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Neddy Seagoon posted:I love the way that one gets resolved; You want me to read the riot act? It's a moment right up there with Sheridan's planned "Sorry your people were assholes" speech after he blew that Centauri battlecruiser
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Feb 26, 2017 21:10
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Polaron posted:It's a moment right up there with Sheridan's planned "Sorry your people were assholes" speech after he blew that Centauri battlecruiser And if he hadn't been interrupted, he absolutely would have said that speech. "Worth it."
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Feb 26, 2017 22:11
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You know, as much as they can be assholes, I still like the Vorlons. I blame Koch.
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Feb 26, 2017 23:06
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MonsieurChoc posted:You know, as much as they can be assholes, I still like the Vorlons. I blame Koch. Kosh 1 owns. Kosh 2 also owns, but to a much lesser extent.
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Feb 26, 2017 23:36
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:And if he hadn't been interrupted, he absolutely would have said that speech. "Worth it." That fight is one of my favorite moments in B5 because it demonstrates just how far the Centauri have fallen at that point: their big bruiser of a warship gets its poo poo wrecked by a civilian station and a squadron of starfighters built by a much younger race.
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Feb 27, 2017 00:42
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Milky Moor posted:Kosh 1 owns. God dammit, the Kosh brothers are behind everything 
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Feb 27, 2017 00:57
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Polaron posted:That fight is one of my favorite moments in B5 because it demonstrates just how far the Centauri have fallen at that point: their big bruiser of a warship gets its poo poo wrecked by a civilian station and a squadron of starfighters built by a much younger race. True, but that civilian station had recently been upgraded with top-of-the-line weaponry. Plus I don't think the Centauri were really taking the station seriously, they were probably being arrogant (also very in character and fitting for the Centauri!). The salvo which did hit took out one of the dock forks.
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Feb 27, 2017 06:31
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The Babylon station is never a civilian station; it's always been a military outpost foremost and a diplomatic/free port after that. 
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Feb 27, 2017 07:34
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Party Plane Jones posted:The Babylon station is never a civilian station; it's always been a military outpost foremost and a diplomatic/free port after that. How the hell did you get that? The whole point of the Babylon Project was a place for diplomacy and free trade. Hell, it's mentioned in the first two season's opening credits. It's a joint project between the five member races (which is why they sit on the Council) with an EA presence for general operational control and defense.
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Feb 27, 2017 07:43
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Neddy Seagoon posted:How the hell did you get that? The whole point of the Babylon Project was a place for diplomacy and free trade. Hell, it's mentioned in the first two season's opening credits. Well yeah, but... The Earth Alliance hadn't just added a defense grid, they just upgraded a defense grid. B5 was already armed. The station saw off a minor race cruiser handily in S1, with an upgrade punking a Centauri warship isn't at all out of its capabilities.
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Feb 27, 2017 08:17
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mllaneza posted:Well yeah, but... That was because of Clark's Earth-first politics and issues with Raiders. B5 saw a lot of close calls in its first year of operation. Also why the gently caress would you leave a quarter of a million people floating in space without basic defenses for raiders, debris or meteors? The original defense grid's point was to see off the local opportunistic Raiders and pop incoming missiles.
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Feb 27, 2017 08:22
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Neddy Seagoon posted:That was because of Clark's Earth-first politics and issues with Raiders. B5 saw a lot of close calls in its first year of operation. I remember reading, although I don't think this is mentioned in the series itself, that the station was unusually well-armed because of the fates of the previous 4. Still, it's kind of like the UN building sinking an aircraft carrier. But then maybe it could if it was in the middle of nowhere without much backup.
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Feb 27, 2017 11:06
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Was it ever explicit in the novels or anything what happened to Babylons 1-3 or are we supposed to assume the Shadows blew all of them up like they were going to do to Babylon 4?
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Feb 27, 2017 12:08
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Grand Fromage posted:Was it ever explicit in the novels or anything what happened to Babylons 1-3 or are we supposed to assume the Shadows blew all of them up like they were going to do to Babylon 4? Pretty much exactly that. All we know is they got bombed during construction, and given what you see when they deal with Babylon 4 it's not hard to wager who was behind the other attacks.
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Feb 27, 2017 12:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Pretty much exactly that. All we know is they got bombed during construction, and given what you see when they deal with Babylon 4 it's not hard to wager who was behind the other attacks. Wow. This seems incredibly obvious and I feel dumb, but even after War Without End, I never thought to question the official line that it was terrorists. I believed FAKE NEWS. Sad!
