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What it sounds like is that wizards no longer have a "default" grimoire. Every spell they learn on level-up they "memorize" so they always know it regardless of what grimoire they equip. Grimoires offer extra spells and a special bonus because they're a piece of equipment, and you can't scribe spells into a grimoire or use a grimoire to add a spell to your permanent, "memorized" spell list.
Harrow fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 17:09
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Because I care about the player experience that it engenders, but very little about the idea that the mechanic absolutely has to be mastered to complete the game. After all, role-playing games service many audiences, and the game already features a difficulty mode that exists specifically to make combat challenge trivial to the point that anyone can complete the game. Per rest mechanics don't actually make a game harder though. They are an embuggerance, not a challenge.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:12
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Walrus Pete posted:Without having to feed 100cp into the grimoire's mysterious money-hungry maw this time? (sorry, should have included this in my original question) Harrow posted:What it sounds like is that wizards no longer have a "default" grimoire. Every spell they learn on level-up they "memorize" so they always know it. Grimoires offer extra spells and a special bonus because they're a piece of equipment, and you can't scribe spells into a grimoire or use a grimoire to add a spell to your permanent, "memorized" spell list.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:12
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Avalerion posted:The old poe thread did have a guy who refused to rest in bg2, when he was describing his elaborate kitting tactics it made it sound like a completely different game. Was kind of funny but I'm starting to see how your playstyle and self imposed limitations like that can make two people discuss this from vastly different positions. Like maybe on potd halt and barbs of condemnation are actually good and usefull spells. Potd makes it so buffs/debuffs are required rather than optional. That blessing or devotions of the faithful you cast on Hard or Normal to give yourself an edge is instead being cast on POTD just to be able to reliably hit enemies. I imagine Obsidian focuses more on balancing encounters on Hard and below than on POTD. For one thing Potd is for people who want to get the poo poo kicked out of them, so there is more leeway there. If Ropekid accidentally makes an encounter harder than he intended most of the Potd sperg lords like myself will actually be happy about that  .
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Feb 2, 2017 17:13
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mitochondritom posted:Was that Sensuki? Name rings a bell so could be. He really hated engagement because it wouldn't let him do his kitting shenanigans.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:13
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rope kid posted:Correct. Even if you don't have a grimoire equipped (e.g. if you wanted to use a different class trinket), you'd still have access to your level-up learned spells and would still animate with a default grimoire in hand because, well, it looks cool. You just wouldn't have access to any additional spells. So, if wizards are able to cast their inherent spells without a grimoire will priests/druids function similarly (learning spells, plus bonus spells from trinkets) or are they still "you get all the spells"?
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Feb 2, 2017 17:16
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Ginette Reno posted:Potd makes it so buffs/debuffs are required rather than optional. That blessing or devotions of the faithful you cast on Hard or Normal to give yourself an edge is instead being cast on POTD just to be able to reliably hit enemies.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:17
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rope kid posted:Correct. Cool, thanks for confirming. Sounds like finding a grimoire is gonna be more exciting in Deadfire than PoE's "scribe spells, throw in junk pile" 
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Feb 2, 2017 17:17
