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Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Closed-Down Pizza Parlor posted:

What, exactly, do you think those kids are doing on those phones if not socializing in some manner?

Playing the same few games over and over. These are little kids they can barely even read, they aren't sitting there chatting with friends, these are like 2-5 year olds.

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Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


starkebn posted:

Why use butter on a sandwich at all?
Because you're a civilised person and not an American.

hard counter posted:

but at least for the foreseeable future you would definitely be a drag on your 'community' imho because you still need things from other people and giving nothing in return is lousy if you're otherwise able-bodied
Sure, but someone who's lazy and doesn't want to work is going to be a drag on their community regardless. You can force someone to get a job, but you can't actually make them do it, much less do it well. The people who are just collecting the dole for years or scamming disability or whatever aren't going to be good workers, they're going to do as little as possible and get in the way and make life harder for anyone who has to work with them. If someone would rather live on less than the minimum wage and watch TV all day than work, I say let them. It's really no loss.

hard counter posted:

to be honest i've never had a totally pointless job even at the entry level but if those really do exist somewhere than yeah i see what you mean in that case
They definitely exist. I had a job for a few months where I spent half my time doing stuff that could have been automated and taken a fraction of the time and the other half reading Cracked articles because even doing it the slow way it didn't take me that long to do. In that case they did realise eventually that that job was a complete waste of time, but in that same office there were still about a dozen people doing the work of six.

RoboRodent posted:

Mayonnaise by itself is nasty.
Mayonnaise is delicious.

Baronjutter posted:

Playing the same few games over and over. These are little kids they can barely even read, they aren't sitting there chatting with friends, these are like 2-5 year olds.
How much socialising do you think a two-year-old normally does?

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

Is Casey Neistat like Sergey Brin's cousin or something because I see his loving videos advertised all over youtube constantly no matter what I'm watching. I always click I'm not interested but if I'm watching a dumb video about Resident Evil I see another ad for Casey neistat. Please gently caress off casey neistat I will never ever click on your loving videos.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





Tiggum posted:

Sure, but someone who's lazy and doesn't want to work is going to be a drag on their community regardless. You can force someone to get a job, but you can't actually make them do it, much less do it well. The people who are just collecting the dole for years or scamming disability or whatever aren't going to be good workers, they're going to do as little as possible and get in the way and make life harder for anyone who has to work with them. If someone would rather live on less than the minimum wage and watch TV all day than work, I say let them. It's really no loss.

if someone could prove to a designated committee/other authoritative body that they suffer from a clinical case of psychological laziness or whatever i would be alright with that person being classed as disabled/unable to work but that's not going to be the case for the vast majority of people - most lazy people just need to grow a spine about taking on a degree of responsibility for their well-being instead of living a juvenile dream where they're still a 5 year old whose mommy and daddy will do absolutely everything for them while they play xbox, where they don't have to put in minimal effort to take care of themselves; if it takes someone undergoing the incredible odyssey of growing up to get there that's fine, that's a journey nearly all other people have undertaken anyway

i would much rather live in world where the genuinely disabled are afforded a better, actually comfortable standard of living through the combined efforts of others than a world where that net's broadened to include the able-but-lazy under the same system that provides a sub-par standard of living for the involuntarily disabled

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


hard counter posted:

i would much rather live in world where the genuinely disabled are afforded a better, actually comfortable standard of living through the combined efforts of others than a world where that net's broadened to include the able-but-lazy under the same system that provides a sub-par standard of living for the involuntarily disabled

Those aren't the only two options though. I'd just let people collect unemployment indefinitely and without hassle so they don't need to pretend they're looking for a job or injured or whatever, and also have a separate system in place to provide services and support to people with disabilities.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





before we live in the pseudo-star trek times of optional labor i think there are a number of issues that still require the collective effort of the able-bodied - if we can't adequately take care of the involuntarily disabled with current means what chance do have of both elevating their care and taking on the lazy with existing resources? there are steeper issues as well of people dying of totally unmet needs globally where even modest contributions can make a world of difference locally, someone could make an argument for more ambitious contributions from everyone considering the involved stakes and inequalities

either way, whatever breakthroughs in organization, government, taxation, technology, international relations, etc that would put those things behind us will be a multi-lateral approach that'll require the work of essentially everyone, whether it's the humble contribution of someone's tax dollars, someone actually making the necessary changes to governance or someone producing the physical innovations to get there; dudes checking out of work just because they don't wanna just represents another person to cover with someone's else labor

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

steinrokkan posted:

As B. Fuller said´: "We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living."