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Feb 27, 2017 12:37
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Dirty posted:I remember reading, although I don't think this is mentioned in the series itself, that the station was unusually well-armed because of the fates of the previous 4. Still, it's kind of like the UN building sinking an aircraft carrier. But then maybe it could if it was in the middle of nowhere without much backup. Grand Fromage posted:Was it ever explicit in the novels or anything what happened to Babylons 1-3 or are we supposed to assume the Shadows blew all of them up like they were going to do to Babylon 4? Neddy Seagoon posted:Pretty much exactly that. All we know is they got bombed during construction, and given what you see when they deal with Babylon 4 it's not hard to wager who was behind the other attacks. Sort of. Babylons 1, 2 and 3 were all destroyed during construction. 2 and 3 were definitely sabotaged but I think Babylon 1 might have been an accident during construction (In The Beginning novel, I think). Babylon 4 was the biggest, most expensive station, which is why the Minbari wanted it during their war. (it could also move, which was due to Dirty's point, that the EA didn't want the project to be hosed up again). B5 was actually made using leftover parts and salvage from its predecessors, was the smallest of the five, and required substantial assistance from the Minbari and Centauri governments. I don't think B5's defence grid is ever stated as being particularly special either way, at least not until it is upgraded in Season 2. edit: Actually, Grail points out that B1 was sabotaged during construction as well, and it's implied that the culprits of that particular act were never found. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Feb 27, 2017 |
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Feb 27, 2017 12:39
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Pretty much exactly that. All we know is they got bombed during construction, and given what you see when they deal with Babylon 4 it's not hard to wager who was behind the other attacks. While this is certainly true, I always assumed the only reason the Shadows went after B4 was because they recognized it from the last war.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:28
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Polaron posted:While this is certainly true, I always assumed the only reason the Shadows went after B4 was because they recognized it from the last war. I don't think the Shadows were awake and operating at that point in the timeline. I always thought the losses of B1-3 were the result of, like, Homeguard-types in the EA.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:31
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Polaron posted:While this is certainly true, I always assumed the only reason the Shadows went after B4 was because they recognized it from the last war. I never thought about it before it was brought up just now really, but think about it it; the last thing the Shadows would want is the younger racers unifying, or even co-operating to any extensive degree, which is exactly what a place like a Babylon station would almost certainly achieve. Milky Moor posted:I don't think the Shadows were awake and operating at that point in the timeline. I always thought the losses of B1-3 were the result of, like, Homeguard-types in the EA. They've always had agents in play, even if they themselves weren't active. Why do you think Humans suddenly gained Telepaths a mere couple of centuries prior to the show?
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Feb 27, 2017 13:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I never thought about it before it was brought up just now really, but think about it it; the last thing the Shadows would want is the younger racers unifying, or even co-operating to any extensive degree, which is exactly what a place like a Babylon station would almost certainly achieve. I thought Telepaths were a result of the Vorlons messing around with the younger races, not the Shadows.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:54
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I never thought about it before it was brought up just now really, but think about it it; the last thing the Shadows would want is the younger racers unifying, or even co-operating to any extensive degree, which is exactly what a place like a Babylon station would almost certainly achieve. That was the Vorlons. The Shadows were asleep/dormant until the Icarus woke them up. The relationship between the Vorlons, Shadows and Psi Corp is illustrated further in that particular trilogy.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:59
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JMS confirmed that the Shadows' allies destroyed the first three stations, though it's never explicitly said on the show.Neddy Seagoon posted:I love the way that one gets resolved; You want me to read the riot act? There were a couple of times where it looked like something bad was going to happen to the protagonists but it turned out to be a trick, like Refa and G'Kar in "And the Rock Cried Out" or when it looked like Sheridan's career was over in "Rising Star." I can't be a captain any more? Fine, I'll just be president of the galaxy!
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Feb 27, 2017 17:42
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For the longest time, I really resented the relative moral simplicity of the conflict with the shadows, especially in comparison to how complex the rest of the show was. The shadows really seemed like plain ol' bad guys ruining things for little reason other than that's what they do. Kicking out the Vorlons at the end of it added a little to the complexity of it all, but it didn't quite make up for things.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:14
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SlothfulCobra posted:For the longest time, I really resented the relative moral simplicity of the conflict with the shadows, especially in comparison to how complex the rest of the show was. The shadows really seemed like plain ol' bad guys ruining things for little reason other than that's what they do. While I never liked the idea of an entire race dedicating itself to one sole purpose (and warring with another race who also has a sole purpose), it was made up for by the other characters having to clean up their mess. The climax isn't the Vorlons and the Shadows leaving, it's the final battle over Earth.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:52
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SlothfulCobra posted:For the longest time, I really resented the relative moral simplicity of the conflict with the shadows, especially in comparison to how complex the rest of the show was. The shadows really seemed like plain ol' bad guys ruining things for little reason other than that's what they do. I seem to recall in the commentaries, JMS says when the Shadows got their chance to talk with Sheridan and try to convince him of their point of view, he expected about a third of the fans to sympathize and agree with their philosophy, and he says that's about what he saw on the message boards. It's not that black and white, and while it was shortly before the end the Vorlons were openly revealed as also being wrong, they were always shrouded in mystery and hints of something sinister and unsympathetic. No ships entering their space ever return, and as far back as Kosh's self-revelation while rescuing Sheridan from free-fall, they were shown to have been outright manipulating the younger races for millennia, and even earlier Kosh's ship just summarily blows something up (I forget the details at the moment) and everyone's like  but what are we gonna do about it?