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Lt. Danger posted:The point of debate was "does Vancian casting imbue the game with long-term strategic management?", not - with respect - "will Fair Bear Maiden like this change?" My argument is that Vancian casting doesn't inherently create long-term strategic management, and cannot unless you drop the free-form exploration element of the game. I... don't remember ever arguing that Vancian casting added fundamental long-term resource management ultimately tied to a failstate or another form of punitive consequence for the player in case of a mess-up, though? I was simply arguing in favor of the status quo because I felt it produced good results. I admittedly don't have a large sample size, and I certainly haven't studied player behavior nearly as much as Rope Kid, but even when I observed other people play, you'd sooner see them drop the difficulty than actually go back to town to grab more camping supplies. quote:I'm not sure what your point about Story Mode is - surely this is an argument in favour of system mastery, since inept players can always drop the difficulty? Let me start from the ending, because you seem to have interpreted my tone as far more worried than it is. I'm fundamentally open to trying this mechanic and I don't think it will corrupt the core gameplay or the experience of playing a wizard/priest/druid. There is obviously a difference in terms of thought process between "should I save this spell for later?" and "should I save this Empower use for later?" otherwise it would make no sense to change the mechanic. We both agree on that, right? Ultimately the crux of my argument is that I found the first thought process more interesting to deal with, while being fully aware that, yes, I could ultimately blow all resources and go back to buy more camping supplies. Games are full of mechanics that exist simply to add texture or slightly nudge player behavior, and I suppose I generally tend to be pretty accepting of them. As for my difficulty comment, I was just pointing out an example of the ways the developers attempted to cater to an audience wider than that of players interested in system mastery. There already was an out for players that were interested in ultimately low-stakes gameplay, while what I considered the majority of players (I am most likely wrong on this, which certainly goes a long way to explain the change!) would continue to play the game as intended, rationing spells throughout multiple encounters and resting only when necessary.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:20
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Speaking of Devo, the worst thing about per encounter casting is gonna be spamming buffs and your upkeep spells at the start of every fight. I hope they just make all simple buffs passives including summoned weapons and just allow me to empower whichever just to save me clicks. But I guess that won't be happening since I seem to recall we have to counter cast buffs to offset debuffs? That sounds tedious with per encounter casting. Might as well just 12345 all the common buffs that counter the debuffs.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:21
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Ginette Reno posted:If Ropekid accidentally makes an encounter harder than he intended most of the Potd sperg lords like myself will actually be happy about that Was that the case with the adra dragon I wonder? That's the only one that felt genuinely unfair. 
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Feb 2, 2017 17:22
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Chairchucker posted:Per rest mechanics don't actually make a game harder though. They are an embuggerance, not a challenge. It works if there's a limiting external factor (some kind of countdown timer, a limited number of rests between checkpoints, etc.) that specifically encourages you to maximize what you get from each rest optimally. As Lt. Danger said, though, it doesn't really work with low stakes exploration-style games, because something like a countdown timer is at odds with a game that wants to fully encourage you to explore every nook and cranny. It's why I'm glad that they've moved to a system that by-and-large is focused on encounter-to-encounter management. Fair Bear Maiden posted:I admittedly don't have a large sample size, and I certainly haven't studied player behavior nearly as much as Rope Kid, but even when I observed other people play, you'd sooner see them drop the difficulty than actually go back to town to grab more camping supplies. If the driving force behind optimally spending resources in a video game is "I don't want the game to tediously waste my time traveling through load zones," then the game's resource system is busted. Vermain fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 17:23
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Rascyc posted:Devo is great but it's by all means not required to hit things on Potd mode. You can play the entire potd campaign without a priest and relegate prayer spells to scrolls. For most trash encounters yeah but any tougher fight is going to be pretty annoying without +accuracy spells/abilities. Other classes have them but Priests have the best party sized ones. Avalerion posted:Was that the case with the adra dragon I wonder? That's the only one that felt genuinely unfair. Dunno, but when the game was first released you could petrify that dragon and chunk it in seconds flat so it wasn't bad if you knew that. They eventually changed it so you can only paralyze it now and now it is quite a bitch. I think you can still charm it maybe? Not sure off the top of my head. Sam Clemens has better knowledge than me when it comes to charm loving enemies in Poe1 .