I think you mean F. Bueller?

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

Closed-Down Pizza Parlor posted:

What, exactly, do you think those kids are doing on those phones if not socializing in some manner?

Phone is not a replacement for actual socialization, or even just observing one's surroundings. Also kids who grew up with intensive use of phones and other gadgets during their formative years have worse kinesthetic skills.

Ramagamma
Feb 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
Found out there is a dude in my office who comes in on saturdays as well as staying in the office till 7/8 at night monday to friday, decent job he has but its not management or even salary based.

Genuinely distraught, how loving empty must your life be that your leisure time comes second to working. This dudes like 50, lives with his parents and doesn't have a girlfriend? Hmm i loving wonder why.

Some folk man.

Sentient Data
Aug 31, 2011

My molecule scrambler ray will disintegrate your armor with one blow!
If the job isn't salaried, then at least the overtime's worth some major bucks

Ramagamma
Feb 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Sentient Data posted:

If the job isn't salaried, then at least the overtime's worth some major bucks

We don't get overtime in here bro, we get the choice to take the time back. At least in theory, my boss had a go at me because I'm taking the bus in on wednesday so i can drop off car for its mot. This despite me being in the office half an hour early 3 days a week when I'm dropping the bird off at work.

I'm just ranting like an entitled oval office but i seriously can't bend my head around people.

Its like one of my hometown mates, well educated, great job but he is 30 and is living with his folks, gets a 5am alarm to do a 80 mile commute rather than renting a flat closer to his job.

What is it with some folk being so loving scared to be a loving self sustaining adult?

Man i need a holiday.

Ramagamma has a new favorite as of 15:36 on Jan 30, 2017

Sentient Data
Aug 31, 2011

My molecule scrambler ray will disintegrate your armor with one blow!
Then yeah, unless he's basically saving up a few months of paid time off that he can cash in as a giant chunk, working those hours is idiotic.

Hell, I learned that the hard way a while ago when I was salaried - I worked myself to the point that I didn't just burn out, I totally crashed and burned and essentially wrecked my entire life for multiple years; I'm only now getting back on my feet, and doing so from the bottom in a completely different industry

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

Jerry Cotton posted:

I think you mean F. Bueller?

lol

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


hard counter posted:

if we can't adequately take care of the involuntarily disabled with current means
What makes you think we can't? If you're trying to say that we're not currently doing that, I know, I am advocating for change. If you think we literally couldn't due to an overall lack of resources then you're just wrong.

hard counter posted:

dudes checking out of work just because they don't wanna just represents another person to cover with someone's else labor
But they're already being covered anyway, just inefficiently. Whether they're half-arsing a job that someone else will have to do over or scamming disability or just collecting unemployment, time and resources are being spent on them. Even if they're doing none of that and just living on the streets they're still being propped up by society, only it's being done in a really inefficient way and causing even more problems.

steinrokkan posted:

Also kids who grew up with intensive use of phones and other gadgets during their formative years have worse kinesthetic skills.
I didn't think there'd been any conclusive studies on that kind of thing due to the short amount of time it's been happening and the difficulty of finding control subjects?

bean_shadow
Sep 27, 2005

If men had uteruses they'd be called duderuses.

Blue Star posted:

LOL at people saying that having a job is important for personal growth or motivation or whatever bullshit. No it loving isn't, you bourgeoisie fuckheads. Most people dont have fulfulling careers. Most people work lovely jobs to pay the bills, and often those jobs dont pay well enough to even do that. Working fast food and making 7.25 an hour isnt rewarding or fulfilling, and it isnt even important. We cant all be rockstars and astronauts. Many of us can't even be scientists, doctors, dentists, lawyers, social workers, teachers, and so on. Most people do crap that robots should be doing.