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Feb 27, 2017 19:57
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His ship blew up the Dilgar war criminal and her immortality serum, before Earth forces could scoop 'em up. Shadows would have thought the kinks she built into that stuff were hilarious.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:02
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Bieeardo posted:His ship blew up the Dilgar war criminal and her immortality serum, before Earth forces could scoop 'em up. Shadows would have thought the kinks she built into that stuff were hilarious. Ohhh, yeah, that's right. That's way early in season 1 isn't it? Anyway I think, on reflection, a race of strong telepaths could be more unified in a way we can't fully comprehend. Maybe they're not quite hive minds but they're probably something like the Founders in DS9.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:07
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:Ohhh, yeah, that's right. That's way early in season 1 isn't it? That's also the same episode, I believe, in which Kosh tricks Talia into copying all of her memories into a recording droid, who then gives Kosh the data crystal. I don't think that's ever fully explained. Unless Kosh somehow knew that Talia was a Psi-Corps spy and wanted to be able to blackmail her if necessary.
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Feb 27, 2017 20:47
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Timby posted:That's also the same episode, I believe, in which Kosh tricks Talia into copying all of her memories into a recording droid, who then gives Kosh the data crystal. I don't think that's ever fully explained. Unless Kosh somehow knew that Talia was a Psi-Corps spy and wanted to be able to blackmail her if necessary. That's one of those plots that had to go unused because the actress left, iirc.
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Feb 27, 2017 21:44
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I believe the spoilered portion was going to happen either way, but the backup made in that episode would have been used to restore her as she followed what more or less became Lyta's arc.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:44
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:I believe the spoilered portion was going to happen either way, but the backup made in that episode would have been used to restore her as she followed what more or less became Lyta's arc. That's my understanding, as well. And then of course Jerry Doyle had to be a drunk jackass and run Thompson off the show following their breakup.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:49
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Timby posted:That's also the same episode, I believe, in which Kosh tricks Talia into copying all of her memories into a recording droid, who then gives Kosh the data crystal. I don't think that's ever fully explained. Unless Kosh somehow knew that Talia was a Psi-Corps spy and wanted to be able to blackmail her if necessary. Actually the word of god on that one was that the point of it was to make a backup of Talia's mind in case her sleeper agent personality got activated. That way she could be restored to her former self.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:35
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Timby posted:That's also the same episode, I believe, in which Kosh tricks Talia into copying all of her memories into a recording droid, who then gives Kosh the data crystal. I don't think that's ever fully explained. Unless Kosh somehow knew that Talia was a Psi-Corps spy and wanted to be able to blackmail her if necessary. Kosh 1 wasn't really into blackmail like that. He liked the Younger Races, after all, and was generally a pretty good guy. Especially compared to the rest of the squids.
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Feb 28, 2017 02:00
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Kosh Classic > Cherry Kosh
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Feb 28, 2017 02:03
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We are all Cool Ranch Kosh.
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Feb 28, 2017 02:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Actually the word of god on that one was that the point of it was to make a backup of Talia's mind in case her sleeper agent personality got activated. That way she could be restored to her former self. Her koshback guarantee, if you will.
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Feb 28, 2017 02:08
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Actually the word of god on that one was that the point of it was to make a backup of Talia's mind in case her sleeper agent personality got activated. That way she could be restored to her former self. My memory on the timeline is a little fuzzy, does Kosh the first die before or after Talia's sleeper personality is activated?
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Feb 28, 2017 02:16
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hangedman1984 posted:My memory on the timeline is a little fuzzy, does Kosh the first die before or after Talia's sleeper personality is activated? Well after.
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Feb 28, 2017 02:29
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One of the things I laud B5 for is rolling with the punches of making a serialized TV show. So, your lead has some serious mental health issues, so you need a new lead. Roll with the punches and be better. So, two of your supports got divorced and one of them has some serious mental health issues, roll with the punches and hire a cute red head to distract the crazy man. So, you're getting cancelled a season early. Find a way to make it satisfying. So, you've got a superfluous season, call me Francisco Scaramonga because that third nipple was kinda weird at first but really grows on you after a while as a nice coda. It's good stuff.
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Feb 28, 2017 03:18
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Shbobdb posted:One of the things I laud B5 for is rolling with the punches of making a serialized TV show. So, your lead has some serious mental health issues, so you need a new lead. Roll with the punches and be better. So, two of your supports got divorced and one of them has some serious mental health issues, roll with the punches and hire a cute red head to distract the crazy man. So, you're getting cancelled a season early. Find a way to make it satisfying. So, you've got a superfluous season, call me Francisco Scaramonga because that third nipple was kinda weird at first but really grows on you after a while as a nice coda. Yeah, I've always been pretty impressed at how well they were able to deal with unplanned stuff and usually managing to make them seem like they were the plan the entire time..
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Feb 28, 2017 03:28
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