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Feb 2, 2017 17:24
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One thing I'm excited to know more about is the "inspirations" system rope kid posted about a few days ago. It sounded like priests will still be the best at buffs and at counteracting afflictions, but won't be the only real choice for that anymore, because other classes can provide similar "inspirations" that can counteract status effects. If that's the case, I'm happy about that, because while I like priests, I always felt like they were a bit too mandatory for tough fights, and having a way to have a party without a priest without needing to rely entirely on scrolls to prevent status effects would be really nice.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:27
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Ginette Reno posted:For most trash encounters yeah but any tougher fight is going to be pretty annoying without +accuracy spells/abilities. Other classes have them but Priests have the best party sized ones. The extent or what's needed is limited by the players knowledge of the difficulty setting. A lot of people don't touch scrolls and thus don't realize that fighters are hilariously the best debuff casters in the game or that paladins can sworn enemy a boss and land almost every debuff you can craft. Rascyc fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 17:27
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Ladolcevita posted:People seriously just spammed spells in PoE1, rested after every fight, left 1/4 way through the dungeon to go rest in town and buy camping supplies, returned to dungeon, spam spells, rested after every fight; left 1/2 way through dungeon....rinse and repeat? Talk about a tedious bore. Only for Endless Paths when I knew there was something cool I wanted on a floor, and I wasn't going to do something stupid like "Level to an appropriate point and come back when you are really prepared for this floor and actually have a full party". But I mean yeah, totally. Only downside is a pathological hatred of Ogre Druids. I would totally clear half them out carefully keeping dudes to as few pulls as possible, trying to exploit doorways and such to limit the amount that could get to my front guys at once, and just wildly ejaculate all spells to drop them. Then come back and do it again. And if they have a problem with that, well, the dumb shits shouldn't have lived under my keep should they?
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Feb 2, 2017 17:27
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Rascyc posted:Sure but they are not required. Barbarians with stacks of jolting touch. 
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Feb 2, 2017 17:31
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:Barbarians with stacks of jolting touch. I made it my goal this year to stop replaying my favourite games and try more new stuff in my steam backlog, but drat if comments like this don't have me itching to re-download Pillars an make a 6 man Wizard Barbarian party...
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Feb 2, 2017 17:35
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Rascyc posted:Sure but they are not required. I don't think a lot of people realize either that Eldritch Aim is one of the best spells a Wizard can cast and you really want to toss that on before throwing out your most lethal status effects.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:40
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oswald ownenstein posted:Fortitude save spells were the hardest to use because there isn't much readily available that lowers fortitude - but once you get noxious burst you can use the sickened from that to help land fortitude nukes or debuffs Eh, theoretically yes, but stacking Accuracy in PoE was so easy that you could pretty much always land your Fortitude spells by the time you hit the mid-game, aside from maybe in the dragon fights. There really wasn't anything preventing you from trivialising the game with Shadowflame apart from your own sense of honour. Even on PotD, the game isn't so hard that you're prevented from brute forcing your way through most encounters. Trial of Iron is a bit different because you can't afford to screw up, but even then, you're given a lot of leeway. Which is fine with me because the alternative is going the SCS route where you need to have the correct counter to an enemy or else you're completely screwed. To a certain extent, tacictal versatility always comes at the expense of difficulty. Ginette Reno posted:Sam Clemens has better knowledge than me when it comes to charm loving enemies in Poe1 All dragons can be charmed, except for one dragon in the Llengrath fight, who can be dominated instead. It's probably the easiest way of winning these encounters.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:42
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I am wondering, Josh, if people couldn't wrap their brains around something as a simple as health/endurance, how are you planning to teach them this multi-classing system where a Fighter 4/Rogue 3 is secretly a Fighter 5/Rogue 4 and a bit?