My cousin is a full-time photographer with his own studio, which he was able to do because of inheritance money and money from selling farmland his father left him. He constantly bitches about his half-sister having a job at the local bar, which she genuinely likes to do and it's not like it's a dive-bar or anything. It's a nice little pub type place downtown in an average central Iowa town. But it's not a CAREER and she should go back to school and do something fulfilling like he did when he got a bunch of money dumped in his lap. If she's happy with her job I don't see the big problem but it drives my cousin crazy.

It's not a big surprise that he voted for Gary Johnson.

Ramagamma
Feb 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
The most loving miserable people i know are the ones who have a good education and a professional career and are either borderline alcoholics or are obsessing over diet and fitness as they rapidly sink into their 30s and see their youth slipping away.

Incidentally the happiest are the dudes who drive busses or work in small local bars and smoke weed in their spare time.

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

bean_shadow posted:

My cousin is a full-time photographer with his own studio, which he was able to do because of inheritance money and money from selling farmland his father left him. He constantly bitches about his half-sister having a job at the local bar, which she genuinely likes to do and it's not like it's a dive-bar or anything. It's a nice little pub type place downtown in an average central Iowa town. But it's not a CAREER and she should go back to school and do something fulfilling like he did when he got a bunch of money dumped in his lap. If she's happy with her job I don't see the big problem but it drives my cousin crazy.

It's not a big surprise that he voted for Gary Johnson.

What Iowa town. Perhaps i should come tell her about DES MOINES.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





Tiggum posted:

What makes you think we can't? If you're trying to say that we're not currently doing that, I know, I am advocating for change. If you think we literally couldn't due to an overall lack of resources then you're just wrong.

i mentioned in the second line that this fix would itself require work, probably from slow gradual change from dudes passionately changing hearts and minds while making radical changes to government, while in the meantime working existing systems until these breakthroughs become mainstream - that needs work from all levels

as the last US election showed, no one's gonna flip a switch for good, efficient, altruistic government right now without meeting resistance, without having to put in the hours and without making due with existing means; not all labors are spent extracting resources

quote:

But they're already being covered anyway, just inefficiently. Whether they're half-arsing a job that someone else will have to do over or scamming disability or just collecting unemployment, time and resources are being spent on them. Even if they're doing none of that and just living on the streets they're still being propped up by society, only it's being done in a really inefficient way and causing even more problems.

the bare minimum requirements for continued employment were created by someone in HR who thought (s)he was creating a reasonable standard for all employees, if someone half-assing it can manage them they're fine by the company's own standards even if the rest of the team hates them; dudes committing disability fraud for no good clinical reason are just outright criminals whose willingness to exploit human beings should be isolated and rehabilitated, ideally with debts remunerated through community service as near as reasonable

Hardcordion
Feb 5, 2008

BARK BARK BARK
Everyone should get a guaranteed income from the government, not much but enough to survive off of, with the option of taking full- or part-time work to make more on top of that. If you'd rather spend your time working on personal projects, volunteering or smoking weed in front of the TV, you can do that and maybe just work two days out of the week. If you don't mind working more for a bigger paycheck, that's open to you too. The poor and uneducated would no longer have to work long hours at undesirable jobs just to keep their heads above water and corporations would be more free to automate their low paying, labor intensive positions to reduce overhead.

I'm no economist and I'm sure a comparatively massive tax rate would be needed for a country to pay for it, but it makes sense to me.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

That seems to be the only option when more and more things become automated and cheaper to produce.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Ramagamma posted:

The most loving miserable people i know are the ones who have a good education and a professional career and are either borderline alcoholics or are obsessing over diet and fitness as they rapidly sink into their 30s and see their youth slipping away.

Incidentally the happiest are the dudes who drive busses or work in small local bars and smoke weed in their spare time.

