though it was stupid outside of that one dungeon. At snowpeak I expected to get some kind of fire item to melt the big pieces of ice, and instead I got a freakin ball and chain. In the Temple of time I thought I would get some kind of teleportation object,. but instead I got to control robots!

The problem I had with TP was that these unique, cool dungeon items had almost no use outside of the dungeons they were designed for. Except for the ball and chain, which was sick as hell. I would have loved to see the spinner or Rod of Something be useful against some enemies.

Skyward Sword had some good points, like the dungeons, and some bad points, like everything else.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Almost done with Link Between Worlds. I really love this game's dungeons. Well, Turtle Rock felt kind of like it was thrown together from a bunch of simple, disconnected mechanics and only basically had two nearly-identical rooms, but every other dungeon was good as hell. I haven't done the final one yet, so I hope it's just as fun.

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Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius
I think Skyward Sword definitely makes better use of items than Twilight Princess even if TP had some more interesting items. Even then, it is rare to use certain items in Skyward Sword. It does do a pretty decent job of reminding the player to use certain items. There was one dungeon where I didn't really know what to do until I got to a room that had dust piles in it. I used the blower thing on them and then realized that it also worked on another type of thing on the ground which helped to open up new areas. While not super realistic, it trains you to look for specific types of things like the hookshot targets, the dust piles, and the whip branches. I also think it's interesting that the bow is the last item you get in the game. The sword and the bow are the two main staples of Zelda games and they end up being first and last in this game.

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