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Feb 2, 2017 17:43
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Rascyc posted:Sure but they are not required. Ginette Reno posted:I don't think a lot of people realize either that Eldritch Aim is one of the best spells a Wizard can cast and you really want to toss that on before throwing out your most lethal status effects. I'm doing a playthrough on hard right now and while I'm not a complete scrub this is the sort of stuff that just never occurs to me. Seems like you don't need to do any of this unless you're doing a PotD run, so, what, 95% of players will never need to bother with any of it? I'm glad Obsidian is so willing to scrap systems if they aren't working. I'd hate for them to latch on to something like per-rest abilities because that's how they did it in the first game. And getting back to the Health/Stamina system it is stupid and unintuitive so I am not sad to see it going.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:46
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Ladolcevita posted:For me personally, a huge part of the fun of PoE1 and of the IE games was the strategic element of adventuring. Rationing spells, health, camping supplies, etc. over the course of a dungeon. The two changes that Rope kid proposed last night, removing strategic health and removing Vancian magic, go a long way to completely eliminating that layer of strategic depth from the game. rope kid posted:He would be able to cast Slicken, Spirit Shield, Fan of Flames, and Chill Fog. He would also have any bonus effect that is on the grimoire. rope kid posted:Correct. So does that mean that if you have X level-up spells, Y spells in your grimoire and Z is the number of spells present in both X and Y, then the number of spells you have access to in any specific battle is (X + Y - Z)? If yes, can I ask what is the point of preventing ability bloat in the Priest and Druid if you're just going to do it again with the Wizard?
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Feb 2, 2017 17:50
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Samuel Clemens posted:Eh, theoretically yes, but stacking Accuracy in PoE was so easy that you could pretty much always land your Fortitude spells by the time you hit the mid-game, aside from maybe in the dragon fights. There really wasn't anything preventing you from trivialising the game with Shadowflame apart from your own sense of honour. If you invested in interdiction you could get a massive per encounter priest AOE that dazed and weakened enemies making them super vulnerable to CC.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:49
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:Barbarians with stacks of jolting touch.  Litany Unheard posted:I'm doing a playthrough on hard right now and while I'm not a complete scrub this is the sort of stuff that just never occurs to me. Seems like you don't need to do any of this unless you're doing a PotD run, so, what, 95% of players will never need to bother with any of it? You can make the game much easier in dozens of different ways. Shadowflame from wizards is probably my #1 that spell is stupidly good and versatile. It's so good that I remember some people in the old thread said they would never cast it cause it was so busted. When my friends have problems and I don't want to spend the time figuring it out I just tell them to use all those dumb summoning items that they never used. That usually does the trick for them. Rascyc fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 17:50
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Litany Unheard posted:I'm doing a playthrough on hard right now and while I'm not a complete scrub this is the sort of stuff that just never occurs to me. Seems like you don't need to do any of this unless you're doing a PotD run, so, what, 95% of players will never need to bother with any of it? It will still help on lower difficulties as some enemies have high defenses even on those. e: You don't need to do it though. But if you're having an especially hard time landing spells on an enemy you may want to consider it. Or take a second look at what save your spell is targeting and try to choose something the enemy is weaker to instead.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:56
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Having all spells be per-encounter with a per-rest resource meant to empower them also means that we will have to memorize twice the number of spells. If there are about the same number of spells in PoE2 as there were in PoE, this will be a cause for a massive headache when using casters. Not to mention, of course, the inevitable clutter of the UI to present the effects of both Empowered and Regular spells. The whole thing sounds ill thought-out!