I dunno man, everyone I know who works in finance (like, equity research, risk management, etc) has a totally great life where they take awesome vacations and are always eating at fancy restaurants and don't work particularly bad hours. While there's a subset of high paying jobs that destroy your soul (like the first few years working as an investment banker), there's also a whole bunch that still pay a lot but require fairly normal hours. I think the best work to pay ratio is this girl I know who is an accountant at a hedge fund and makes like 200-300k despite keeping to a 40hr/week schedule.

I understand the appeal of wanting to think that people making a lot of money are all depressed and overworked, but in reality most of them seem to have lives that are objectively vastly superior to regular people.

edit: I agree with the post that said "Life is unfulfilling without work" is a privileged viewpoint that only applies to certain jobs. I would be tempted to agree that statement initially, but then I remember that my job (a programmer in academia) is exceptionally pleasant and low stress compared to the jobs most people work. If my job consisted of working retail or something I doubt I'd feel the same way.

Ytlaya has a new favorite as of 22:06 on Jan 30, 2017

Field Mousepad
Mar 21, 2010
BAE

Sentient Data posted:

Then yeah, unless he's basically saving up a few months of paid time off that he can cash in as a giant chunk, working those hours is idiotic.

Hell, I learned that the hard way a while ago when I was salaried - I worked myself to the point that I didn't just burn out, I totally crashed and burned and essentially wrecked my entire life for multiple years; I'm only now getting back on my feet, and doing so from the bottom in a completely different industry

Restaurant work I'm guessing?

Cause I did this exact same thing not too long ago.

bean_shadow
Sep 27, 2005

If men had uteruses they'd be called duderuses.

Ytlaya posted:

I understand the appeal of wanting to think that people making a lot of money are all depressed and overworked, but in reality most of them seem to have lives that are objectively vastly superior to regular people.

It's like the saying "money can't buy happiness". I'm convinced it's something rich people tell the poors to keep them down.

Danaru
Jun 5, 2012

何 ??

bean_shadow posted:

It's like the saying "money can't buy happiness". I'm convinced it's something rich people tell the poors to keep them down.

I've already done the poor and miserable thing, I'd love to try rich and miserable.

Das Boo
Jun 9, 2011

There was a GHOST here.
It's gone now.
At least if you're rich and miserable, you don't gotta worry about something as banal as how to pay for a broken leg. :argh:

spit on my clit
Jul 19, 2015

by Cyrano4747
with money, duh

Das Boo
Jun 9, 2011

There was a GHOST here.
It's gone now.
Gimme yours, just in case.

spit on my clit
Jul 19, 2015

by Cyrano4747
over my dead body

by that i mean i just put you in my will

Sentient Data
Aug 31, 2011

My molecule scrambler ray will disintegrate your armor with one blow!

Field Mousepad posted:

Restaurant work I'm guessing?

Cause I did this exact same thing not too long ago.

Used to do web work for a major company that's been in the news over the h1b fiasco, now I'm a mechanic. Good timing anyway, since the upcoming wave of "everybody learn to code"means the market rate will absolutely crash, but mechanic work will be around until long after I'm dead.

Hell, even if the country goes mandatory automated electric car before I'm gone, diesel engines for long hauling won't be going anywhere

AutumnDDP
Oct 23, 2016

Grimey Drawer

Ytlaya posted:

I agree with the post that said "Life is unfulfilling without work" is a privileged viewpoint that only applies to certain jobs. I would be tempted to agree that statement initially, but then I remember that my job (a programmer in academia) is exceptionally pleasant and low stress compared to the jobs most people work. If my job consisted of working retail or something I doubt I'd feel the same way.

Admittedly I do find my job interesting and intellectually fulfilling, so I'll agree with this viewpoint.

poptart_fairy
Apr 8, 2009

by R. Guyovich
If you are stuck in a dead-end retail job and make no attempt to change this, you have no grounds to complain. :colbert:

Seen so many people who are just treading water but absolutely refusing to make any sort of move. What the hell are you expecting at that point.

Low Desert Punk
Jul 4, 2012

i have absolutely no fucking money
I vastly prefer flat, deflated pillows to brand new ultra-fluffy ones. New pillows just seem to flop around and slide away from where they're supposed to be, and obnoxious softness makes me sleep worse.

There is no greater friend in this world than a lovely, futon-esque pillow you've had for 5 years.

yeah I eat ass
Mar 14, 2005

only people who enjoy my posting can replace this avatar
I've never found a pillow that is perfect for me so I don't know if I disagree with you entirely, but I definitely hate flat pillows that you have to bunch up to be comfortable. Everyone always raves about their 200 dollar memory foam or down feather pillows but they just don't do it for me.

Re: work - I can't imagine ever being happy in a salaried job where you are expected to work significantly longer than the standard 40. That's how my current job (in academia) is and it's absolutely miserable (to me), and I will be leaving at the earliest opportunity despite liking the research I do. In an ideal world no job would require, or even make it possible, for you to work from home. Once you start blending the two and always feel like you're supposed to be working, it's almost impossible to relax and take a break. Other people seem to manage it and have healthy lives and families etc but it's just not for me.

Gyro Zeppeli
Jul 19, 2012

sure hope no-one throws me off a bridge

poptart_fairy posted:

If you are stuck in a dead-end retail job and make no attempt to change this, you have no grounds to complain. :colbert:

Seen so many people who are just treading water but absolutely refusing to make any sort of move. What the hell are you expecting at that point.

The job market is absolutely hosed these days. A lot of people would love to make some kind of move, but if the oppertunity doesn't exist, of course they can't.

starkebn
May 18, 2004

"Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Gyro Zeppeli posted:

The job market is absolutely hosed these days. A lot of people would love to make some kind of move, but if the oppertunity doesn't exist, of course they can't.

In my day if you didn't like your boss you walked to the mechanic down the road and told them you needed work, starting right there and then because he liked your spunk. Lazy millennials just need to get off their arses I say.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Low Desert Punk posted:

I vastly prefer flat, deflated pillows to brand new ultra-fluffy ones. New pillows just seem to flop around and slide away from where they're supposed to be, and obnoxious softness makes me sleep worse.
My sisters complain that "boys ruin pillows" and they can't stand the cushions I have on my couch (because I've made them comfortable). :shrug:

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

Hardcordion posted:

Everyone should get a guaranteed income from the government, not much but enough to survive off of, with the option of taking full- or part-time work to make more on top of that. If you'd rather spend your time working on personal projects, volunteering or smoking weed in front of the TV, you can do that and maybe just work two days out of the week. If you don't mind working more for a bigger paycheck, that's open to you too. The poor and uneducated would no longer have to work long hours at undesirable jobs just to keep their heads above water and corporations would be more free to automate their low paying, labor intensive positions to reduce overhead.

I'm no economist and I'm sure a comparatively massive tax rate would be needed for a country to pay for it, but it makes sense to me.

Yeah but GMI/Negative Income Tax is a nonsense socialist scheme that's only been proposed by such hardcore commies as Adam Smith and.....Milton...Friedman...? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

poptart_fairy
Apr 8, 2009

by R. Guyovich

Gyro Zeppeli posted:

The job market is absolutely hosed these days. A lot of people would love to make some kind of move, but if the oppertunity doesn't exist, of course they can't.

I specified people who make no effort, not people who make the effort but have no opportunities.

Tony Bologna
Sep 21, 2007

Talk real good 'cause I'm smart and stuff
Bill Withers is the greatest person to ever make music, bar none.

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Field Mousepad
Mar 21, 2010
BAE

Sentient Data posted:

Used to do web work for a major company that's been in the news over the h1b fiasco, now I'm a mechanic. Good timing anyway, since the upcoming wave of "everybody learn to code"means the market rate will absolutely crash, but mechanic work will be around until long after I'm dead.

Hell, even if the country goes mandatory automated electric car before I'm gone, diesel engines for long hauling won't be going anywhere

Mechanic work is always needed, my dad has been doing it for 30 years and he can go anywhere and pretty much tell his employer how much he wants to be paid. Good move on your part!

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