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Feb 2, 2017 18:03
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Overall, I think PoE combat, post-3.0 changes, achieved a balance where it was difficult but still fun. I would have expected PoE2 to be a refinement of that experience rather than scrapping core elements of that experience in order to start from scratch.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:05
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X_Toad posted:Having all spells be per-encounter with a per-rest resource meant to empower them also means that we will have to memorize twice the number of spells. If there are about the same number of spells in PoE2 as there were in PoE, this will be a cause for a massive headache when using casters. Not to mention, of course, the inevitable clutter of the UI to present the effects of both Empowered and Regular spells. The whole thing sounds ill thought-out! I believe they're pruning the spell lists to remove redundant and less useful spells, and the system as proposed suggests that you'll never have access to more than three or four spells per spell-level. As for UI clutter, they could just keep the empower effects hidden until you turn on your empower, at which point the tooltips show the empowered effect instead. Rascyc posted:Think they fixed that eventually I currently use shadowflame and slicken to trivialize most "difficult" fights. It's amazing how powerful those effects are. And I will never stop summoning those stupid beetles. Edit: And in other news, with 22 days to go funding for the game is approaching $2 million, with almost 18,000 backers pledging $1.03 million. Assuming they get the full Fig funds of $2 mil (and why wouldn't they) the funding for this is almost guaranteed to break $3.5 million. That's on top of whatever Obsidian has invested on its end. Wicked Them Beats fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 18:08
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X_Toad posted:So does that mean that if you have X level-up spells, Y spells in your grimoire and Z is the number of spells present in both X and Y, then the number of spells you have access to in any specific battle is (X + Y - Z)? If yes, can I ask what is the point of preventing ability bloat in the Priest and Druid if you're just going to do it again with the Wizard? I'd assume that grimoires are going to have fewer spells in them than they do in PoE1 (where they're your entire spell list). Probably themed grimoires with a couple of spells per level that fit the theme, that kind of thing.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:11
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Litany Unheard posted:I believe they're pruning the spell lists to remove redundant and less useful spells, and the system as proposed suggests that you'll never have access to more than three or four spells per spell-level. Litany Unheard posted:As for UI clutter, they could just keep the empower effects hidden until you turn on your empower, at which point the tooltips show the empowered effect instead.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:15
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X_Toad posted:So does that mean that if you have X level-up spells, Y spells in your grimoire and Z is the number of spells present in both X and Y, then the number of spells you have access to in any specific battle is (X + Y - Z)? If yes, can I ask what is the point of preventing ability bloat in the Priest and Druid if you're just going to do it again with the Wizard? This is significantly different from PoE druids and priests who immediately had 9 spells dumped on them when they hit 3rd level.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:19
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I will say that I sincerely doubt the team would have gone with this design before testing its feasibility in terms of UI. I *imagine* that, at the very least, it will be possible to hotkey empowered versions of spells and abilities, and that tooltips will provide reasonable information on the effect on the ability. I *am* curious to learn whether Empower buffs are gonna be applied procedurally, or if the team just created them on a case by case basis (essentially creating two versions for every ability, which sounds like a huge workload).
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Feb 2, 2017 18:22
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Most Empower effects are procedural, with the option for manual override.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:22
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I assumed an empowered fireball will still be a fireball, just with higher numbers (damage/area/accuracy?) so it's not like you'd need to remember much beyond "this will make the spell stronger".
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Feb 2, 2017 18:24
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Harrow posted:I'd assume that grimoires are going to have fewer spells in them than they do in PoE1 (where they're your entire spell list). Probably themed grimoires with a couple of spells per level that fit the theme, that kind of thing.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:24
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Do we at least get different visual effects for empowered spells? So we're not just spamming the same stuff every time and having it look identical?
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Feb 2, 2017 18:25
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X_Toad posted:What does that mean? Fewer slots for each level on the right page, and we can no longer edit that page? Or does it mean that the left section is now specific to each grimoire, is impossible to edit and we can only put spells from that page in the slots on the right, and those slots are now fewer in number? Or is the possibility to build your own spell selection now depending solely on level up and which grimoire you happen to have equipped, with one of the pages gone because it is superfluous? I think it's just that each grimoire is only the right page and you can't edit that page.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:29
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Avalerion posted:I assumed an empowered fireball will still be a fireball, just with higher numbers (damage/area/accuracy?) so it's not like you'd need to remember much beyond "this will make the spell stronger".
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Feb 2, 2017 18:31
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Scorchy posted:Do we at least get different visual effects for empowered spells? So we're not just spamming the same stuff every time and having it look identical? I would be willing to accept a cool flash and sound effect appearing on a character while they use an empowered ability. poo poo feeling/looking cool is an important part of video games that rarely gets to come up in computer rpgs. edit: this is almost certainly too early to say for sure but about how many empowers will a character generally have? Clever Spambot fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 18:33
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